Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2017-11-28, 16:17

Karavinka wrote:Cumada hiç iyi hissetmediğim için o gün Anki'lebilmedim.

Notes
1) You don't need -da on cuma (just like you didn't put it on "o gün"). It's not consistent for all time periods though, with some you do need it.
(Is there a language where it is consistent? Cf. English: on Monday; in July).

2) -ebilmedim - this combination of affixes is ungrammatical

There are 2 ways to negate a verb with -abil:
a) I wasn't able to do Anki
b) I was able not to do Anki
They translate into two different forms in Turkish, and in case a) the -abil affix is replaced with a different affix, followed by ma. You have example sentences with this new affix in one of your unresolved issues, actually.

3) Anki'lemek - apart from that it's not a real word, if you want to combine it with the "abil" affix, it will give Anki'leyebilmek, with an epenthetic "y".

Sorry if it contained spoilers :)

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-28, 18:19

voron wrote:
Karavinka wrote:Cumada hiç iyi hissetmediğim için o gün Anki'lebilmedim.

Notes
1) You don't need -da on cuma (just like you didn't put it on "o gün"). It's not consistent for all time periods though, with some you do need it.
(Is there a language where it is consistent? Cf. English: on Monday; in July).

2) -ebilmedim - this combination of affixes is ungrammatical

There are 2 ways to negate a verb with -abil:
a) I wasn't able to do Anki
b) I was able not to do Anki
They translate into two different forms in Turkish, and in case a) the -abil affix is replaced with a different affix, followed by ma. You have example sentences with this new affix in one of your unresolved issues, actually.

3) Anki'lemek - apart from that it's not a real word, if you want to combine it with the "abil" affix, it will give Anki'leyebilmek, with an epenthetic "y".

Sorry if it contained spoilers :)


Thanks as always. :) I'm happy enough that hissetmediğim için apparently passed.

1. Actually, I thought that was a strange quirk of the Eurobarbarians. Korean (-e), Japanese (-ni) and afaik, Manchu (-de) show uniform markers regardless of the time length. I did notice this dropping, but I was thinking if it could be optionally dropped.

2. I think I have a suspect... though I haven't pinned it down. Though that makes sense, considering what bilmek means.

3. Yeah, just as "to anki" is not a word in English. ;) I thought about this for a moment whether I wanted to use etmek to be on the safer side instead, but to be honest, I wanted to test -la/le used to build a nonce word. I thought I might poke a reaction since I haven't come across a similar instance.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2017-11-28, 19:42

Karavinka wrote:I wanted to test -la/le used to build a nonce word

Ok! I just wonder, in this song, is the original meaning transitive? Because "la\le" usually produces transitive verbs (with some exceptions); so "Miku'layacağım" would mean something like "I'll Miku-fy you" (I'll turn you into Miku).

On a side note, the obsession of Turks with anime and all things Japanese is crazy. In the company I worked in Turkey, we were 5 programmers, and 1 of us was an anime maniac, and he attended a Japanese language course as well. He tried to convert me as well (we watched a few anime's together) but it didn't catch me.

Oh yes and this same guy introduced me to Hatsune Miku, too. :)

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-29, 7:14

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-mesi / -meyi / -meni CONCLUDED

Karavinka wrote:The remaining questions still exist, though. Turkish inserts filler consonants between morphemes because it doesn't like two vowels coming in a row; that's fine. But when is it -s- and when is it -n-? And when would it be -y-? I'll leave this as a separate topic to be resolved.


The topic may need more follow-ups later on. Let's just take one at a time. First, mesi.

Oyunu kaybetmemiz durumunda dünyanın sona ermesi de mümkün. In case we lose the game, it could be the end of the world.
Veri düzenlemesi konusunda uzmanım. I am an expert when it comes to data manipulation.

A fairly common form, I think this is the possessed form of the nominal -me/ma. Sometimes it's easy to identify the genitive chain: dünyanın sona ermesi, veri düzenlemesi. "The end of the world" is made of two ideas linked together, but "data manipulation" is treated as a single concept. Sometimes it can be a bit messier:

Onun bin tane atması mı inanılmaz, birinin bunları sayması mı? Is it unbelievable that she threw (a ball) a thousand times, or that someone's counting them?

The wrap can be quite separated from one another, as in onun atması and birinin sayması .

Ve sadece sahip olması gerekenler onu bulabilecek. And only those who should own it will find it.

The nominal -ma can be followed by serializing -ip, creating sahip olması gerekenler. It's a bit puzzling why gerekenler doesn't have genitive, but maybe it has something to do with gerek being (at least semantically equivalent to) a modal. Sahip is a noun.

Beklemek sadece durumun daha da kötüye gitmesine sebep olur. Waiting will only cause the situation to get worse.

The chain appears to be durumun gitmesi, the phrase literally something like: would be cause for "going of the situation" still further into bad. I'll take -(n)e in -sine as a directional particle, whatever it's called in formal grammars. Dative? Allative?

İnsanların senden nefret etmesinin nedenni The reason why people hate you
Komünistlerin proleterlerle ilişkisinin aslı nedir? What is the basis of the relationship of the communists with the proletariat?

Nefret etmek is to dislike/hate, and insanların nefret-etmesinin nedenni is the whole chain. It looks like etmesinin has both the wrap -si and its own genitive -nin. Likewise, ilişkisinin shows the same behavior.

Bizlere bak, giyotinin tepesinden Look at us, from the hill of the guillotine

Of course, -sin needs not be only after -ma/me.

Söylemesi biraz zor ama... çokda iyi değildi! It's a bit hard to say... but it wasn't good at all!
Kelimelerle anlatması zor. It's hard to express with words.

These are a little quirky. They both happen to have zor, "hard to say/express." I'll assume the same structure applies when I say "easy to say/express." The Turkish equivalent of "adjective to + infinitive" seems to be functioning this way.

Second, meyi.

Senin görüş alanına girmeyi başaramazdım. I couldn't succeed entering your field of vision.

Dans etmeyi denediğin üzücü zamanlar, Sad times trying to dance
ağlamayı isterken güldüğün zamanlar, Laughing times even when I want to cry

Bizim kulübümüze katılmayı düşündün fakat, müzikle hiç ilgilenmiyormusun? You thought about joining our club, but you aren't interested in music at all?

Anlaşılan ciddi ciddi kazanmayı düşünüyor. Apparently she's really really thinking about winning.

Mutsuz olmaktan yoruldum, hiçbir şey hissetmeden yaşamayı tercih ederim. I'm tired of being unhappy, I'd be happy living without feeling anything.

The form seems to be accusative, and semantically, I don't see any rhyme or reason. Ağlamayı isterken is particularly so because istemek can also follow another infinitive. I'm not going to think about why these verbs demand accusative, at least for now. And while I'm omitting them here, others come with dative (meye/maya). I'll ignore this and take it as an arbitrary feature. The important thing is: accusative and dative demand -y- as filler.

And third, meni.

Benim için bir şey yapmanı istiyorum... ama önce sormam gereken bir şey var. I want you to do something for me... but before that, there's one thing I need to ask.
Eteğimi sallayıp hava atarak, bana bakmanı sağlayacağım! I'll make you look at me, throwing my skirt waving in the air!
Bana iyi bakmanı istiyorum. I want you to take a good care of me.

This -n is not a filler, but is 2nd person possessive, followed by ... eh, accusative? Unfortunately I don't seem to have as many specimen for this, because it's 2nd person.

Yapmam, yapman, yapma(nın), yapmamız. I am yet to come across 2pl. yapmanız


So, regarding the fillers:

1. -nin for the genitive-possessor, 3rd person.
2. -si(n) for the genitive-possessed/wrap.
3. -sinin for the daisy-chained genitive.
4. -yi for the accusative.
5. -n(i) is not a filler, but second person.


voron wrote:
Karavinka wrote:I wanted to test -la/le used to build a nonce word

Ok! I just wonder, in this song, is the original meaning transitive? Because "la\le" usually produces transitive verbs (with some exceptions); so "Miku'layacağım" would mean something like "I'll Miku-fy you" (I'll turn you into Miku).

