Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2017-12-07, 11:56

Karavinka wrote:I wonder if other Turkic does the same T/V bullshit, though.

Azeri and Tatar do, and probably all the other ones spoken in ex-USSR (probably from French via Russian, and in Turkish directly from French - the French cultural influence, that is). I don't like the T/V thing either. It's good that other languages spoken in Turkey - Kurdish and Arabic -- didn't borrow it. It is so against the 'chill out and blend in' spirit of the Middle East.

herkesden

Yeah prescriptively it's a mistake. It's made because herkes is often pronounced with the final "z".
Last edited by voron on 2017-12-07, 18:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-07, 17:45

voron wrote:
Karavinka wrote:
Considering what bilmek literally means, yapabilmiyorum would suggests "not knowing how to do it" thus "unable to do," and without -bil-, it doesn't carry that extra.

*Yapabilmiyorum is ungrammatical and simply doesn't exist.

I don't have any sample that seems to show **-il-e-mez pattern

And this does exist.


Please.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2017-12-07, 18:12

Karavinka wrote:Please.

I've edited my post and removed this part, sorry!

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-08, 1:14

586 Cards

Image

Trying to visualize Turkish verbs. Once the verbs are tamed, that's 80% of the important grammar tamed. Maybe a bit hard to see on the picture, but the blue underneath indicate their personal ending types.

possessive types:
→ Short infinitive etme

-di types:
→ Present perfect etti
→ Compound Tense ediyordu
→ Compound Tense edecekti
→ If: ederse

-iyor types:
→ Present impefect ediyor
→ Future edecek

To be determined
→ Potential edebil
→ Irrealis eder
→ Passive edil
→ Evidential etmiş
→ Obligation etmeli

Seems like still a way to go to fill this little map. And their negatives too. I think the old question of ma vs maz is case-by-case, with some finite verb forms preferring one or the other.



IF: -se/sa + pronominal endings

I'll try not to think the difference between this and eğer. If a language only has one way of saying something, that's probably a half-baked conlang.

1sg. Söylesemde anlamazsın. Even if I were to say, you won't understand.
2sg. Bir daha böyle bir şey söylersen affetmem seni! Say such a thing again and I won't forgive you!
3sg. Derin kuyular kazılmalı, eğer güzel bir su isteniyorsa. Deep wells should be dug, if one wants clear water.
1pl. Bundan sonra, ne zaman istersek birbirimizi görebiliriz zaten. After this, we can meet each other whenever we want, after all.
2pl. Klavyeden başka bir şey çalamam, ama kabul ederseniz bende size katılmak isterim. I can only play piano, but if you would accept I'd like to join you.

This morpheme itself was noted since some time, but I couldn't locate 1pl. Now I have a paradigm:

-sem (-mezsem)
-sen (-mezsen)
-se (-mezse)
-sek (-mezsek)
-seniz (-mezseniz)

And thus I feel safe to determine this to be: -di type. And this answers one of the previous questions left unanswered.

Bir hafta içerisinde dördüncü üyeyi bulamazsak, kulüp katatılacak.
If we don't find a fourth member within this week, the club will be closed.

What is even this. I'm highlighting the whole thing so I get reminded of this thing existing in my deck. I put this under -ecek forms because it somehow looked like it, but maybe it's bula-maz-sa-k or bul-amaz-sa-k, with -k being equivalent to ~の事. Will need to wait for other examples.


For some reason, it didn't come to me that -k could also be 1pl ending. That said, -k does seem to deserve another look. And...


Relativizing -ki

Yui, galiba bu telefonun ekranindakiyle aynı değil mi?
Yui, isn't it the same on your phone screen?

However I phrase this in English will make this awkward. I'll try a bit differently.

telefon-un ekran-inda-ki-(y)le
携帯-の-画面-で-の事-と

Similarly to Japanese -no koto, it feels like -ki in this sentence seems to wrap the whole phrase bu telefonun ekraninda as an NP, and takes a case ending.


üzere

1 Neredeyse çıldırmak üzereyim, aslında daima iyi olan ben. I'm about to go crazy, I'm always good in fact.
2 Açlıktan ölmek üzereyim, yiyecek birşeyler alalım. I'm dying from hunger, let's buy something to eat.

#1 was from Nov 9, and #2 from Dec 7. Meaning-wise, it seems to suggest proximate future, and requires long infinitive -mak/mek.

Ben buradayım, o yüzden sakın gözünü üzerimden ayırma! I'm here, so don't separate your eyes from (on top of) me.
Bu mesaj üzerinde çok düşündüm, belki birisine ulaşır, kim bilir? I thought much about this message, it might reach someone, who knows?
Sadece, kortun üzerindeki kiraz çiçeklerini görüp tehlikeli olabilceğini düşündüm. I just saw the sakura petals on the court and thought it might be dangerous.

So, as a location adverb, üzerim/üzerin/üzerin... i.e. üzer(e)-im? The last -e at the end of üzere is lost?

And as the... what do I call it. Say, this modal üzereyim. Proximate future would be a pretty common thing, but at the same time I'm not seeing much of this. I'm just noting its existence here, I cannot guess what the other person forms might be.


Genitive wrap after ne/bir

-Bir randevuda hayvanat bahçesine gitmek normal değil mi?
-Hayvan gibi kokuyor... Ve ne 'rendevu'su?

Oh, ve bir de masallardaki gibi beyaz bir atın olmalı ve gelip almalısın beni.

Screw this. (╯‵□′)╯︵┻━┻
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-09, 7:26

643 Cards

Dear Thread, I have finished reading my first book in Turkish. It's a bit sad that honor goes to the manga adaptation of Konami's conspiracy to lower the Japanese fertility rate, but I came across a Turkish translation of it online and I had read it not too long ago in German (don't ask), so I knew the contents. And Rinko is waifu.

I've been adding more cards than before, I think I can handle 20-30 new per day. But not much time left to do grammar today before going to sleep, so just one more Hadise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCOG2YhkIN8

Hadise - Melek

Artik bakma yüzüme Don't look at my face now
Konusma, bitti Don't talk, it's over
Ve sözün yok And you have no word

Asksa gitti bak iste As for love it's gone, look.
Yalanlara kurban It's sacrificed to the lies
Ve özrün yok And you have no excuse

Sana yetse If you were content
Kalbim mutluluk olurdu My heart would have been happy
Aşkın sonundaki varışın Your love would have been fulfilled in the end

Yarı yolda Halfway through
Döndün ihanetinle You turned to deceive me
Onunlaymış senin yarışın Your race with her

Bulamazsın You can't find it
Dokunamazsın You can't touch it
Bendeki sana yabancı bir yürek There's a strange heart for you in me
Meleğindim I was your angel
Kanadımı kırdın You broke my wings
Uçmuyor artık Can't fly now
Aşkınla o Melek The angel above

Uçmaz artık o It doesn't fly now
Ne yapsan da Whatever you do
Olamazsın You can't do it
Yüzüme bakma Don't look at my face
Bir yabancıyım tanımazsın You don't see I'm a stranger

I like the way she sings here, much more than the other two songs - I like the husky tone. Though these seem to be her older songs and she has changed her style later on. The video itself is more to my liking, I prefer style with low-budget than high-budget with no style. (Of course, style with high-budget would be even better.)

The Hebrew part of my brain first thought melek would be "king", and realized it's mal'ak, "messenger."
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-10, 17:31

Just a few quick memoranda.

Reduplication?

- durdurmak
- bembeyazlık
- masmavı

ne kadar ... olsa da

no matter ...
どんなに …でも、だとしても

-lerce

-binlerce
-yüzlerce

istemek/gerek

yapmak istiyorum vs yapmani istiyorum

- long infinitive + istemek
- short infinitive + personal ending + accusative "I want ... to do ..."

analogously but not quite, yapmam gerekiyor. "I need to do X", but it's probably better to think of gerek in line of: il faut.

bir-compounds

bir 'one'
biri 'someone'
birden 'suddenly, at once'
birkaç 'a few'
birçok 'a lot'
birbiri 'each other'
birşey 'something'
hiçbir 'not at all' <- maybe not a true compound, hiçbir şey 'nothing at all'
birleşmek 'unite'
birlik 'unit'
birlikte 'together'

-arak

So far, the best analogy of -arak that I can think of at the moment is Korean -로서.

1. as ...ing
2. by means of ...ing

I do want to see more of this form before concluding though.

And just a few extras

Şey... şu anda atari salonuna gitmek pek iyi bir fikir değil.Well... going to the arcade at this moment isn't a good idea at all.
Atari may become forgotten in history, but Turks will remember at least...

İkinci kişiliğim gülümsedi. My alter ego smiled.
How do you say "second character" then?

Şimdi, artık, şuan -- is there more? I'll see.

And let's try reading something of Wikipedia. It's interesting to note how sınıf translates "class" as in 1. classroom in school 2. social class and 3. vehicle/ship type. It may not be a loanword, but still a loan translation.