On a side note, the obsession of Turks with anime and all things Japanese is crazy. In the company I worked in Turkey, we were 5 programmers, and 1 of us was an anime maniac, and he attended a Japanese language course as well. He tried to convert me as well (we watched a few anime's together) but it didn't catch me.

Oh yes and this same guy introduced me to Hatsune Miku, too. :)


It is transitive. If I were to translate it into English, I'd even go with "I'll Miku-Miku you" - whatever it means, it's nonce.

I don't know if I have an obsession, it's just a part of my culture -- at a personal level, that is. It's like I don't listen to Japanese music, I listen to music. But I do see how it has to be an acquired taste, like any foreign culture.

I don't think I would have made as much progress within the given time if I tried to stick completely with the Turkish cultural products. Knowing what it "should" say certainly helps figuring out what it "is" saying, and I'm quite grateful to the Turkish otakus out there.
Last edited by Karavinka on 2017-12-07, 9:55, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-30, 3:10

A little tired to think too much at the moment, but listing a few "to-do" list. Might be helpful to keep track of things to be done.

A-arak B
it's non-final, and therefore must have some connecting function. other than that, no idea.
-tirmek
→ to make ... (as in change of state), -ize?

-ya, -bil, -yabil?
→ potentiality

-zorunda, gerek, lazım
→ must

-ana kadar, -ana dek or maybe just -ana
→ until


-yordu
→ compound tense

-caktı
→ compound tense

-laş-
→ screw this

dimi
Ah evet, ben gitar çalacaktım dimi? Oh yeah, I was going to play guitar?
O zaman bu iyi bir şey dimi?
→ why not just mi? demek?

-ken
take a second look at this.


başka

bir

olsun

bile

hiç

And to verify: If what I thought was -cek was in fact -ecek, I'll need to double check other infixes as well.

--------------------------------------------------

Miscellaneous:

Doğruya, dışarı yemek yemek için çıkmıştım!
Turkish, et tu? I think I need to build a new type of linguistic typology. Essen-Essen languages, rice-eating languages and objectless indefinite something-eating languages.
Last edited by Karavinka on 2017-12-07, 9:55, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-30, 6:43

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eRY2Tlb7G8
Yonca Evcimik feat. Irem Derici & Gokce - Kendine Gel

Sözlerine dikkat et sen You mind your words
Çizmeyi aşıyorsun You're reaching the line
Herkesin bir sabrı var Everyone has patience
Bardağı taşırıyorsun The cup is overflowing

Lyrictranslate gives the last line as "this is the last straw." Makes sense.

Sor bir bilene Ask one who knows
Yürümez bu iş böyle This doesn't work so
Aldıkça alttan ben Taken from below, I

Lyrictranslate (henceforth LT) translates the last line as "as long as I take the line of least resistance." Aldıkça is from almak "take, receive", and ben alttan aldıkça autocompletes in Google so I'm assuming this is an idiom. Probably something along the line of: removing a piece from the bottom so the whole structure crumbles.

Sen geldin hep üstüme You always/completely come on top of me
Ağzından çıkanı duysun kulağın Your ear listen to what comes out of your mouth
Düştük bu hallere sen You and I fell to these situations

Düştük is plural, but there's sen. I think I'm getting used to this. LT gives it as: "how the hell did we get here" -- the hell? What adds that emphasis?

Kendine gel sen You, come to yourself
Kendine kendine gel Come to yourself, to yourself
Haddini bil sen Know your place
Haddini haddini bil Know your place, your place

I already had a card that says:

Kendine gel
-----
しっかりしてください!


In the context where the listener was about to faint. Since it literally says "come to yourself", the phrase seems applicable when the listener is behaving out of what is usual. Be it collapsing from a shock, or acting out of place. LT says "behave yourself." As for had, I noted it as 身の丈 on my card.

Kendini bilmez erkeklere haddini bildirmek on the screen seems eerily 身の丈を知らず, a phrase used when someone of lower rank/caste acts inappropriately. The imagery on the video seems to match, as the speaker is asserting superiority. Physically.

The first time I came across this video, the first reaction was: Charlie's Angels? Was it such a beloved film in Turkey? Eh, whatever. I listened to the song carefully a few times, and I have a feeling that kendini is pronounced like **çendini on multiple occasions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRUsNPC57H8

Hadise - Şampiyon

Şampiyona şeker geliyor geliyor Sweets coming, coming to the champion
Şampiyona şeker geliyor Sweets coming to the champion
Yıldızı var başında başım mı dönüyor A star on the head, is my head spinning
Şampiyona şeker geliyor Sweets coming to the champion
ŞAMPİYON

Bir kader var bilemiyoruz There's a fate, we don't know
Mucize saklı göremiyoruz We don't see hidden miracles
Arkadaşlar dalga geçti Friends tease (me)
Bakışını gördüm dans ederken I saw you gaze while dancing

Dalga geçmek, literally "to pass the waves"? seems to mean to made fun of, mock and tease. Three translations and Google Translate agree, I'll go with it.

Adını yazdım silemiyorsun I wrote your name, you can't wipe it away
Sıkı sıkı tuttum gidemiyorsun I hold you tight, tight; you can't go
Elime düştün yavrucuğum You fell into my hands, sweetheart
Git desem de zor gidersin I tell you to go, it'll be hard for you to go

Aşk tutukladı kalbimi Love has arrested my heart
Zil çaldırdı eteklerimi Ring the bells of my skirts
Sen şahane gelen You're coming marvelous
Dur yapma kimsenin canını yakma Stop, don't, don't burn someone's heart

While I like her voice, the lyrics -- as I check them now -- turned out to be quite banal. I quite like the color imagery around 3:15, but the red-white color palette looks a bit cheap. Not much more to say about it, other than she seems to pronounce yavrucuğum as if **yawrucuğum.. hmm, wait. Doesn't Atiye pronounce v in mevzu similarly? Anyways, I wanted to try hacking down a different song, but I couldn't find a translation into a language I can read. And I got stuck.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-30, 17:37

Trying to build a little playlist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsNCVcdAJes
Atiye - Ya Habibi

Bir gözüm görmüyor, bir kulağım duymuyor One year doesn't see, one ear doesn't hear
Bir elim tutmuyor hayat sensiz bir yarım One hand doesn't hold, life is half without you
Koşuyorum sebepsiz, nefesim yetersiz I'm running with no purpose, my breath running out
Kaldım ben sensiz yarım Without you I remain half

Ya habibi, bekletme sevdiğini My love, don't make your love wait
Dünya dönüyor ama günler dönmüyor geri The world turns around but days don't go back
Ya habibi kaybetme sevdiğini My love, don't make your love lose
Dünya dönüyor aşka haydi sen de dön geri The world turns aroundlove so you turn back too
Ya habibi kalbimin sahibi My love, owner of my heart
Ya habibi

Other than ya habibi being Arabic, not much to comment on the lyrics. She seems to be trying to deliver different visual imagery on every video rather than pursuing a certain aesthetics, which seems a bit hit-and-miss to an ignorant foreigner that I am.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtVsVJ9V338
Hadise - Prenses

Ne zaferinden bahsediyorsun What victory are you talking about?
Sen savaşla aşkı karıştırmışsın You're confusing love and war
Çık o karanlıktan, siperinden Get out of the darkness, out of your cover
Sen beni hep düşman varsaymışsın You've taken me as an enemy

Sen rekabet iste You want competition?
Ben buna bayılıyorum I absolutely love this!
Kadının gücünü hafife alma Don't take a woman's power lightly
Erkeklik gururun vardır sanırım I guess you have a man's pride
Perişan olup zor durumda kalma Don't get lost and stay in tight situation

İstersen bana ukala mukala de You wish I was just bragging on and on
El üstünde tutulmazsam, hep el kalırım I was kept precious, and will always remain so
Prensesler gibiydim ben baba evinde I was like a princess in my father's house
özgürlüğüme gölgeyi hakaret sayarım! I count any shadow on my freedom as an insult

Uklala mukala seems like a phonetic wordplay, I'm taking mukala as a nonce. And... why prensesler gibi in plural? 'Like the princesses'?

Cross-referencing a few different translations, it seems el üstünde tutulmak, "to keep on top of hand" seems to be a way of saying 'cherished, kept precious' - and hep el kalırım, some translations opted for "foreigner" for el. Uh.. el does seem to mean that as well, but I think it makes more sense to see it as hep el üstünde kalırım.

Bekle, kendimi kim zanmıyorum? I don't know Turkish. Maybe "foreigner, outsider" is the right translation and it is a pun, though that would be a bit weird in context.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2017-11-30, 18:40

Karavinka wrote:Düştük bu hallere sen You and I fell to these situations

It's ungrammatical. "Sen" most definitely introduces the refrain here.
Düştük bu hallere.

Sen
Kendine gel sen


LT gives it as: "how the hell did we get here" -- the hell? What adds that emphasis?

No idea. It's not emphatic.

it seems el üstünde tutulmak, "to keep on top of hand" seems to be a way of saying 'cherished, kept precious'

I'm not 100% sure here so I'll just say my guess. Besides the two meanings for "el" that you have listed (hand; foreigner), it has yet another meaning: folk, people.

This meaning creates this word play:
El üstünde tutulmazsam - If I'm not kept above the simple folk (if I'm not treated exceptionally)
Hep el kalırım -- I'll remain the simple folk

Ben de mi kendimi Türk zannediyorum? :)

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-01, 8:55

454 Cards

It's probably the biggest topic so far. I drank too much coffee and smoked too many cigarettes with this. Turkish is detrimental to your physical health. I'm not complaining, though.


değil, yok, -siz CONCLUDED

Let's start with something obvious. Turkish has at least 5~6 morphemes to express negation, ma/maz are only two of them, used to negate finite verbs. Değil is for the nominals i.e. adjectives and nouns, and yok for existence. Yok seems to specifically negate var. Having dedicated words like var and yok isn't strange to me, they are equivalent to Korean 있다/없다 and Japanese 有り・無し.

Nereye gittiğimiz önemli değil!
It's not important where we go!

Bu senin suçun değil mi?
Is it not your fault?

Derin sular durgun değil.
Deep water isn't still.

Kimsenin benim için endişelendiği yok.
There is no one to worry about me.

Sen iyiysen benim için de sorun yok.
If you're fine, there's no problem for me too.

Maybe I just haven't come across such yet (it's much easier to say "X happens" than "X doesn't happen", falsifiability) but it seems değil and yok are almost verbs but not quite. Defective? Both değil and yok can take perfect -di, but not future -acak, the future seems to require auxiliary. Only değil can take personal endings directly.

Söylemesi biraz zor ama... çokda iyi değildi!
It's a bit hard to say but... It wasn't good at all!

Aslında, bunda gülünecek bir şey yoktu.
In fact, there wasn't anything to laugh in it.

Ve evet, bunların ikisi gerçekten de can sıkıcı mı? Gerçi ben de pek konuşulacak biri değilim.
And well, are these two really so bored? Though I'm not the one to say that either.

Onlardan uzaktayım diye yok olacak değiler. Nerde olursak olalım, aile ailedir.
Being far from them doesn't mean they don't exist. Wherever I may be, family is family.

Kızgın bile değilim. Samimi söylüyorum.
I'm not even angry. I'm sincere as I'm saying this.

Yok can also take -sa, to create "if there is none."

Eğer kimsecıkler yoksa, şimdi klübe katılarak başkan olabilirim.
If no one is there, I can join the club now and be the president.

The fifth, which one may count as just a workaround way of saying, is -siz.

Lütfen kütüphanede sessiz olun.
Please be quiet (i.e. voiceless) in the library.

Haruhi hiç konuşmaksızın öylece oturduğunu gören onun güzel, liseli bir kız olduğunu sanar.
Haruhi, so long as she's just sitting so without talking, looks like a pretty schoolgirl.

The last one I can think of is hiç, which I think I need a separate topic.


-ma / -mama UNRESOLVED

-ma: Negative imperative

Böyle tehlikeli şeyler söyleme!
Don't say such dangerous things!

Benimle iyi geçin havayı bozma!
Get to know me well, don't break the mood!

Sakın unutma, tamam mı? Beni bekletemezsin!
Don't forget, OK? Don't make me wait!

Ben buradayım, o yüzden sakın gözünü üzerimden ayırma!
I'm here, so don't take your eyess off from me!

Kaçmak isteyen bir Juliet'im, ama bana bu isimle seslenme
I am Juliet who wants to run away, but don't call me by that name

Aşkımı trajedideki Juliet'inki gibi yapma
Don't make my love like that of Juliet in the tragedy

-mama: Negative short infinitive

İnanıp inanmamam bir kenara, her şeyi netleşinceye dek bunları gizli tutsak olur mu?
Beliving or not believing aside, can we keep these secret until everything becomes clear?

I think I'll call -ma as short infinitive, and -mak as long infinitive. As always, there must be better names to call these. I subscribe to the adhoc school of linguistics. However, this is different:

Ellerini tutmama ne dersin?
What do you say, if I hold your hand?

*Tut-ma-m-a, simply a pronominal after short infinitive with whatever case -a is called. Google Translate suggests translating this as a negative, but then I guess it'd be **tutma-ma-m-a. Mamama. Damn you Turkish, do you really have to do this.

Anyways, I haven't come across **-mazmak, so I think I can assume that -ma- is the preferred form for negative infinitive. As for the imperative, the majority is -ma. That said:

Beni bekletemezsin!

At least this shows mez+pronominal can be used as an imperative. Note the filler vowel as well. Contrast with:

Ya habibi, bekletme sevdiğini!

So, Turkish can say -etme- and this phonetic cluster is not haram. There must be another reason why it says bekletemezsin instead of **bekletmezsin.


-ma / -maz + pronominal UNRESOLVED

It's probably a good idea to define tenses before re-analysing this bulk. The imperfect -yor- shows how specific the negative morpheme can be to a tense. So far, 1. Present (root), 2. Perfect (-di), 3. Imperfect (-yor), 4. Future (-ecek). Let's see how the compound tenses behave.

-ma+pronominal

Ah.. ama ben hiç bir enstürman çalamam.
Ah... but I don't play any instrument.

Detayları gizli bilgidir, bu yüzden açıklayamam.
Details are confidential, so I cannot explain.

Nereden veya hangi zamandan geldiğimi sana söyleyemem.
I cannot tell you where or what time I came from.

Bilmem.
Dunno.

Vowel Harmony: Duet, ma / me

-maz+pronominal

Yürümez bu iş böyle
It doesn't work that way.

Yıldızlara iyi tutunmalılar, bu sayede düşmezler gökyüzünden
They must hold fast on the stars, so they do not fall from the heaven

Bu mümkün. Ancak, tavsiye edilmez.
It's possible. However, it's not recommended.

Bu kadar zarar görmüşken daha fazla mücadele edemezsin. Öyleyse bunu bitirelim.
You won't be able to fight more with that much damage. I'll finish this.

Bu alanda beni yenemezsin.
You cannot defeat me in this space.

İşe yaramaz. Demedim mi?
Useless. Did I not tell you?

Bu durumda kendi yargılarımla hareket etmemden rahatsızlık duymazsın değil mi?
In this situation, acting with one's own judgments won't make you feel uncomfortable, right?

Umarım bütün o iskencelerden sonra travma geçirmez.
I hope after all these tortures she doesn't get traumatized.

Sıradan insan olmadiğı sürece, erkek ya da kız olsun farketmez.
So long as it's not an ordinary human, it doesn't matter if it's a boy or a girl.