Zuikaku

Uçak Gemisi Zuikaku, Japon İmparatorluk Donanmasında Shōkaku-sınıfı uçakgemisiydi. Uçakları Birleşik Devletlerin resmen II. Dünya Savaşına girmesine neden olan Pearl Harbor saldırısında görev aldı ve savaşın en önemli birkaç çarpışmasında yer alarak, en sonunda Cape Engaño Deniz Muharebesinda batırıldı.

The Aircraft Carrier Zuikaku was the Shokaku-class aircraft carrior in Japanese Imperial Navy. Its planes took a role in the Attack on Pearl Harbor which was the reason the United States officially entered the World War II, and while taking part in many of the most important battles of the war, it finally sank in the Battle of Cape Engaño.
Last edited by Karavinka on 2017-12-11, 7:06, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-11, 6:59

700 Cards

Yeah, exactly 700. I didn't cut it at 700 on purpose, it just somehow did. I wanted to try reading a few more paragraph-length texts -- though this is still more of a hacking than reading. I'm looking up a lot of words, and I do need to use a lot of what I already know about the topic to make sense out of the text. Context is important.

...why don't I pick something about Turkey? Turkish articles about Turkey, you know it's going to be way too long and too detailed. Not yet.



Bismarck'ın son muharebesi

Yaralı Bismarck artık kaçınılmaz sonunu bekliyordu. 27 Mayıs 1941 sabahı HMS Rodney ve HMS King George V zırhlıları Bismarck'a ateş açtılar. Manevra kabiliyeti olmayan Bismarck karşı koymaya çalışsa da kısa bir süre içerisinde bütün ana silahlarını kaybetti. Bismarck'ın savunma gücünü kaybetmesinin ardından kısa mesafeden ateş açan HMS Rodney gemi güverte üstünü tam anlamıyla tahrip etti. Ancak hala batmayan Bismarck'ın yardımına Alman denizaltılarını çağırmış olabileceğinden şüphelenen İngiliz donanması zırhlılarını bölgeden çekti.

HMS Dorsetshire kruvazörü çok yakın mesafeden yanan gemiyi tekrar torpilledi. Ancak bunun da gemiyi batırmaya yetmediği gözlendi. Saat 10:40'da mürettebatının tahrip kalıplarını çalıştırmasıyla alabora olan Bismarck battı.

Damaged Bismarck was waiting for her inevitable end. In the morning of May 27 1941, HMS Rodney and HMS King George V fired at the Battleship Bismarck. Bismarck, unable to manoeuver, tried to resist but soon after her weapons failed. Following Bismarck losing her defensive power, HMS Rodney fired at a close distance and literally destroyed above the ship's deck. However, the British navy pulled their battleships away from the area as they doubted they could have called German submarines to aid Bismarck which was not sinking.

The cruiser HMS Dorsetshire torpedoed the burning ship again from very close distance. However, even this didn't seem sufficient to sink the ship. At 10:40, while her crews trying to work the destroyed plates, capsized Bismarck sank.



MO harekâtı

Nisan 1942 sonlarında Japonlar, Yeni Gine'nin güneydoğusundaki Port Moresby'de ve Solomon Adalarının güneyindeki Tulagi'de hava üsleri kurarak Avustralya ve Yeni Kaledonya arasındaki Mercan Denizinin denetimini ele geçirmeye hazırlanıyorlardı.

Japonların Port Moresby'yi ele geçirme planını haber alan Müttefikler eldeki bütün hava ve deniz kuvvetlerini alarma geçirdiler. Japonların 3 Mayıs'ta Tulagi'ye çıkarma yapmaları üzerine, Tuğamiral Fletcher komutasındaki keşif kuvvetine bağlı bir uçak gemisinden havalanan ABD uçakları Japon çıkarma grubuna saldırarak bir destroyeri, birkaç mayın tarama ve çıkarma gemisini batırdı.

4 Mayıs'ta Rabaul'den yola çıkan asıl Japon kuvvetlerini oluşturan deniz birliklerinin çoğu doğuya doğru dolambaçlı bir yol izledi.

At the end of April 1942, the Japanese were preparing to take control of the Coral Sea, between New Caledonia and Australia, by creating air bases in Port Moresby in the southeast of New Guinea and in Tulagi in the south of Solomon Islands.

Having learned of the Japanese plan to take Port Moresby, the Allies alarmed all air and naval forces in their hands. As the Japanese were about to head to Tulagi on May 3, the ABD aircrafts flying from an aircraft carrier belonging to the reconnaissance forces under Admiral Fletcher's command raided the Japanese sortie group, and sank one destroyer, several minesweepers and amphibious landing ship.

The naval units constituting the original Japanese forces coming out of Rabaul on May 4 followed mostly a winding road towards the east.



Midway Muharebesi

Midway Muharebesi (Japon kod adı: MI Harekâtı), Muharebenin amacı stratejik Midway adası'nı almak ve Amerikan uçak gemilerini yok etmekti. Bu amaçla toplanan Japon armadasında 200 parçalık Japon filosunda 4 uçak gemisi ve 11 zırhlı bulunuyordu. Buna karşılık Amerikalılar 3 uçak gemisi etrafında 76 parçalık bir filo hazırlayabilmişlerdi.

Ne var ki Japonlar güçlerini dağıttılar. İki uçak gemisini, Amerikalıları kuzeye çekmek için Aleut Adaları’na doğru göndermişler, iki uçak gemisini de esas filonun çok gerisindeki çıkarma filosuna tahsis etmişlerdi. Japon şifresini çözen Amerikalılar birçok bocalamaya ve USS Yorktown'ın bu sefer batmasına rağmen, Japon İmparatorluk Filosu’nun belkemiği olan en önemli dört Japon uçak gemisini batırdılar.

The Battle of Midway (Japanese codename: Operation MI), the goal of the battle was to take strategic Midway Island and to destroy American aircraft carriers. With this goal, Japan's combined fleet had 200 ships, and within the fleet 4 aircraft carriers and 11 battleships. Against this, the US had prepared 3 aircraft carriers among the fleet of 76.

However, Japanese forces were scattered. Two aircraft carriers were sent to draw Americans to the north towards Aleutian Islands. They assigned two aircraft carriers to this fleet which was way behind the main fleet. Americans, who decoded Japan's ciphers, although they were quite confused and lost Yorktown during this campaign, they sank Japan's four most important aircraft carriers, the backbone of Imperial Japanese Navy.



----------------------
The next morning. I'm just adding to this post. The text is largely as found on the link, with slight modifications: I don't really need USS and HJIMS and HMS.


Shokaku

Japon Uçak Gemisi Shōkaku, Japon İmparatorluk Donanması'nda, kendi sınıfının ilk uçak gemisidir. Kızkardeşi Zuikaku ile beraber Pearl Harbor saldırısı ve Mercan Denizi Savaşı da dahil olmak üzere II. Dünya Savaşı'nın Pasifik Cephesinde önemli saldırılarda yer alarak ün salmıştır.

Shōkaku, Yokosuka Tersanesinde 12 Aralık 1937 tarihinde başlanarak 1 Haziran 1939 tarihinde denize indirilmiş ve 8 Ağustos 1941 tarihinde hizmete girmiştir. Shōkaku sınıfı gemiler Yamato sınıfı zırhlıları da içeren program dahilinde tasarlandılar. Etkili modern tasarımı, 30,000 tonluk deplasmanı ve 34 knotluk (63 km/s) yüksek hızı ile Shōkaku 70-80 uçak taşıyabiliyordu. Geliştirilmiş savunmasıyla, akranları Müttefik uçakgemileri Coral Denizi ve Santa Cruz çarpışmalarında onu ciddi savaş hasarlarına ve uğramış olduğu torpido saldırılarına rağmen saf dışı edemedi.

Japanese aircraft carrier Shokaku was the first aircraft carrier of her class of the Imperial Japanese Navy. Along with the sister Zuikaku, she gained fame for taking place in major battles of the Pacific Theater of the World War II including the Raid on Pearl Harbor and the Battle of Coral Sea.

Shokaku began in December 12 1937 in Yokosuka Shipyard and was launched on June 1 1939, and entered service in August 8, 1941. Shoukaku-class was designed within the program that also included Yamato-class battleships. An effective modern design, with 30,000 ton displacement and 34 knot high speed, Shokaku could carry 70-80 planes. With her improved defense, the Allied aircraft carrier peers could not eliminate her, despite inflicting serious battle damage and suffering torpedo attacks in Coral Sea and Santa Cruz engagements.


Shōkaku ve kardeşi Zuikaku, Japon 5. Uçak gemisi Bölüğünü oluşturuyordu ve uçaklarını Pearl Harbor saldırısından hemen önce tam zamanında elde ettiler. Shokaku'nun uçakları 15 Mitsubishi A6M avcı uçağı 27 Aichi D3A pike bombardıman uçağı ve 27 Nakajima B5N torpido bombardıman uçağından oluşuyordu.

Shōkaku, Zuikaku ile birlikte Kido Butai'ye katıldı ve Ocak 1942 Rabaul çarpışması ve Mayıs ayındaki Coral Denizi savaşı gibi Japonya'nın savaşın başlarındaki saldırı dizilerine iştirak etti. Mart 1942'de Hint Okyanusu akınında Akagi, Zuikaku, Soryu ve Hiryu uçak gemileri ile birleşerek Colombo akınına katıldı. Amiral Nagumo, düşmanın destek birimlerine ağır hasar vererek başarıya ulaştı.

Shokaku and her sister Zuikaku constituted Japan's 5th Aircraft Carrier Division and obtained planes just in time before the Attack on Pearl Harbor. Shoukaku's planes were made of 15 Mitsubishi A6M fighters, 27 Aichi D3A dive bombers and 27 Nakajima B5N torpedo bombers.

Shokaku joined the Kido Butai along with Zuikaku, and participated in a series of Japan's initial raids in the war like the engagement in Rabaul on January 1942 and Coral Sea in the month of May. In March 1942, she joined the Indian Ocean Raid in bombing Colombo, along with the aircraft carriers Akagi, Zuikaku, Soryu and Hiryu. Admiral Nagumo was successful to inflict severe damage to the enemy support units.


Görevin başarılmasından sonra, görev gücü Coral Denizi'ne yol almadan önce İngiliz uçak gemisi Hermes ile Cornwall ve Dorsetshire destroyerlerini bularak batırdı. Shokaku, Lexington'ın batırılmasına yardımcı oldu ama dönüşte Yorktown'ın uçağı tarafından birkaç hasar aldı.

Tamirattan sonra Shokaku, kardeşiyle birlikte 1942 yılındaki iki çarpışmaya daha katıldı: Doğu Solomonlar savaşı (Enterprise'a hasar verdiler) ve Santa Cruz Savaşı (Hornet'ı batırdılar fakat Shokaku bir kez daha pike bombardıman uçakları tarafından ağır hasar gördü.)

After succeeding the mission, the task force found the British aircraft carrier Hermes with the destroyers Cornwall and Dorsetshire and sank them before heading to the Coral Sea. Shokaku helped in sinking Lexington, but took some damage from Yorktown's planes on the way back.

After repairing, Shokaku entered battle twice again in the year 1942 with her sister: the Battle of East Solomons (damaged Enterprise) and the Battle of Santa Cruz (sank Hornet, but Shokaku suffered severe damage again from dive bombers.)



The article feels a little incomplete as Shokaku's service would continue until 1944, and damaging Enterprise was most likely not Shokaku, but another carrier present in the battle, Jun'yo. I was a bit confused with the description of Midway as well, as I first misunderstood Turkish as if saying 2 out of 4 carriers were sent North, which was not true. Some words are a bit elusive, such as çıkarma, which I understood as "landing" or "sortie" in different contexts, but I may have mistaken.

Anyways, I took a brief look at Shokaku article and decided on this one as every paragraph contained the proper name, so even if I were to review these cards after long intervals, I would remember what the paragraph was about. Compared to what Turkish Wikipedia has on DKM Bismarck, it's compact to fit into Anki. Context.

The hardest thing about these kinds of articles? It's the numbers. I can't read them. It might be one thing I actually need to look up.

-----------------------------------------

Muharebenin amacı stratejik Midway adası'nı almak ve Amerikan uçak gemilerini yok etmekti.

This is the first time I've seen where the long infinitive -mak/mek followed by a tense marker, but yok etmek here seems to be treated as a noun.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-13, 12:15

745 Cards

Cleaning up a few nagging things.

Case drop

Karavinka wrote:
This is a different topic, whether Turkish can drop accusative. Never in inflecting languages, but KO/JP at least drop cases when contextually obvious at least.


I forgot about this topic existing for some time.


1. Sen şarkı söyleyeceksin, ben dans edeceğim. You will sng, I will dance.
2. Bak! Öncüler civarda yürüyor ve Lenin'e şarkılar söylüyorlar. Look! Pioneers are marching, singing songs to Lenin.

Let's think about this. With #1, I thought şarkı söylemek and dans etmek may have been treated as a single word just spelled as two, and then it'd make sense why it has no accusative. But #2... if *şarkısöylemek is one word, then... why would it take -lar?

3. Ancak parmak uçların sertleşip nasır tutana kadar pratik yaparsan gerçek bir gitarist olabilirsin. However, you will become a real guitarist if you practice until your fingertips harden and get corns.
4. Isınmanızı bitirdikten sonra, ikili gruplara ayrılıp, pratiğe başlayın. After you've done warming up, separate in groups of twos, and start practicing.

This time pratiğe takes a case, a dative. Pratik yapmak doesn't.

5. Yapacağım bugün size çok korkunç bir duyuru. I'll make a terrible announcement to you today.
6. Ben uyuşturucuyu sevmiyorum ama uyuşturucu beni seviyor. I don't like the drugs but the drugs like me.

Turkish isn't afraid to use fillers to avoid -VV and will insist on endings most of the times, as in uyuşturucuyu... but I don't see one here in duyuru. But from what I can see from dictionary entries, the root is verbal, with duyurmak.

What I can conclude at this point:

Turkish may allow case drops in special circumstances, most likely when the verb and the object are lexicalized and treated as one word. However, it's pretty insistent on using cases in most circumstances, and careless omission of cases is probably bad Turkish.

Lazım

Gitarist olmak için çok utangaçım. Gitarist grubun kalbi gibidir, tüm gruba öncülük etmesi lazım. Sahnede doğal olmazsan, dinleyicilerinde ilgisini çekmezsin değil mi?
I'm too shy to be a guitarist. A guitarist is like the center of the group, needs to lead the whole group. If you're not natural on the stage, you don't draw attention of the audiences, wouldn't it?

Üzgünüm, ama bugün kulübe gitmem lazım.
Sorry, but today I need to go to the club.

Lazım seems to convey some kind of necessity, but it's hard to pin down with only two examples. Both examples suggest something about the role (as a guitarist in a band, a member of the club).


Zamana ihtiyacım var, eroine değil / Alkole veya nikotine değil
Ne yardım lazım bana, ne kafein / Tek istediğim dinamit ve terebentin
I need time, no heroine / no alcohol or nicotine
I don't need help, no caffeine / Just want dynamite and turpentine

Tek ihtiyacımız biraz cesaret! We just need a little courage!
Şey... Başka birine ihtiyacım yok. Yalnız olmak tamamen iyi. Well... I don't need anyone. It's just fine being alone.

Throwing in ihtiyaç because they seem to convey similar meanings. I don't think it's about a role anymore, but I still think both express necessity. What's the difference? I doubt Turks know the difference. This is probably one of the things that you just do without thinking.


-arak

Sanal sınırları aşarak, dolup taşan bilgilerin içinde seninle birlikte gelişmek istiyorum
ヴァーチャルの垣根を超えて 溢れかえる情報の中
Reaching the virtual borders, in the midst of overflowing information, I want to evolve with you.

Eteğimi sallayıp hava atarak, bana bakmanı sağlayacağım!
スカートひらり見せ付けるのよ 君の視線奪ってみせるの
I'll make you look at me, throwing my skirt waving in the air!


Plus a couple more examples that are not olarak.

Eğer kimsecıkler yoksa, şimdi klübe katılarak başkan olabilirim... Bu hiçde kötü değil.
If there's no one, I can join the club now and be the president... This isn't bad at all.

Böyle düşünerek yalnız hissetmiyor musun?
Don't you feel alone thinking so?

Screw this. I can't seem to find a common theme around here other than this is not a sentence final. Maybe that's just what it is; while -ip is a serialization, this might simply be: and.


-arak

So far, the best analogy of -arak that I can think of at the moment is Korean -로서.

1. as ...ing
2. by means of ...ing

I do want to see more of this form before concluding though.


İngiliz uçak gemisi Hermes ile destroyerlerini bularak batırdı. They discovered and sank British carrier Hermes and destroyers.

Nope, wrong guess. I'm going back to the first guess, that this is simply and, or: upon which. One thing happens, and soon after another thing happens, possibly but not necessarily as a cause-and-effect. Or?

Dünya Savaşı'nın Pasifik Cephesinde önemli saldırılarda yer alarak ün salmıştır. She gained fame by taking place in major battles of the Pacific Theater in WW2.

This appears closer in meaning to the second guess. What I'm concluding for now: it does both.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-14, 5:48

miş ... and others

Not about the meaning, but this time about its location.

Bu tarz hikayeleri hiç anlamamışımdır. I felt like I didn't understand this genre of stories at all.
Şimdiden gelmişsin, Kobayakawa. Baya erkencisin. You're already here, Kobayakawa. You're early.

It seems that -miş can be followed directly by the personal ending. -im/-sin/-0. I can't build a paradigm because I'd need a 1pl. While at it, a little updated version of the basic paradigms:

Image

It's goddamn annoying that I need to locate a 1pl as it's the only person that's different across all four and in fact, this is what's taking me so long to build the other paradigms. And please ignore the mistake with 1sg ediyorum. Well, well. But let's compare these two.

1. Diyelim bir füzyon reaktörüne dalmayı denersem, yine eskisi gibi uyuyabilecekmişim gibi hissettim Say, if I try diving into a fusion reactor, I feel like I could sleep like in the past
2. Her gece seninleymiş gibi hissediyorum. Every night I feel like I'm with you.