Sakın unutma, tamam mı? Beni bekletemezsin!
Don't forget, OK? Don't make me wait!

Kalbime hafiften göz atmak istemez misin?
Won't you take a quick look at my heart?

Sonuçta, geriye dönüp kaderini değiştiremezsin.
In the end, you cannot turn back and change fate.

Vowel Harmony: Duet, maz / mez

So far, I haven't come across -ması(n)/-mesi(n) forms that I should interpret as negative instead of short negative plus genitive. Perhaps this is how Turkish tries to disambiguate.

The paucity of plural forms aside, the complimentary distribution of 1sg and 2sg/3sg is clear. I'll accept this as it is, with a small complaint that 1sg negative is apparently identical to 1sg short infinitive with -mam. I'm only saying "apparently", because:

Ah.. ama ben hiç bir enstürman çalamam.

If Turkish can say çalmak, there shouldn't be any phonetic constraint that prevents saying çalmam. The extra vowel is also found in açıklayamam and söyleyemem. But then there's bilmem, and olmadı down below.

That said, both bilmem and bilemem pass the Google Test. I've noticed some writers drop certain vowels when writing, such as:

Orda kalıp dövüşmesi gereken sendin çünkü sen bir erkeksin!

Orda instead of the full spelling orada, and this seems to drop quite commonly in spoken Turkish. If I do come across bilemem in an actual sample, and it seems to say the same thing, I may conclude bilmem is a spelling variant. That's just one possibility.

It gets even worse with -maz forms, as the presence or absence of the filler vowels seem random at first. I may need to come up with a different explanation altogether, i.e. -amaz and -maz are two different morphemes, or that extra vowel is an independent morpheme doing something there. Because the bekletme vs bekletemezsin above, I'm ruling out phonetic constraint as a possibility.

Look at the translations. There's a difference between "didn't do" and "couldn't do", sen moron.


-mamış CONCLUDED

Muhtemelen anlattiğım hiçbir şeye inanmamişsindir.
Maybe you won't believe everything I explained.

Hatırlıyorum. Yerel gazeteye de çıkmamış mıydı?
I remember. Wasn't it on the local newspaper?

This is just the short infinitive plus evidentiality. The first one is negated with hiç instead, and the second one isn't even really negative. The sign may be the lack of the extra vowel between the root and -ma.


-miyor ADDRESSED

Bir gözüm göryor, bir kulağım duymuyor
Bir elim tutmuyor hayat sensiz bir yarım
One eye doesn't see, one eye doesn't hear,
One hand doesn't hold, without you life is only half


Bir şeye mi ihtiyacın var? Eğer öğrencim olmak istiyorsan, kimseyi kabul etmiyorum.
You need something? If you want to be my disciple, I don't take any.

Öyle biriyle muhattap olmak istemiyorum.
I don't want to have anything to do with such a person.

Bağımsız hareket etme yetkin bulunmuyor.
You don't have authority to act independently.

Vowel Harmony: Quartet, mü / mu / mi / mı

There are too many examples of this, and I'll need more than one pill of Tylenol if I see **mazıyor or something like that. And this is notable for being the only category where the vowel harmony is Quartet.

Something's not right. Back to pending status. Addressed

-madı / mazdı UNRESOLVED

-madi

Sınavdan önceki gün 'bunun nasıl yapıldığını anlamadım' diye ağlayan kimdi acaba!
Well, who was the one crying saying "I don't understand how this is done" the day before test?

Derslere çalışırken bir mola verdim ve gitar çalmaya başladım, ama kendimi durduramadım.
I took a break from learning the lessons and started playing guitar, but I couldn't stop myself.

Tanrı biliyor melek olmak istemediğimi!
God knows I don't want to be an angel!

Bu senin hatan, anlattıklarından kimse bir şey anlamadı.
It's your fault, nobody could understand your explanations.

Neden bunu okuldayken söylemedin?
Why didn't you say while in school?

Ciddi bir şekilde çıkmak istediğin tek bir erkek bile olmadı mı?
There really was no guy at all you wanted to go out with?

-mazdı

Bu durumda bunlar muhtemelen kaçınılmazdı.
In this situation, these were probably unavoidable.

Hani sen kimselere yenilmezdin
Well, you weren't defeated by anyone

Senin görüş alanına girmeyi başaramazdım.
I couldn't enter your field of vision.

The absence of direct objects with the -mazdı forms may be a sign? But there's no direct object in tek bir erkek bile olmadı either. I just need to see more of this, but since -medi is Duet, this is not the same morpheme as in -miyor at least.


-meyecek UNRESOLVED

Eğer bana daha fazla iş vermeyeceksen memnuniyetle kabul ederim.
If you don't bring me more hassle I'll gladly accept it.

Söyledim, artık vazgeç! Sonuç hiçbir şekilde değişmeyecek.
I told you, give up now! Nothing will change in the end.

Bu şaşırtıcı kelimeleri ben söylüyor olsam bile kalbim umursamayacak
Even if I were to say these wonderful words, my heart won't be interested

Bana o üzgün gözlerle bakman işe yaramayacak
Looking at me with those sad eyes won't help.

Sana okulda asla öğrenemeyeceğin bir şey öğreteceğim
I'll teach you something you never learn in school.

The filler vowels seem a bit inconsistent. Yaramayacak is indeterminable as the infinitive is yaramak; öğrenemeyeceğin has it, vermeyecek doesn't. I hope this is rule-bound. It seems that -ma- form is preferred with -acak, but:

Bir hafta içerisinde dördüncü üyeyi bulamazsak, kulüp katatılacak.
If we don't find a fourth member within this week, the club will be closed.

What is even this. I'm highlighting the whole thing so I get reminded of this thing existing in my deck. I put this under -ecek forms because it somehow looked like it, but maybe it's bula-maz-sa-k or bul-amaz-sa-k, with -k being equivalent to ~の事. Will need to wait for other examples.

- Burası tamamen bir sır olarak kalacak. Kimseye söylemeyin!
- Söylemeyeceğim!

Aynı bir şey olamaz...


-mazsa UNRESOLVED

Bunu istemezsem?
What if I don't want to?

Abla! Uyanmazsan geç kalacaksın.
Sister! If you don't wake up you'll be late!

Sahnede doğal olmazsan, dinleyicilerinde ilgisini çekmezsin değil mi?
If you aren't natural on the stage, you aren't going to draw the audience's attention right?

Gelmezsen boynunu kırarım!
If you don't come I'll behead you!

Eğer kimseyle evlenemezsem benimle evlenir misin?
If I can't get married to anyone, will you marry me?

Looks pretty consistent. There is no filler vowel, except in evlenemezsem but there might be a different explanation, since this is originally a nominal root verbalized with -le-. That said:

Her şeyi mahvedebilirim. Ne kadar istemesem de.
I could ruin everything. Not that I want to either.


Screw this. You get the same red carpet treatment. Maybe this is built from the short infinitive.

-----------------------------------------------
A few things of note.

I was thinking in terms of two morphemes, -mi- forms and -mez- forms. But there might actually be more. A very tentative and rough distribution:

-mi/mı/mu/mü
with present imperfect -yor-

-ma/me
negative imperative
with present perfect -di
with future -ecek

-ama/ame
first person present negative

-maz/mez
second and third person present negative
with present perfect -di

-amaz/emez
negative imperative < highly doubtful

So, while most topics above need to be revisited at some time, the biggest problem would be sorting out -medi/-mezdi.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-02, 18:04

476 Cards

I'll name the tenses in the following way.

- Present simple (root)
- Present imperfect (-iyor)
- Present perfect (-di)
- Future (-acak)
- Irrealis (-ir)
- Compound -iyordu (name pending)
- Compound -acaktı (name pending)

I think I need to recognize -ir as a tense form. Linguists and grammarians may object if irrealis really is a tense or not. I honestly don't know, I'll just group it together. I don't think evidentiality belongs here.


Present imperfect: -iyor- CONCLUDED

A minor correction. Maybe a major one.