Both express how the speaker feels like, but one has mişim gibi, the other miş gibi. When I come across contradictions like this, the chances are usually:

a. The two express different things altogether.
b. It doesn't matter and both forms are correct.
c. One of them is either overcorrecting or being sloppy.

I just hope it's not a. If it's b or c, I can just live with it, but if it turns out to be a, I'll need some Tylenol.

And to locate this damn thing in a verbal chain:

Image

I'm not sure which comes closer to the root, whether it's passive -il or potential -ebil.

The ones that directly modify the root's meaning, the causative -tir and la/lan/laş seem to be sharing the same slot for the present, but if I locate one example where both morphemes, I'll feel more confident. I do know ulaştırmak, but that one's a bit fishy as I'm not sure if ulaş- should even be broken into **u-laş.

Since future -ecek and imperfect -iyor either don't appear together or do so very rarely, the NEG is tentatively placed before -iyor, but this can change. I need to look into the negatives in more detail, and NEG may as well be possible in front of any tense marker.

But for now, let's settle that miş is primarily antepenultimate, near the end, and can be followed only by the perfect di and pronominal endings. Dir? That thing gets attached to anything, I'm not going to count that.

There are more holes and gaps regarding this table of infix order, but I'll leave it as it is for now. Delving into further details into this will require something of an undergrad linguistics paper level of workload, it's just not cost-effective. I'll just give myself more time until I develop an instinct for this.

EDIT:
Eğer Nagato'yla zaman geçirmemiz gerekiyorsa gidilebilecek tek bir yer vardı.

Phew. The passive il does come before the potential -ebil.

------------------------------------------

And for the record, I'm going to admit cheating. I looked up the number system. I could read 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 10, 30, 50, 100, 1000 until then.

I can just wait until the months or days of the weeks to show on my decks, but with numbers it's a bit more annoying as they're usually not spelled out.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-14, 13:02

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfKDK-yiUCo
Demet Akalın - Toz Pembe

Senin için aşk boş bir laftı, Love is an empty word for you
Dilinden düşüp de kırıldı It falls from your tongue and breaks
Tozpembe hayaller vardı, There were light-pink dreams
Pembesi gitti, tozu kaldı But the pink is gone, only dust is left

Beklenen final geldi çattı, The expected ending has come
Yıkıldı kapı duvar Door, wall collapsed
Seni bilmem ama, I don't know you but
Benim kalbimde In my heart
Birçok derin yara var There are many deep wounds

İstediğim şey çok değildi ki, I didn't want much
Sadece biraz sadakat Just a bit of loyalty
Ama sende değil, But as for you, no
Sana gönül verende asıl büyük kabahat Giving you my heart was the original big mistake

Dertsiz başıma dert açtın, You brought trouble to my trouble-less head
Hayatımda kısa süre yer aldın, You took place for a short while in my life
Gönül kapımı çalıp da kaçtın, You knocked the door of my heart and ran away
Ruh halin neydi anlayamadım I don't understand what was your state of soul

I was trying to find what tozpembe meant while I was editing this Anki card:

Biliyor musunuz... Ayda yürüyebilen Armstrong ve Aldrin için her şey ne kadar tozpembe olsa da... ben gemide kalmak zorunda kalan kişi için üzülüyorum...
You know... it would be so wonderful for Armstrong and Aldrin to walk on the moon... but I feel sorry for the person who had to stay in the ship.

Tozpembe seems to mean literally "pink dust", which seems to mean "light pink." That itself would be an interesting metaphor, probably akin to "rosy" in English; and the song is playing on words. I liked the song too, which is a nice bonus.


-memeli

Negative of -meli. This was half-expected as the negative should come in the same place as in the short infinitive.

Ancak yeni milenyuma adım atmamıza izin veren kişileri de unutmamalıyız! However, we shouldn't forget the people who allowed us to take our step to the new millenium!
Ona daha fazla yakınlaşmamalısın. You shouldn't get closer to her.

Thanks to the 1pl, I am quite sure with:

etmemeliyim
etmemelisin
etmemeli
etmemeliyiz
etmemelisiniz


-abilir

edebilirim
edebilirsin
edebilir
edebiliriz
edebilirsiniz

etmeyebilirim
etmeyebilirsin
etmeyebilir
etmeyebiliriz
etmeyebilirsiniz

ediyoruz-type

edebilirsem
edebilirsen
edebilirse
edebilirsek
edebilirseniz

etmeyebilirsem
etmeyebilirsen
etmeyebilirse
etmeyebilirsek
etmeyebilirseniz

ettik-type

Ama kabul ederseniz bende size katılmak isterim. But if you would accept I'd join you.
Merak etmeyin hala yapabilirsiniz! Devam edebilecek haldesiniz değil mi? Don't worry, you can still do it! You can keep going, can't you?
Belki bana inanmayabilirsin, ama ben bu çağa ait biri değilim. Maybe you wouldn't believe me, but I don't belong to this time period.

I'm expecting this pattern for all irrealis -ir forms, but the negative remains a question mark. What would be the negative of ederim, for example? Hmm.


-irdi

ederdim
ederdin
ederdi
ederdik
ederdiniz

Kendimi bir tarafa bırakıp, her şeyi değiştirirsem eğer, yine de siyaha çevirirdim. Leaving myself aside, if I were to change everything, then I'd turn everything to black.

Something I noticed a few days ago. It's actually a pretty old card, but I guess I wasn't paying much attention back then. I expect **edermedi for the negative, but I cannot be sure until I see it.

Wiktionary gives siyah as Persian loanword, as opposed to Arabic beyaz. Hmm, wasn't there ak as well? As in Ak Koyunlu.


-emez

Sonuçta, geriye dönüp kaderini değiştiremezsin. In the end, you cannot go back and change fate.

Must find 1pl present negative. I'm just leaving a note here so I'll hopefully remember what I need to look for.


-madi vs mazdi

First, paradigm.

etmedim
etmedin
etmedi
etmedik
etmediniz

edemezdim
edemezdin
edemezdi
edemezdik
edemezdiniz

I'm not sure if **ededi can be a thing or not. Either way, the complimentary distribution seems to be:

1. use maz/mez with passive il or potential a/e.
2. use ma/me otherwise.

At least when it's followed by the perfect ending -di.


Simple present negative

Yürümez bu iş böyle It doesn't work that way.
Umarım bütün o iskencelerden sonra travma geçirmez. I hope after all these tortures she doesn't get traumatized.
Sıradan insan olmadiğı sürece, erkek ya da kız olsun farketmez. So long as it's not an ordinary human, it doesn't matter if it's a boy or a girl.
Nereden veya hangi zamandan geldiğimi sana söyleyemem. I cannot tell you where or what time I came from.

I'm almost about to think this is done to disambiguate from the negative imperative, especially with the third person, otherwise it's going to be etme, same as negative imperative. But even then, 1sg bilmem is already ambiguous and the meaning is context-dependent. Is it short infinitive+1sg or root+negative+1sg? Both.

And I definitely need more plural examples. Either I'm blind or I just don't have one in my deck. A partial paradigm:

etmem
etmezsin
etmez
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-15, 12:25

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A little more practice with expositions. I don't know why, but I'm kinda in the WW2 mood the last few days.


T-34

T-34, 1940 ve 1958 yılları arasında üretimi yapılan Sovyet orta sınıf tankıdır. Çoğu otoriteye göre II. Dünya Savaşı'nın en iyi tankı olarak kabul edilir. T-34 o güne kadarki tank tasarımı anlayışını değiştirmiş, ondan sonraki bütün tanklar T-34'leri örnek almıştır.

Doğu cephesinde Alman Ordusu bu tank karşısında çaresiz kalmıştır. Tiger ve Panther tanklarının çıkışı ile T-34 savaş alanındaki mutlak üstünlüğünü kaybetse de, Rusya iklimine uygunluğu, kolay üretilebilirliği ve bunun getirisi olarak tartışılmaz sayı üstünlüğü ile Alman askerleri arasında korku salan bir silah olarak kalmıştır.

T-34 ateş gücünü, hızı ve sağlamlığı dengeli bir biçimde bir araya toplamıştır. Ayrıca eğimli zırh tasarımı, isabet eden mermilerin bir çoğunun tanka zarar vermeden sekmesini sağlamıştır. Bazı askeri tarihçiler onu dünyanın ilk ana muharebe tankı olarak addederler.

T-34, BT serisi tanklardan tasarlanmış olup Sovyet Servisindeki BT serisi tanklar ve T-26 tanklarıyla değiştirilmesi planlanmıştır. II. Dünya Savaşı ve sonrası dönemde SSCB zırhlı birliklerinin kullandığı temel tank sınıfı haline gelmiştir. Bununla birlikte savaş sonrası dönemde Varşova Paktı ve üçüncü dünya ülkelerine çok sayıda ihraç edilmişlerdir.

T-34 is a Soviet medium-tank produced between years 1940 and 1958. According to many authorities, it's regarded as the best tank of World War II. T-34 has changed the understanding of the tank design of the day, and all tanks follow T-34's model afterwards.

The German Army on the Eastern Front remained helpless against this weapon. With the debut of Tiger and Panther tanks, T-34 lost its absolute superiority on the battlefield but with its suitability to Russian climate, ease of production and the numerical superiority resulting from this, it remained as a weapon to be feared by German soldiers.

T-34 put firepower, speed and stability together in a balanced form in one place. Further, its sloping armor design allowed most of the hitting bullets to skip, without damaging the tank. Some military historians regard it as the world's first major battle tank.

T-34 was designed from BT series of tanks, and was planned to replace BT series and T-26 tanks in the Soviet Service. It came to the status of the default tank class for the USSR armored units to use in the World War II and afterwards. With this, in the postwar period it was exported in large numbers to Warsaw Pact and Third World nations.



U-bot

II. Dünya Savaşı'nın başında denizaltı filosu komutanı olan Karl Dönitz'in geliştirdiği kurt kapanı taktiği ile bu denizaltılar özellikle savaşın ilk 2-3 yılında müttefik konvoylarına ağır kayıplar verdirmiş, ikmallerini aksatmışlardır. II. Dünya Savaşı'nda Atlantik'teki savaşın baş kahramanıydı. Savaşta Almanya en büyük denizaltı filosuna sahipti.

At the beginning of WW2, with the wolf trap (Wolfpack) tactics developed by the submarine fleet captain Karl Dönitz, these submarines inflicted severe damage to the Allied convoys particularly in the first 2-3 years of the war, shaking their reinforcement. He was the top hero of the World War II's Atlantic war. Germany owned the largest submarine fleet in the war.

Oysaki I. Dünya Savaşı'nın sonunda imzalanan Versay Barış Antlaşması'na göre Almanya'nın deniz kuvvetleri 6 kruvazör, 6 savaş gemisi ve 12 destroyerden fazla olamazdı. Ama Almanya antlaşmaya uymamış özellikle Hitler döneminde çokça U-bot üretmişti.

However according to the Versaille Peace Treaty signed after the First World War Germany could not have a navy of more than six cruisers, 6 warships and 12 destroyers. But Germany didn't comply with the treaty and produced a lot of U-Boote especially during Hitler period.

Winston Churchill günlüğünde şöyle yazmıştı: ''Savaş boyunca beni gerçekten korkutan tek şey U-bot tehlikesiydi.'' Savaşın başlarında Alman denizaltıları müttefik gemilerine çok fazla zarar vermişlerdir. Atlantik denizi savaş zamanı, Amerika ve Kanada'dan gelen gıda ve malzeme bakımından İngiltere açısından çok kritik bir denizdi.

Winston Churchill wrote so in his diary: "During the war, the only thing that made me fear was the danger of U-Boote." From the beginning of the war, German submarines inflicted heavy damage to the Allied ships. The Atlantic was a very critical ocean for England during the war time in terms of food and materials coming from America and Canada.

İngilizler gemiyle malzeme ve insan taşıyan gemileri U-bot'lardan korumak için konvoylar halinde hareket etmiştir. Bu konvoylar 30-40 gemiden oluşup 3-4 destroyer veya savaş gemisi tarafından korunuyordu. Buna karşın Almanlar Wolfpack (Kurt Kapanı) denilen bir taktik geliştirmişlerdi.

The British put ships into convoy operations to protect the ships carrying materials and people from the U-Boote. These convoys were made of 30-40 ships, protected by 3-4 destroyers or warships. Against this, the Germans developed a tactic called Wolfpack.

Dönemin Almanya Deniz Kuvvetleri Başkanı Karl Dönitz'in geliştirdiği bu taktik, genellikle tek dolaşan Alman denizaltılarının birleşerek birlikte aynı anda konvoylara saldırmasıydı. Denizaltılar birden konvoyun ortasında belirip etkili atışlar yapabiliyordu. Bu taktiğin can alıcı noktası saldırıların gece yapılmasıydı.

This tactic, developed by German Navy's then commander Karl Dönitz, was generally German submarines combining into a single wing and attacking the convoys together at the same time. Submarines would suddenly appear in the middle of the convoy and make effective fires. This tactic's crucial point was the raids were done in the ight.

Böylece U-botlar Müttefik gemileri tarafından zar zor seçilebiliyordu. Çünkü radar daha keşfedilmemişti. Almanların bu taktiği İngilizler için yıkıcı olmuştur. Kurt Kapanı taktiği radarın bulunmasıyla sekteye uğradı.

Thus U-Boote were barely recognized by the Allied ships. Because radar wasn't yet invented. This tactic of Germans was destructive for the English. The Wolfpack tactic experienced a halt with the presence of radar.

Bunun yanında İngilizler, Almanların kendi aralarında ve merkez karargahla kurduğu iletişimi şifreleyen Enigma makinesini saldırıya uğrayan bir Alman denizaltısından ele geçirmişlerdi ve şifreyi çözmeye başlamışlardı bile. Böylece U-botların bütün hareketlerinden haberdar olmuşlardı.

Beside this, the English obtained the Enigma machine which encrypted communication among themselves and with the central command from a German submarine that was attacked and succeeded in the decipherment of the code. Thus all movements of the U-Boote became known.

İlginçtir ki bu iki gelişmeden Almanların haberi yoktu ve üst üste gelen başarısızlıkların nedenini anlamıyorlardı. Radarın bulunması herşeyi tersine döndürmüş, U-botların ihtişamlı döneni sona ermişti.

Interestingly, the Germans didn't know of these two developments and did not understand the reason for the repeating failures. The presence of radar turned everything upside down, the grandiose period of U-Boote reached the end.


Hiryu

1942 Mayıs'ında Hiryu son görevine çıktı. Uçakları 21 Mitsubishi A6M "Zero" avcı uçağı, 21 Aichi D3A "Val" pike bombardıman uçağı ve 21 Nakajima B5N "Kate" torpido bombardıman uçağı. 4 Haziran günü Midway savaşına katıldı. Saat 04:30'da Midway Adaları'na uçaklara ve tesisatlara zarar veren bir saldırı dalgası gönderdi. Kaga, Soryu ve Akagi uçak gemilerinin hava saldırıları ile saf dışı kalmasının ardından yaklaşık olarak saat 10:25'de geriye aktif olarak bir tek Hiryu kalmıştı. Saat 10:50 ve 12:45 de Yorktown'a karşı iki saldırı dalgası gönderdi ve Amerikan gemisine çok ağır zarar verdi (daha sonra Japon denizaltısı I-168 tarafından batırılacaktı).

Hiryu set out for her final mission in May 1942. The planes included 21 A6M Zero fighters, 21 Aichi D3A dive bombers and 21 Nakajima B5N torpedo bombers. She participated in the Battle of Midway in the morning of June 4. She dispatched an attack wave to damage planes and equipments of Midway Island at 04:30. After the aircraft carriers Kaga, Soryu and Akagi fell out of line with air raids, after approximately 10:25, only Hiryu remained active. She sent two attack waves against Yorktown at 10:50 and 12:45 and delivered a severe damage to the American ship (which would be sunk by the Japanese submarine I-168).

Japon keşif uçakları geri kalan Amerikan uçak gemilerini tespit etti ve saldırı gücünden sağ kalan bütün uçaklar Hiryu'ya iniş yaparak yakıt ve silah ikmali yaptı. Üçüncü saldırı dalgasını göndermek üzere hazırlanırken Hiryu saat 17:03'de Enterprise'dan havalanan SBD Dauntless pike bombacıları tarafından saldırıya uğradı. Dört kere 1000 lb'lik (453,6 kg) bombalar tarafından isabet aldı, üç tanesi uçuş güvertesine ve bir tanesi geminin ortasına, köprünün hemen yanına düştü. Patlamalar hangar güvertesinde uçaklar arasında yangın başlattı.

Japanese reconnaissance planes later identified remaining American aircraft carriers and all surviving planes of the raid forces landed on Hiryu and replenished fuel and weapons. Hiryu suffered an attack at 17:03 from the SBD Dauntless dive bombers flying from Enterprise as she was preparing to send the third attack wave. She was hit four times by 1000 lb bombs, three times on the flight deck and once in the middle, it fell right next to the bridge. Explosions caused fire among the planes in the hangar deck.

Hiryu'nun tahrik gücü etkilenmemiş olmasına rağmen yangın kontrol altına alınamadı. 21:23'de motorları sustu ve gece 01:58'de gerçekleşen büyük bir patlama gemiyi sarstı. Çok kısa bir süre sonra gemiyi terk etme emri verildi ve hayatta kalanlar Kazagumo ve Makugimo tarafından kurtarıldı. Amiral Yamaguchi ve Kaptan Kaku, Hiryu, Makigumo tarafından torpidolanırken güverte üzerindeydi. Saat 09:12'de 35 adamıyla sulara gömüldü (diğer 250 kişi bomba yangın ve patlamalarla ölmüştü). Otuzbeş asker Amerikan Donanması tarafından kurtarılarak esir alındı.