-Vyorum
-Vyorsun
-Vyor

-Vyoruz
-Vyorsunuz
-Vyor(lar)

1. When the root ends with a consonant, the first vowel harmonizes with that of the root, as Quartet. The second vowel, o, is unchanging.

düşünmek → düşünüyor, düşünmüyor

2. With bisyllabic (or more) roots, if the root doesn't follow vowel harmony, it harmonizes with the last vowel.

inanmak → inanıyor, inanmıyor

3. If the root ends with a vowel, the root loses the vowel. The root regains its vowel when negative.

istemek → istiyor, istemiyor

And #3 suggests why the negative -ma- harmonizes as Quartet rather than Duet. -ma- simply loses the vowel, and so a negative like etmiyorum would be broken down as: *et-m-iyor-um instead. Looking at this way removes one exception to the rule at least, and the explanation becomes a bit clearer.


Compound Tense #1: -iyordu CONCLUDED

Bugün şu Kobayakawa denen kızın görevli olacağını sanıyordum?
I thought this girl called Kobayakawa was responsible today?

Her zaman yedek olacağımı düşünüyordum.
I thought I'd be a backup all along.

Yedek olarak beklemen gerekiyordu.
You should have been waiting as a backup.

I don't have negatives in this compound form in my deck. After messing around with Google Translate, I settled with the negatives as: *sanmıyordum, *düşünmüyordum and *gerekmiyordu. I checked them back on Google, and got legit-looking search hits so I'll go with them. Apparently, negatives of -iyordu follow -iyor pattern.

Meaning-wise, largely analogous to present perfect continuous.


Compound Tense #2: -acaktı UNRESOLVED

Çalışacaktım ama.. Derslere çalışırken bir mola verdim ve gitar çalmaya başladım, ama kendimi durduramadım.
I was going to study but.. I took a break from learning the lessons and started playing guitar, but I couldn't stop myself.

Ah evet, ben gitar çalacaktım dimi?
Ah yes, (it was said that) I was going to play guitar?

Verdiğin tüm sözler bir yalanmıydı? Hani bir grup kuracantık, sen bass gitar ben bateri çalıcaktım!
Were those words all lies? We were going to form a group, you would play guitar and I drum!

Meaning-wise, "was going to, was meaning to", but in the end it didn't turn out to be such. I'm thinking something analogous to past subjunctive, but with only 3 specimens it's a bit too early to pin it down.

I'm not going to guess negatives here. I was thinking something analogous to -mayacak, but I'm bordering on a sensitive territory here. Thanks to the polysemic morphemes, Google gives inconsistent results.

Say, **çalmayacaktım. Is it **çalma-(y)-acak-tı-m (i.e. short infinitive) or **çal-ma-(y)-acak-tı-m (i.e. negative)? And that -aya- in the middle also confuses both Google and me.

These two compound tenses may take a little longer to sort out, as the forms themselves are relatively rare and I have no real example of their past. However, I'll note one interesting result with Google Translate.

**çalışmayacaktı. → It would work. (GT suggests correction to "çalışmayacaktır")
**çalışmayacaktır. → It will not work.

I'm not really confident with what Google does, but I'll keep this in mind as a possibility.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-02, 22:11

From one card.

Ben sadece, kontrol edemiyorum kendimi.
Daha güzel şeyler yapalım mı?

1. edemiyorum. I just confirmed what I was dreading. -e/a- is a morpheme.
2. I need to re-open li.

------------------

Edit:

Not much concrete in terms of the grammar now, puzzling over -maz as found in:

Hayır, hayır olmaz.
No, no you don't.
だめだめよ


Image

Minimal pair. Kaçmaya bir yol de yok.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-03, 6:28

496 Cards

Something I should have done much earlier. This stuff is pretty new to me, as this is not a feature in Korean, Japanese or Manchu (although I know Evenki has person endings like these.)

Personal ending types UNRESOLVED

Give it a few more days and see if the tripartite division applies to all identified finite verb forms.

Let's start with the possessive endings:

1sg. Babamla anneme iyi geceler. Good night to my dad and my mom.
2sg. Kalbin yerini sana göstericem. I'll show you where your heart is.
3sg. Eski materyalizmin bakış açısı burjuva toplumdur. Old materialism's viewpoint was the bourgeois society.
1pl. Eğer her gün ilginç bir şeyler olsaydı hayatımız harika olabilirdi. If interesting things happened every day, our lives could be awesome.
2pl. Şimdi sevgili çocuklar, dikkatinizi buraya verin. Now dear children, pay attention here.

So, we end up with this. I'm going to make this into a table.

Image

And I can now reference a certain ending as a certain type. For example,

Neredeyiz? Beni neden buraya getirdiniz? Where are we? Why did you bring me here?

Neredeyiz follows -iyor pattern. From which I can deduce:

neredeyim
neredesin
nerede
neredeyiz
neredesiniz

All of which seem to result in good-looking Google results. Similarly,

Bilim yapıyorum ve hala hayattayım. I'm doing science and I'm still alive.

This alone can be either Possessive Type or -iyor Type, but a quick Google search gives that *hayattayız is a word, whereas **hayattayımız isn't. Which is to be expected, as -de and -ta are phonetic variants of the same locative case, after all.

hayattayım
hayattasın
hayatta
hayattayız
hayattasınız


-malı/-meli UNRESOLVED

Looks OK so far, but wait for more samples to determine their negatives.
Let's take a few old sentences from the previous pages.

1. Biliyorum, ama ne yapmayım? Ne yapabilirim? I understand, but what should I do? What can I do?
2. Ölmeya hazırlanmasın You should prepare to die
3. Chennem'de yanma Should be burning in hell
4. Kapanıs mutlu bir final olmadır, seyircinin alkışarı eşliğinde The finale must be a happy ending, amidst the appauds of the audiences
5. Istiyorum hepsini ama kendimi tutmayım! I want it all, but I need to hold myself!


The "should" meaning I considered before only happens as malı. And the other vowel harmony variant can of course happen.

Öncelikle bu alanı normalleştirmeliyiz. First, we need to normalize this field.
Denemeye devam etmelisin, kekler tükenene kadar. You need to keep experiment, until you run out of cakes.
Beni memnun etmek için ne yapman gerektiğini bilmelisin. You need to know what you should do to make me happy.

Form-wise, these are built on the short infinitive. Let's try to build a paradigm.

yanmalıyım
yanmalısın
yanmalı
yanmalıyız
*yanmalısınız
yanmalılar

2pl is, as usual, my guess on the form. The important thing: -meli follows -iyor Type personal endings. Google search confirms *yanmalısınız is a word, **yanmalınız isn't.

What's the implications of this?

That these forms are formed from the short infinitives suggests that the -li is not a separate verbal infix, but the same morpheme as the adjectival -li discussed separately.


Short infinitive -me/ma CONCLUDED

I'll just get to this while I'm at it. Not all the things, just the endings.

Üzgünüm, ama bugün kulübe gitmem lazım. Sorry, I have to go to club today.
Yui, çalışmadan sonra yemen için sana kek getirdim! Yui, I brought cakes for you to eat after work!
Beklemek sadece durumun daha da kötüye gitmesine sebep olur. Waiting can only be a cause for the situation to get worse.
Eğer Nagato'yla zaman geçirmemiz gerekiyorsa gidilebilecek tek bir yer vardı. If I were to spend time with Nagato, there's only one place to go.
Burgonya'ya gitmeniz için on neden! Ten reasons for you to go to Burgundy!

The last one I just googled to find an example. 2pl sucks. The result:

gitmem
gitmen
gitmesin
gitmemiz
gitmeniz

The forms exhibit Possessive Type endings. -sin in gitmesin is with extra s because Turkish doesn't like two vowels coming next to each other. Just putting these in words clears a lot of confusion.


Cohortative -elim/alım CONCLUDED
Closing for now, but look for the negatives (if the negative cohortative is formed in the same manner, or not.)