While Hiryu's engines were unaffected, the fire could not be controlled. The engines were silent at 21:23 and at 01:58 in the night, a large explosion shook the ship. Soon after an order was given to abandon the ship and the survivors were rescued by Kazagumo and Makigumo. Admiral Yamaguchi and Captain Kaku were on top of the deck when Hiryu was torpedoed by Makigumo. At 09:12, 35 were buried underwater (other 250 died from bombing and explosion). 35 soldiers were rescued and taken captives by the US Navy.

----------------------------------------------
It's almost weird to see articles on multiple Japanese carriers when there is no article on CV-6 Enterprise or Graf Zeppelin on Turkish Wikipedia. Someone in Turkey might be playing World of Warships with Japanese carriers.

I'm not particularly fond of "savaş gemisi" found on the U-Boot article. That's too vague, and the way it's written - 3-4 destroyer veya savaş gemisi - makes it look like "destroyer" and "savaş gemisi" (warship) are on the same level, while "destroyer" should in fact be a sub-category of "savaş gemisi." All the more on the part about the Treaty of Versaille; those six "savaş gemisi" most likely refer to six "zırhlı" (battleship). Well, that word also seems to mean "armor" which is a rather unfortunate polysemy, but still, it shouldn't confound battleships with warships.

Reading articles like these makes me think again about the Turkish evidentiality. Much of these stuff should be simply historical fact ... if the evidentiality extends to what cannot be verified as an objective fact at the moment with a living proof, then every historical fact would require this. But well, a lot of the sentences do have miş, but not all. Maybe the sentences that contain the evidentiality involve something of a guess, interpretation or extrapolation. Like:

1. Diğer 250 kişi bomba yangın ve patlamalarla ölmüştü.
2. Otuzbeş asker Amerikan Donanması tarafından kurtarılarak esir alındı.

2 can be verified, as there should somewhere be a list of those captives, whereas 1 certainly involves some form of guess. Probably the right guess as those 250 should have died in some way, but a guess is still a guess?
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-18, 0:41

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It's about time I start thinking about what to do past 1k. But before that, I want to make a quick note about something I've been considering as irrealis. I think the term is a bit misleading.

Karavinka wrote:
Reduplication?

- durdurmak
- bembeyazlık
- masmavı


I'll add yapayalnız to the list. They seem to have this pattern of reduplicating the first syllable, as in cv-??-cv(c)... like structure, but the filler consonants that fall between the reduplicated syllable and the actual root is mystifying.


Possessive/Genetive

Karavinka wrote:
-Bir randevuda hayvanat bahçesine gitmek normal değil mi?
-Hayvan gibi kokuyor... Ve ne 'rendevu'su?

Oh, ve bir de masallardaki gibi beyaz bir atın olmalı ve gelip almalısın beni.

Screw this. (╯‵□′)╯︵┻━┻


There's been a major misunderstanding about the genitive chain in Turkish. Let's clear the terms first.

1. Possessive for the owner.
2. Genitive for the owned.

First, a simple chain:

Dünya Savaşı'nın sonunda

First, Dünya Savaşı forms a simple possessive + genitive chain. Since "World War" is a single idea, there is no special marker for the possessive. This forms a NP and takes the possessive again, to create {Dünya Savaşı}'nın sonun.

But:

Cevabı hep kalbimdeydi. The answer was always in my heart.

There is no possessive to go with cevap, it simply has a genitive. I cannot but treat this as an indefinite third person: its answer, whatever that "it" is. How should I call this... impersonal? Let's acknowledge its existence for now.

Now, with the quoted sentences.

Ve ne rendevusu? -- A date of what/whom?

Oh, ve bir de masallardaki gibi beyaz bir atın olmalı ve gelip almalısın beni.

The first bir cannot correspond to masallardaki because the latter is plural. The second bir may simply form a phrase with beyaz bir {noun}. That leaves: the first bir is the one with the genitive relationship with atın. Is it just me or doesn't that make any sense? It doesn't. The I cannot think of a promising possessive to go with atın in that sentence.

Maybe I can imagine this its horse refers to "in-the-fairytales' horse" and the presence of ki is what screws this.


Genitive and... agreement?

Something caught my eyes as I was reviewing:

Nerde olduğunuzu biliyorsanız, neden gidip kendiniz getirmiyorsunuz?
If you know where she is, why don't you go yourself and bring her?

The problem is with olduğunuzu, and from the context of this, the one to be brought is a third person singular feminine, and olduğunuzu is agreeing with biliyorsanız as respect 2pl.

From (probably) the same translator.

Acaba annem şu anda beni cennetten, bu kadar mutlu olduğumu görse ne düşünürdü.
But if my mom sees me being so happy at this moment from the heaven, what would she think.

Olduk- should take the ending of the person, rather than agreeing with the verb; since the person seeing and thinking is third person (annem), it would have been *olduğunu as 3sg if that was the case. No, it seems pretty consistent that olduk- takes the ending of the person/thing being, not the subject of the sentence.

Chances?

1. It's a one-time mistake of the translator.
2. It's an exception with bilmek.
3. I'm an idiot and I am very wrong at some fundamental level.


Seni aptal!

Seni moron! Saatin kaç olduğundan haberin var mı?
You moron! You know what time it is?

Tabi ki de. Gerçekten onu yenebileceğini düşündün mü? Seni aptal!
Naturally. You really thought you could defeat him? You idiot!

Seni sapık liseli kız seni!
You are a perverted schoolgirl, you!

I don't know why the only samples are so negative. Ugh. In comparison:

Ne kadar aptaldım ben, ki farketmedim, o gülümseyişin altında yatan gerçekleri.
How much of an idiot was I, that I didn't notice the facts hiding under her smile.

Sen de aynı diğerleri gibisin.
You are the same with the others.

Demek sen de onlardan birisin, anlıyorum.
That is to day, you are one of them as well, I got it.

Yes. Usually it should be ben ...im and sen ...in. What's with the accusative? Maybe there's an idiomatic omission going on: I consider you to be a moron to you (Acc.) moron. Maybe it's analogous to how ... of you, except it's accusative for some reason.

------------------------------------------------------------

What do I call this. A... cultural note? I came across this little sentence in a manga.

Dün akşam. 31 çekmemeni istemiş olmama rağmen çektin, değil mi?

I'm not going to translate, but I had to google to find out what was meant. This was what I found:

31 çekmek eski osmanlıcada el çekmek demek. Yani el ile doyuma ulaşmak demek. Osmanlı döneminde ayıp şeyler direk söylenemeyince ebced hesabına göre karşılığı olan rakam söylenirmiş. Elif ve lam harfleri karşılığı: lam= 30 elif = 1 yani 31

OK. That's an interesting way to build euphemisms. And another random little passage.


Eşek arısı

Eşek arısı ya da Vespa, Vespidae familyasına ait yaban arısı cinsi. Türkiye'deki yaygın türü "sarıca" olarak bilinen Avrupa eşek arısıdır (vespa crabro).

Hornets or Vespers are a species of bees belonging to the Vespidae family. The type well known as "sarıca" in Turkey is European hornet.

Gövdesi kızılımsı sarı ve siyah çizgili olan eşek arıları oldukça iri yapılıdır; uzunlukları arıbeyinde 30 mm'yi, işçi arılarda 23 mm'yi bulur. Yeryüzünde geniş bir bir dağılım gösteren bu yaban arıları, bazen kova büyüklüğünde olan yuvalarını ağaç kovuklarında, duvar oyuklarında ender olarak da toprak üstünde kurarlar.

The hornets with reddish-yellow and black striped body become quite large; the length of a queen bee can be 30mm, the worker bees 23mm. These wild bees, distributed widely on earth, sometimes build their nests with the size of a bucket in tree coves, in holes in the walls or rarely on top of the soil.

Yuvaların içi, çiğnenmiş bitkisel maddelerin tükürükle karışmasından oluşmuş, kağıda benzer peteklerle döşelidir. Eşek arıları ağızlarındaki dişleriyle ısırır. Ancak zorda kaldığı vakit iğnesini batırır. Bu iğne zehirlidir. Sokması çok ağrı veren eşek arısının zehiri, insanda ağır alerji tepkilerine yol açabilir.

Inside the nests is covered with chewed plant materials mixed with saliva, made of paper-like beehives. The hornets bite with teeth in their mouths. However when in difficult situation they sink their needle. This sting is poisonous. The poison of the very painful hornet sting can cause allergic reactions in humans.

Eşek arıları bal yapmazlar. Polinasyonda görevli değildirler. Etçil canlılardır. Tarım zararlılarının ortadan kaldırılmasında önemli rol üstlenir çünkü yavrularını bu küçük böceklerle beslerler. Sadece yumurtalarını bırakmak için az sayıda petek göz örer. Ayrıca Kraliçe yuvayı tek başına yapar.

Hornets don't make honey. They are not responsible for polination. They are carnivorous. They play an important role in removing agricultural pests because they feed their babies with little insects. Only a small number of combs are placed with eggs. Further, the queen makes the hive alone.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2017-12-18, 11:56

Karavinka wrote:1. Possessive for the owner.
2. Genitive for the owned

They are traditionally named the other way round. In European languages too, it's the owner which bears the genitive.