Quoting from the previous posts:

Benim hatam mı? Sevimli bir hata diyelim. Is it my fault? I should say it's a cute fault.
Hadi gecenin kapısını birlikte açam So, we shall open the night's door together
Hadi tüm gücümüzle yola çıkam Let's hit the road with our full strength
Birlikte varlığımızın amacını arayam Let's find our raison d'etre together


There is an extra a/e between the root and li, which suggests the form to be -eli. Although e/a might as well be a separate morpheme, I think it makes sense to treat the whole thing as such. The person ending is first person singular, but the meaning is cohortative, so it's probably grammaticalized as a whole.

Sen ve ben, buluşalım mı? You and I, shall we meet?
Öyleyse bunu bitirelim. Then let's finish this.



-------------------------------------------

Sadece, kortun üzerindeki kiraz çiçeklerini görüp tehlikeli olabilceğini düşündüm.
I just saw the sakura petals on the court and thought it'd be dangerous.

Vazgeçmek istesem de sorun yok mı?
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2017-12-04, 14:58

You're saying that the 3rd person possessive ending is "Vn", but then how are you going to explain "Eski materyalizmin bakış açıSI burjuva toplumdur."?

1. edemiyorum. I just confirmed what I was dreading. -e/a- is a morpheme.

Yay! When are you going to write your observations about its role?

Vazgeçmek istesem de sorun yok mı?

Sorun var. :twisted: Vazgeçmek yok! Bıktın mı Türkçeden?

As an extra activity you may perhaps start posting short phrases on HiNative (similar to ones you have started writing in the end of your posts). I did that and I got immediate feedback (several replies within 5 mins) for both Turkish and Arabic.

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-04, 17:01

519 Cards

Halfway point!


Nominal -k CONCLUDED

This little morpheme seems to be doing quite a lot of things. One obvious function is as a part of -lik, but there seems to be more. To break down:

1. Directly after root

Tüm bu bencilce isteklerinden bıktım! I'm tired of all your selfish demands!
Bu sınıftaki her şey benim isteklerime göre hareket ediyor. In this classroom, everything acts according to my wish.

The root is iste, and the plural ending -ler makes it undoubtedly a noun. I don't think this is universally applicable way of forming a noun, but is interesting nonetheless. I actually had a handful of these words in mind when I was on my way to work yesterday morning, but as I'm back I can't remember what I wanted to write. I love how my brain always meets my expectations.

2. After (seemingly) finite verbs

Sizin performansinizi dinledikden sonra bende yapabilirim diye düşünmeye başladım.
I started thinking like I could do it after listening to your performance.

Maybe I should count words like gelecek, gelenek, seçenek, gerçek, etc. here as well. Maybe yüksek too although dictionaries seem to list it as an adjective. Maybe, in a different topic.

But as already discussed in -dVk topics from way back in the very first post of this thread, this is very common after the perfect -di. That was addressed enough, but it can be used for future as well.

Kulüp kaptılacağına göre başka bir seçenek kalmıyor. As the club is going to be closed, no other choice remains.
Asla konuşamayacağımız şeyleri yapmak istiyorum, şey gibi.. oh, ne gibi? I want to do things that we could never talk about, like.. oh, what?
Bilimin yapacağı onca şey varken. When there is science to do.

What is interesting is, their base forms -acak/ecek are identical to the 3rd person finite verbs. It's probably a coincidence; -dik forms are identical to the 1st plural. Or not.

Anyways, I think this might as well be the single most important morpheme to master, and I'm going to need a name for this. I'll just call it nominal -k. Those who know the actual grammar, you are welcome to facepalm.

3. Infinitive

The long infinitive -mak/mek can be broken down to the short infinitive + k. The long and short infinitives display different behavior.

Yine de, gitmekten başka şansım yok. Well, I have no chance but to go.
Şarkı söylemek mutlu ediyor beni. Singing makes me happy.

Beklemek sadece durumun daha da kötüye gitmesine sebep olur. Waiting will only cause the situation to get worse.
Söylemesi biraz zor ama... çokda iyi değildi! It's a bit hard to say... but it wasn't good at all!

It's a bit hard to explain, as I don't seem to have the vocabulary to express this lingering feeling. At this point, I feel that -mak forms are more abstract.

1. Both infinitives can have case endings after. Maybe not all endings.
2. The short infinitive can be in a genitive relationship. Long ones, at least usually not.

Benim için bir şey yapmanı istiyorum... ama önce sormam gereken bir şey var.
I want you to do something for me... but before that, there's one thing I need to ask.
Asla konuşamayacağımız şeyleri yapmak istiyorum, şey gibi.. oh, ne gibi? I want to do things that we could never talk about, like.. oh, what?

If yapmak was possessed, it would be something awkward like **yapmağın. I'll leave it as it is for now, maybe I'll encounter something like that and have to revise this. But for now, I'll consider the long infinitive to be a more abstract idea of the action in general, while the short infinitive refers a specific action that may or may not have happened yet.

Beni ısırmadan, nazik ol. Be nice, before biting me.

This needs more revisions. This is likely overthinking, as -mak must be fully grammaticalized. But heck, if it can contrast the two infinitives, maybe it can be a hint at least. On the other hand, I don't think there's a reason to break -acak into *-a-ca-k.

------------------------------------------------------------
voron wrote:You're saying that the 3rd person possessive ending is "Vn", but then how are you going to explain "Eski materyalizmin bakış açıSI burjuva toplumdur."?


açı
bakış açı (possessed, single idea "viewpoint")

eski matieriyalizm
eski materiyalizmin bakış açı (old maetialism's viewpoint)

burjuva toplum

eski materiyalizmin bakış açı burjuva toplumdur (old materialism's viewpoint is bourgeois society)

Isn't this what happens to the possessed word ending in a vowel? cf.

Der Standpunkt des alten Materialismus ist die bürgerliche Gesellschaft.

1. edemiyorum. I just confirmed what I was dreading. -e/a- is a morpheme.

Yay! When are going to write your observations about its role?


I'm going to have to spend some time to go over my cards manually, it's not like I can search for "e" and get the clean results.

Vazgeçmek istesem de sorun yok mı?

Sorun var. :twisted: Vazgeçmek yok! Bıktın mı Türkçeden?

As an extra activity you may perhaps start posting short phrases on HiNative (similar to ones you have started writing in the end of your posts). I did that and I got immediate feedback (several replies within 5 mins) for both Turkish and Arabic.


Maybe I should give something like that a try. I haven't used any apps like this.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2017-12-04, 18:21

Karavinka wrote:bakış açı (possessed, single idea "viewpoint")

I think you realize that the same 3rd person possessive affix on açı should be used in both materialism`s viewpoint and his viewpoint, and according to your table it should be Vn; but it is actually -sı, so I was expecting you to formulate the phonetic rule that is taking place here...

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-04, 23:16

voron wrote:
Karavinka wrote:bakış açı (possessed, single idea "viewpoint")

I think you realize that the same 3rd person possessive affix on açı should be used in both materialism`s viewpoint and his viewpoint, and according to your table it should be Vn; but it is actually -sı, so I was expecting you to formulate the phonetic rule that is taking place here...


Thanks for pointing it out. I think I'm going to need some time to think about this.

With nouns, the genitive chain seems to be:

1 possessor-(unmarked) possessed-V or
2 possessor-Vn possessed-V

With the possessed getting an extra s when the word ends in a vowel. I put -Vn on the table above, but now I'm having second thoughts.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2017-12-05, 16:44

A couple more random comments.

Karavinka wrote:Only değil can take personal endings directly.

In fact yok also does.
Ben yokum. - I don't exist, there is no me.
etc
It's a phrase said so rarely that it'd take you lots more input to see it anywhere in the examples, so I thought I'd mention it.

Mamama

You may find it funny: even "ememememe" is a valid Turkish word. It's a form of the verb "emmek" (to suck). It parses like this:
em - root
e - the same morpheme as in "edemiyorum" whose meaning you haven't cleared out yet
me - negation
me - "short infinitive" (nice term, I like it!)
m - 1st person singular possessive
e - dative case

Agglutination at its best (or worst). :P

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-06, 10:02

552 Cards

I'll deal with a few shorter topics that I want to see written somewhere on the thread before moving onto the next page.



alkış applaud
oyunanış gameplay
değişmek change (intransitive)
değiştirmek change (transitive)

As often happens, I thought of a couple more words but I can't recall them now. My Turkish is still at a very passive stage. Normally I wouldn't mind this, but it's a bit annoying when I try to cite the-thing-which-I-cannot-remember.

Anyways. By itself, means "work", but it seems to be used to create nouns indicating a certain action. Actually, I couldn't find oyunanış in any dictionary; but heck, a lot of gameplay videos on YouTube contain this word on the title, I'm going to take this as a neologism. Maybe it even just means "let's play."

Anyways, I have a feeling that this is the same morpheme as in the next topic.


laş/leş CONCLUDED

Dürüst olmak gerekirse... Gerçekten eşleşmek istiyordum. To be honest, I really wanted to form a pair.
Öncelikle bu alanı normalleştirmeliyiz. First we need to normalize this space.
İnanıp inanmamam bir kenara, her şeyi netleşinceye dek bunları gizli tutsak olur mu? To believe or not believe aside, what if we keep all this secret until everything becomes clear?
Dünya, ele geçirilmesini güçleştirmek için onu bu kadar güzel saklıyor. The world preserves it so beautiful to make it difficult to come to hand (i.e. to be captured)
Elimizden geleni yapalım, olur mu? Ciddileşeceğim. Let's do our best, shall we? I'll get serious.
Eğer işin yoksa, yeni gelen kitapları yerleştirmeye ne dersin? If you have nothing to do, why not come and shelf the books?
Bütün ülkelerin proleterleri, birleşin! Proletariat of all nations, unite!

The most common theme around this seems to be a change of state. Compare:

1. Anladın mı? Do you understand?
2. Anlaşıldı mı? Is that clear?

The root in both sentences is an, "understanding." Anlamak is simply formed with -la- to verbalize the root, whereas the second one Anlaşılmak is "to become understood." Maybe a bit overthinking, but it's a change of state from being unclear to becoming clear.

3. Anlaşılan ciddi ciddi kazanmayı düşünüyor. Apparently, she's really really thinking about winning.

With -an, the word seems to mean: "becoming-understood-ly" or "apparently."

4. Herkes iyi anlaşıyor... Böyle bir sınıfta, onlarla çok kolay anlaşabileceğimi farz edebilirim. Everyone's getting well with each other... In such a class, I suppose I'll be able to get along with them easily.
5. Nihayet ancak komünistler her ülkenin demokratik partilerinin her yerde birleşip anlaşması için çalışıyorlar. Finally, only communists strive for common understanding of democratic parties of all nations.

And if everyone understands each other, they get on well with each other. This seems like a semantic expansion of anlaşmak as a whole. Hence anlaşma as a short infinitive/verbal noun "understanding, agreement."

These #4 and #5 were problem sentences to me for a while, because I was thinking in terms of reciprocity. But reciprocity didn't make any sense with normalleştirmek, and I was lost for a while. Hmm, how does ulaşmak fit in here? No, I'm not going to think about that. And actually, I think I'll close this for now.

The reason is that a lot of words with laş seem to exist as separate dictionary entries, which suggests this is a part of derivational morphology. And if it's derivational, then it's not something I'd guess and try to use productively. Of course, I might just have to re-open this if I come across something that I can't explain with the current theory.


Causative: -tir CONCLUDED

1. Bu seni ilgilendirmez! It's none of your business! i.e. it does not relate to you
2. Eğer gerçekten istemiyorsan, kaptana isimlerimiz listeden sildiririm. If you really don't want, I'll ask captain to delete our names from the list.
3. Dünya, ele geçirilmesini güçleştirmek için onu bu kadar güzel saklıyor. The world preserves it so beautiful to make it difficult to come to hand (i.e. to be captured)

1 is simply one way of creating a transitive verb using a nominal root, ilgi "interest." Broken down, it'd be *ilgi-le-n-dir-mez, literally "it doesn't cause yourself to have interest."

2 is a more intereting example, as silmek is a verb already, "to delete." I'm not going to guess how productive this is; its Korean equivalent -i- is used in fairly limited contexts, whereas its Japanese equivalent -(s)ase- goes with pretty much anything.

And now 3. While the word is found both as a noun and an adjective, I'll treat güç as an adjective here, "difficult." The whole word güçleştirmek means "to make it difficult", showing how this can also indicate a cause of change of state.


Somewhere, Anywhere CONCLUDED

Bir araya geldiğim herkes kasvetleniyor. Bir yabancı, bir sorunmuşum gibi davranılıyorum.
Anywhere I go, I trouble everyone. I'm an outside, I'm treated like I'm a problem.

Bir "one" serving as an indefinite something is not shocking. These kinds of observations are quite interesting to me, how Turkish chooses to formulate it differently from KO/JP, where the literal equivalents would use nereye as an indefinite place.

Dışarda olmayı bu kadar sevdiğine göre benimle birlikte bir yerlere çıkmaya ne dersin?
You like being outside so much, what do you say we go somewhere together?

Why does one expression use ara and the other yer? Who knows, and what am I to question it?


Göre CONCLUDED

Rüya mı görüyorum? Hiç bir şey göremiyor muyum? Are you seeing dream? Are you not seeing anything?

Of course, görmek is "to see" in this context, although the word seems to have more varied meanings compared to similar bakmak, such as:

Bu kadar zarar görmüşken daha fazla mücadele edemezsin. Öyleyse bunu bitirelim. If you have suffered this much damage, you can't fight much more. Let's finish this then.

Where the meaning is "to suffer a loss." That aside, göre derived from the root seems to have been grammaticalized:

1. Görünüşe göre ne zaman buluşacağımızı karıştırıp bayağı bir erken gelmişim.
It seems like I mixed up what time we were to meet and just came early.

2. Dışarda olmayı bu kadar sevdiğine göre benimle birlikte bir yerlere çıkmaya ne dersin?
You like being outside so much, what do you say we go somewhere together?

3. Kime göre doğru
Who says so?

1. Apparently, it seems like (as görünüşe göre), 2. if, 3. according to.

This seems similar in form with diye, which introduces indirect (maybe even direct) speech, but demands -a/e to preceed it.


Merak etmek CONCLUDED

1. Worry

Merak etme. Bunu kendi isteğimle yapıyorum. Don't worry. I'm doing what I want to do.
Orasını merak etmeme gerek yok. Her zaman nasıl yapıyorsam öyle yaparım. There's no need for me to worry there. I'd do it how I always do.

2. Wonder

Acaba neden beni seçtiler merak ediyorum. I wonder why I was chosen.
Ne çeşit bir ev merak ediyorum? I wonder what kind of house it is?
Bu şeyi daha ne kadar koruyabileceğini merak ediyorum. I wonder how long you can protect this thing.

I find both "worry" and "curiosity" as dictionary entries of merak. If this were Japanese, the two meanings might be distinguished by pitch accent and failing that distinction could mean failing to communicate. But Turkish won't do such a terrible thing...right?


Dimi

O zaman bu iyi bir şey dimi? Then (you're saying) it's a good thing?
Ah evet, ben gitar çalacaktım dimi? Ah yes, (you were saying) I was going to play guitar?

This di is probably the same di as in diye. I only have two samples, but the speaker is asking for confirmation or clarification from the interlocutor. Hm, that said... I never discussed the question mi (and its VH variants). Eh.


Question Particle: mi/mı/mü/mu

Makes question. Can be followed by personal endings, particularly with the 2nd person. Done.