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-19, 6:29

846 Cards

Lan! Dur! Genç bir kız böyle şeyler yapmamalı!
Hey! Stop! A young lady shouldn't be doing such things!

What is lan? My first instinct was if this was the same infix, but I have a faith in Turkish that it won't do such a thing.

Üniversite 1. sınıfta türk dili ve edebiyetı dersine giren profesörün anlattığana göre "oğulan" kelimesinin dejenere hali imiş. oğulan -> oğlan -> ulan -> lan

So I looked up the word "lan" on Ekşi Sözlük, a Turkish version of something like Urban Dictionary. This comment says: "According to the explanation of a first year Turkish language and literature professor, it's the degenerate form of the word 'son.'"

That's fine... but what is imek. To be? A copula?! How come I've never seen such a thing until now... but wait. Thai doesn't use copula except in certain literary contexts iirc. For now, I'll note its existence and that it is used when giving a definition.

Another word that defied the online dictionaries I was using:

Valla hiçbir şey yapmadım! İnanın bana!
I really didn't do anything! Believe me!

Valla mı? İşe yaradığına inanamıyorum!
For real? I can't believe it worked!

I either didn't get the explanation, or they were ambiguous and conflicting. After wrestling through a few, I'm tentatively going to accept this as a particle that doesn't really convey any meaning but emphasis. As one comment says:

Günümüzde, düşünmeden konuşurken sıkça kullanılan bir tamamlama kelimesi.
Nowadays, it's a word often used to finish a sentence when speaking without thinking.

Philosophy.

If there's any professional teacher of Turkish who happens to be reading this, I apologize, but I think these count as core Turkish words that I should know. Napıyorum lan ben... hiçbir fikrim yok.


voron wrote:
Karavinka wrote:1. Possessive for the owner.
2. Genitive for the owned

They are traditionally named the other way round. In European languages too, it's the owner which bears the genitive.


Oh crap. I'll take this feedback and try to rearrange the terms in my brain. Thanks!
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-21, 1:01

877 Cards

I'll try something different. For the first time, this is my translation into Turkish. Feel free to correct if the Turkish looks awkward.

I can't link any English translation, because... I'm an idiot and I just realized there was none so I added one myself. I did check the dictionary here and there for spelling and such, but I believe every word I used were found in some form in my deck, which was one of the reasons why I chose this song. The other reason is, of course, that I like it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhywfkUoppQ

장기하와 얼굴들 - 별일없이 산다
Chang Ki-ha ve Yüzler - Dertsiz yaşıyorum


니가 깜짝 놀랄 만한 얘기를 들려주마
아마 절대로 기쁘게 듣지는 못할 거다
뭐냐 하면
Seni şaşıracağını bir şey söyleyeceğim
Kesinlikle mutluluk ile duyabilemeyeceğin
Demek ki
I'll tell you something that will surprise you
You will not be happy upon hearing this
That is


나는 별일없이 산다 뭐 별다른 걱정 없다
나는 별일없이 산다 이렇다 할 고민 없다
Dertsiz yaşıyorum hiçbir üzüntüm yok
Dertsiz yaşıyorum hiçbir endişem yok
I live without problems, I have no worries
I live without problems, I have no care


니가 들으면 십중팔구 불쾌해질 얘기를 들려주마
오늘밤 절대로 두다리 쭉 뻗고 잠들진 못할 거다
그게 뭐냐면
Bunu duyken mutlaka hoş olmacağın
Bu gece kesinlikle rahat ile uyuyabilemeyeceğin
Demek ki
I'll tell you something that will surely make you disturbed
You definitely will not be able to sleep in peace tonight
That is


나는 별일없이 산다 뭐 별다른 걱정 없다
나는 별일없이 산다 이렇다 할 고민 없다
Dertsiz yaşıyorum hiçbir üzüntüm yok
Dertsiz yaşıyorum hiçbir endişem yok

이번 건 니가 절대로 믿고 싶지가 않을 거다
그것만은 사실이 아니길 엄청 바랄 거다
하지만
Sen bunu mutlaka inanmak istemen
Bunu gerçek olmaduğunu çok umarın
Ama
You absolutely don't want to believe this
You will really wish that this was not true
But


나는 사는 게 재밌다 하루하루 즐거웁다
나는 사는 게 재밌다 매일매일 신난다
나는 사는 게 재밌다 하루하루 즐거웁다
나는 사는 게 재밌다 매일매일 신난다
나는 별일없이 산다 나는 별일없이 산다
나는 사는 게 재밌다 나는 사는 게 재밌다
Yaşamım çok eğlenceli, günden güne eğlendim
Yaşamım çok eğlenceli, her gün heyecalandım
Yaşamım çok eğlenceli, günden güne eğlendim
Yaşamım çok eğlenceli, her gün heyecalandım
Dertsiz yaşıyorum, dertsiz yaşıyorum
Yaşamım çok eğlenceli, yaşamım çok eğlenceli
My life is fun, I'm enjoying each day
My life is fun, I'm excited every day
My life is fun, I'm enjoying each day
My life is fun, I'm excited every day
I live without problems, I live without problems
My life is fun, My life is fun


매일매일 하루하루 아주그냥...
Her gün, günden güne, valla...
Every day, each day, it's freaking...
Last edited by Karavinka on 2017-12-22, 7:45, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-21, 8:43

922 Cards

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG1bhgoMiVQ
Demet Akalın - Mucize

Ne oldu da biz bu duruma geldik
Az mı sevdik? çok mu sevdik?
Biz nerede hata yaptık
Düşünüyorum bulamıyorum
İşin içinden çıkamıyorum
What happened that we came to this state
Did we love little? Loved too much?
Where did we make a mistake?
I'm thinking about it, I can't find it
I can't escape from inside of this


Şimdi gördüm çok şaşırdım
Yeni mi geldin burda mıydın
Oysa bir ara hep aklımdaydın
İsim neydi çıkaramadım
Adın neydi hatırlamadım
I saw now and I'm very surprised
Did you come new here
You were in my mind all along
I can't draw my name
I can't remember what your name is


Her şey çok güzel gidiyordu
Konuşuyorduk anlaşıyorduk
Günler çok çabuk geçiyordu
Deniyorduk başarıyorduk inan
Everything was going very well
We were talking, we were understanding
The days went by very quickly
Believe, we were saying we were succeeding


Hatırlatayım müsaadenle
Fazla değil geçen sene
Biz ayrıldık seve seve
Barışmamız bir mucize
With your approval, let me remind you
Last year, not long ago
We just broke up
It's a miracle we came to peace


After a few days on the playlist, I realized I really liked her voice. So I went to track down a few more, and she turned out to be very prolific. The video appears a little low-budget production, but probably due to my years of Nicovideo, I developed quite a bit of liking for using texts as a part of the music video's visual effects.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtmPYw3DY4g
Demet Akalın - İlahi Adalet

Yaz hadi bugünü yaz bir kenara,
Mütemadiyen her sene bensiz kutla
Yaz hadi bugünü yaz bir kenara,
Unutma ki her giden dönmez aşktan
Write today, make a side note
You keep celebrating each year without me
Write today, make a side note
Don't forget that everyone who goes, doesn't come back from love


Gelemem akşama bozuyor ağlama
Bu da geçer ama yenisi var
Seveni vur ama kalp kırma
İlahi adalet diye bişey var
I can't come this evening, don't cry
This too will pass but there'll be a new one
Shoot the lover but don't break heart
There's a thing called divine justice


Yarına kalsa da yanına kalmaz
Acı döner gelir karması var!
Konumuz ayrılık fark ettiysen
Artık seni de terk eden birisi var
If she stays tomorrow, then not by the side
The pain will come back, it's karma!
We're talking about breakup, if you noticed
now there's someone who is leaving you



1. kutlamak "to celebrate". I assume this would have had a religious meaning, as it shares the same root with kutsal "holy."
2. bozuyor -- Some lyric versions give "bozuyo" instead. I think bozmak makes most sense, but I left it out of translation.
3. karma. Either this is "mixed", or ... karma. I took the chance with the latter.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTgEoiFNFGo
Demet Akalın - Gölge

Korkmam kara gün kararıp kalmaz
Bir yolunu buluruz güzelince
Işığından ne hayır gördük ki
Etmesin üstüme gölge, gölge, gölge
I'm not afraid, black day won't stay black
We'll find a beautiful way
What good did we see from the light
Don't cast shadow over me


O bir masalmış, biri anlatmış
Bir gün varmış, bir gün yokmuş
Ne fark eder yarıda kalmış
Tadı damakta acı da olsa
It be a fairytale, someone explained,
it was one day, it was no more one day
does it matter if it remains in half
Bitter taste in my palate


hayır - 1. no. 2. good deeds, acts. Some translators opted for the second meaning, which I followed.
I kinda expect Turkish pop to contain no more than 4 stanzas by now, but this one ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBBdM8fkE7U
Demet Akalın - Tecrübe

Kime bu caka bu hava
Seni herkes iyi tanıyor
İki cümlede iki yalan
Bir sözün bir sözünü tutmuyor
To whom is this trickery, this nonsense
Everyone knows you very well
Two words, two lies
One word doesn't hold the other


Şımarık dengesiz halin uzaktan bile farkediliyor
Eş dost arkadaş hergün durmadan seni konuşuyor
Your spoiled, unbalanced state can be noticed even from distance
Partner, buddies and friends, talk to you nonstop every day


Bu ne cesaret sanki felaket
Neresinde bunun asalet
Güzel oyundu ama bozuldu
Her şey çoktan unutuldu
What courage is this, it's a disaster
Where is the dignity of this?
Played beautifully but screwed up
Everything's already forgotten


Zamanın aşkları tatlı telaşları
Bütün detayları boş veriyor
Üzüntü hali olmuyor mani
Burada tecrübe konuşuyor
Sweet hurries of loves of the time
Ignoring all the details
Worrying doesn't hinder
Experience speaks here


I can't find caka anywhere. This was taken from a Russian translation, and there seems to be a Serbian word of similar meaning. Treating hava "air" as "empty" to "nonsense" is my extrapolation. I'll probably laugh at this a few months down the road.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2017-12-21, 11:55


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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-21, 22:17



I actually came across Tureng more than a few times as I googled for various words... I don't know why I never clicked it. I don't know, I somehow didn't recognize it as TURkish-ENGlish. Now I feel like an idiot lol Thanks!
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-22, 1:13

Image

Well, I rushed a bit today to reach the number. After all, it was my weekend -- so happens to be my shift. Anyways, it's time for evaluation, and plans for this thread. Card #1000:

O halde sana şunu sorayım, peki ya hastaneye yatırılma ücretlerin? Geçen haftanın market harcamaları? Geçim masrafları? Tüm bunları kim ödedi?
------
hastane: hospital
hastaneye yatırılmak: be hospitalized
ücret: pay, fee
geçim: livelihood
masraf: cost
ödemek: pay


First of all, good job on not giving up already.

Well, now that I reached my initial target number, what do I do? Do I go grab a book, check the answers, make some bad satirical jokes where I failed but still wrap it up with an arrogant declaration of success, feel good about myself, go on my merry way and forget all Turkish in less than 3 months? What? Isn't that what happens at the end of every wanderlust?

I thought about doing just that. But I couldn't, because I'm enjoying this. I haven't had this much fun for learning any language for a very long time.

But still, I can't go on the same way. Going over some 200 cards to pinpoint a piece of grammar is still an after-work evening pastime. Over 500, that's a weekend project. 1,000 and beyond, soon it's going to be a term paper. And how could I learn without seeing more Turkish? The real-life logistics tells me that I need to shift gears. But before that, let's see what's been done so far.


First, the vocabulary. I'm going to make a conservative estimate that a card on average contains 2~3 new words, and that'd mean I've seen 2~3k Turkish words so far. If I can recognize only half of them when I see them in a new context, that's still 1~1.5k. That's not a bad record for 2 months, but I wouldn't call it a success. That's just an inevitable side-effect of an SRS.

As for the grammar, I feel confident that I must have at least scratched the majority of the surface features of Turkish. There are still gaps and holes, and I have a few suspects where my last guesses were either just wrong or incomplete at best. I still haven't made a separate topic for a few things like -(y)ince. The paradigms are quite incomplete, but I blame 2pl for that.

Image

That said, the goal is to learn Turkish, not to write a description of it. To that end, I'm going to start the second phase of this thread.

From now on, I will not make any more grammatical analyses. Rather, I'll try my best not to consciously think about the grammar and instead I'll simply focus on the vocabulary and the expressions. I'll probably keep posting my reading exercises, occasional music and may even make notes about words, idioms and expressions. I'll occasionally dump random sentences that I looked up/know every word but still cannot understand how they fit together. You know, those damn things.

This second phase will last until either:

- I hit 4000 cards in Anki, or
- the date is March 31,

whichever happens first. Either I hit 3 months, or add 3000 additional cards. Once I hit either of those second milestones, I'll take a look at my earlier grammar analysis and see if I can answer any of the unresolved topics, or provide a better explanation for any. I'll take a second look at the problem sentences I noted during the second phase as well, and decide if I need a book... or not. Because, if I just understand something even though I cannot explain why or how -- that means I'm developing an instinct.

So, the Spoiler Alert is still in effect. The sentences I post on the thread that I failed to understand -- I'm not asking for an explanation. The difference is that instead of trying to solve them, I'll let the problems solve themselves. If it works that way.


The new goal is a bit arbitrary and involves my guesstimation. The goal is to end up with 4~5k words floating in my brain, so that I could see a random Turkish text and recognize 80% of it. This will be the basis for tackling more authentic Turkish, as Turkish cannot be an exception to the 80/20 rule.

Thus it's subject to change; I don't know how lexicostatistics looks like for Turkish, I may decide 4k is still not enough and add another thousand. Or two.

If I have to look up 10 words per paragraph (often it's worse), I cannot handle it unless I am very familiar with the context and can fill in the meanings from my previous knowledge. But once I have enough of the commonly used vocabulary to auto-fill 80% of it, then I can be more confident that I will remember and retain what I look up. Whereas if I were reading something for new information, and had to look up as many words -- I will feel Turkish is "too hard", and feel discouraged. The discouraging sense of being overwhelmed -- this is the last thing that should happen. I need Turkish to remain something fun, if I'm to make through the intermediate learner purgatory.

As I first started this, the only cards that entered my deck were those that I could cite the original verbatim from memory. It's not as rigid anymore, but I don't want to make this needlessly hard. I give up if the text feels too difficult and hide back into the familiar territory. Ideally, I would be engaging more authentic Turkish materials by the end of the second phase, but I may not. After all, this is but a log of my feeble attempt at Turkish.

And in the mean time, let me add one star to Turkish on my UL profile. Looks pretty!
Last edited by Karavinka on 2018-02-21, 22:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Location: İstanbul
Country: TR Turkey (Türkiye)

Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Multiturquoise » 2017-12-22, 20:27

Karavinka wrote:장기하와 얼굴들 - 별일없이 산다
Chang Ki-ha ve Yüzler - Dertsiz yaşıyorum


니가 깜짝 놀랄 만한 얘기를 들려주마
아마 절대로 기쁘게 듣지는 못할 거다
뭐냐 하면
Seni şaşırtacak bir şey söyleyeceğim
Bunu duyarken mutlu olmayacaksın
Yani
I'll tell you something that will surprise you
You will not be happy upon hearing this
That is


나는 별일없이 산다 뭐 별다른 걱정 없다
나는 별일없이 산다 이렇다 할 고민 없다
Dertsiz yaşıyorum hiçbir üzüntüm yok
Dertsiz yaşıyorum hiçbir endişem yok
I live without problems, I have no worries
I live without problems, I have no care


니가 들으면 십중팔구 불쾌해질 얘기를 들려주마
오늘밤 절대로 두다리 쭉 뻗고 잠들진 못할 거다
그게 뭐냐면
Seni kesinlikle rahatsız edecek bir şey söyleyeceğim
Kesinlikle bu gece huzur içinde uyuyamayacaksın
Yani
I'll tell you something that will surely make you disturbed
You definitely will not be able to sleep in peace tonight
That is


나는 별일없이 산다 뭐 별다른 걱정 없다
나는 별일없이 산다 이렇다 할 고민 없다
Dertsiz yaşıyorum hiçbir üzüntüm yok
Dertsiz yaşıyorum hiçbir endişem yok

이번 건 니가 절대로 믿고 싶지가 않을 거다
그것만은 사실이 아니길 엄청 바랄 거다
하지만
Kesinlikle buna inanmak istemezsin
Hakikaten bunun gerçek olmadığını umacaksın
Ama
You absolutely don't want to believe this
You will really wish that this was not true
But


나는 사는 게 재밌다 하루하루 즐거웁다
나는 사는 게 재밌다 매일매일 신난다
나는 사는 게 재밌다 하루하루 즐거웁다
나는 사는 게 재밌다 매일매일 신난다
나는 별일없이 산다 나는 별일없이 산다
나는 사는 게 재밌다 나는 사는 게 재밌다
Hayatım çok eğlenceli, günden güne eğleniyorum
Hayatım çok eğlenceli, her gün heyecanlanıyorum
Hayatım çok eğlenceli, günden güne eğleniyorum
Hayatım çok eğlenceli, her gün heyecanlanıyorum
Dertsiz yaşıyorum, dertsiz yaşıyorum
Hayatım çok eğlenceli, hayatım çok eğlenceli
My life is fun, I'm enjoying each day
My life is fun, I'm excited every day
My life is fun, I'm enjoying each day
My life is fun, I'm excited every day
I live without problems, I live without problems
My life is fun, My life is fun


매일매일 하루하루 아주그냥...
Her gün, günden güne, valla...
Every day, each day, it's freaking...
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Learning: (ka) (en)


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