Concurrent action: -ken CONCLUDED

Karavinka wrote:
-ken

1. Dans etmeyi denediğin üzücü zamanlar, ağlamayı isterken güldüğün zamanlar Sad times you try to dance, times you want to cry but laugh
2. Utangaç olmana rağmen kızıyorsun, gözlerin hüzünle bakarken gülüyorsun, You get angry despite being shy, you laugh even while staring with depressed eyes
3. Sen ölürken hala hayatta olacağım. While you’re dying I’ll be still alive.

Contrast. Even while... or despite..? I need to see more of this. Especially because this violates vowel harmony with bakarken.


Bu kadar zarar görmüşken daha fazla mücadele edemezsin.
Having received this much damage, you cannot fight much more.

Bilgi aktarılırken çelişkiler doğabilir.
Contradictions can arise while the information is transmitted.

I think I can accept this as it is. One one hand ... on the other ... And yes, this ignores vowel harmony, which at least suggests it's a whole morpheme on its own and thus should not be divided into -k-en.


Sen artık eve gidebilirsin. Eve dönerken kapatırım. You can now go home. I'll close it on my way home.

From the context, the speaker is reminded of lock the library door, and is telling the interlocutor to leave as she will take care of it.

While I mostly agree with the conclusion on the second try, I think a better explanation is: two actions occuring concurrently. They may be juxtaposed for contrast, or simply one thing happening along something else. While two verbs connected by -ip are in fact a part of the same action, those connected by -ken are not.

--------------------------------------------------------------
voron wrote:A couple more random comments.

Karavinka wrote:Only değil can take personal endings directly.

In fact yok also does.
Ben yokum. - I don't exist, there is no me.
etc
It's a phrase said so rarely that it'd take you lots more input to see it anywhere in the examples, so I thought I'd mention it.


I guess I haven't lucked into this, sounds like something one might hear from some depressive lyric. Thanks, I'll keep it in mind.

Mamama

You may find it funny: even "ememememe" is a valid Turkish word. It's a form of the verb "emmek" (to suck). It parses like this:
em - root
e - the same morpheme as in "edemiyorum" whose meaning you haven't cleared out yet
me - negation
me - "short infinitive" (nice term, I like it!)
m - 1st person singular possessive
e - dative case

Agglutination at its best (or worst). :P


BEAUTIFUL
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2017-12-06, 11:44

Karavinka wrote:Actually, I couldn't find oyunanış in any dictionary;

It looks like a typo. It should be oynanış (the verb root oyna + passive n + iş).

Dimi

It's how "değil mi" is pronounced in casual speech.

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-07, 7:53

575 Cards


-ayın/eyin CONCLUDED

-Vn?: Yaptıklarımızı mantıksız görünebilir, siz bizim kusurumuza bakmayın.
What we do may look illogical, please do not look at our faults.

Bakmayın is the only example I have encountered so far, where -ma has what seems to be genitive -Vn. The context suggests this to be a form of apology, I can't quite grasp the construction now. It's different from patlaması in that it's apparently the possessor, not the possessed.


İndirme işlemi beş saniye içinde otomatik başlayacaktır, indirme başlamadıysa buraya tıklayın.
Download process will begin automatically in five seconds. If download doesn't begin, please click here.

Isınmanızı bitirdikten sonra, ikili gruplara ayrılıp, pratiğe başlayın.
Once you're done with warming up, separate in groups of two and start practicing.

Burası tamamen bir sır olarak kalacak. Kimseye söylemeyin!
This place will totally remain as a secret. Don't tell anyone!

It seems like I was clearly overthinking back then. This is an imperative, 2nd person plural and respect. And while at it, it seems that Turkish also subscribes to the European T/V distinction.

1. Yaptıklarımızı mantıksız görünebilir, siz bizim kusurumuza bakmayın.
2. En büyük bilinmeyen sizsiniz. Böyle söyleyince kötü görünse de, sizi temin ederim. Normal bir insansınız.

The two lines are from the same character, who uses the respect speech to everyone. While #1 could be a bit unclear, #2 was clearly directed to one person. Whether this is common or not, I'll simply note this happens in Turkish. I wonder if other Turkic does the same T/V bullshit, though.


Gerek CONCLUDED

Taking a closer look at this very common word. Analogous to Japanese -beki, but far more versatile when it comes to its agglutination possibilities. Gerek usually demands short infinitive + pronominal ending, -si if it's indefinite third person, but there is one exception where it's preceeded by a long infinitive as in olmak gerekirse.

Hikayenin sonunun şekerlemem bitene kadar beklemesi gerekecek.
The end of the story will need to wait until I finish my nap.

→Future -ecek/acak.

Eğer konuşman gereken bir şey olursa, dinlerim...
If there's something you need to talk, I'll listen.

→Indefinite time, verbal adjective-ish something. The -en/an form.

Dürüst olmak gerekirse...
If I were to be honest...

→Irrealis -ir + if -se.

Ne kadar beklememiz gerekiyor?
How long do we have to keep waiting?

→Present imperfect -iyor.

Gerek yok! Gidip bir internet cafede sabaha kadar kitap okuyacağim!
No way! I'll go to an internet cafe and read books until morning!

→One form of negative.

Eğer o kadar boşsan, gidip tenis kulübüne katıl, gereksiz yere terle.
If you really have nothing to do, go to the tennis club and sweat needlessly.

→Needlessly, unnecessarily: -siz

Bugün Kobayakawa'nın burda olması gerekmiyor muydu?
Wasn't Kobayakawa supposed to be here today?

→Another form of negative.

Ben... gitmemem gerektiğini düşündüm.
I thought I shouldn't go.

→Participial, direct object.

Yedek olarak beklemen gerekiyordu.
You should have been waiting as a backup.

→Compound tense -iyordu

Yapmamız gerekeni yaptık. Çünkü yapabiliriz.
We do what we have to do. Because we can.

Yapmamız gereken as a NP taking accusative


Lazım UNRESOLVED

Gitarist olmak için çok utangaçım. Gitarist grubun kalbi gibidir, tüm gruba öncülük etmesi lazım. Sahnede doğal olmazsan, dinleyicilerinde ilgisini çekmezsin değil mi?
I'm too shy to be a guitarist. A guitarist is like the center of the group, needs to lead the whole group. If you're not natural on the stage, you don't draw attention of the audiences, wouldn't it?

Üzgünüm, ama bugün kulübe gitmem lazım.
Sorry, but today I need to go to the club.

Lazım seems to convey some kind of necessity, but it's hard to pin down with only two examples. Both examples suggest something about the role (as a guitarist in a band, a member of the club).


Zor CONCLUDED

Bana itaat etmek zorundasın. / Bunu istemezsem?
You must obey me. / If I don't want to?

Ve sonunda kim dans etmek istemezse, henüz etmek zorunda olduğunu bilmiyordur.
And if someone doesn't want to dance in the end, they don't know yet that they must.

İşte bu yüzden üçünüz gitmelisiniz, baba. Hem böylelikle, biz de birbirimize iyi davranmak zorunda kalamayız.
Then just three of you should go, dad. That way, we don't have to behave nice to each other.

It seems to be clearly related to zor, and the examples suggest being in a situation (thus locative) to do something against their will. Compare:

Kim bilir sana zorla başka neler yaptıracak.
Who knows what other things she'll make you do with force.

Dünkü gibi bir şeyi bana zorla tekrar yaptırır mı dersin?
You mean, she'd force me to do something again like yesterday?

Form-wise, zorunda seems to demand long infinitive.


Can: -a/e- CONCLUDED

Image

- Burada kabahatlı olan benim. Hep bencilim. Ve insanlara sorun yaratıyorum.
- O zaman neden....
- Yapamıyorum. Onların karşısında gülümseyemiyorum.
- Neden? Onlar iyi insanlar, değil mi?

- I'm the one to blame here. I'm always selfish. And I cause trouble to people.
- Then why...
- I can't. I cannot smile at them.
- Why? They're good people, aren't they?


Bazı insanlar Küçük Prens ya Harry Potter gibi kitapları yabancı dillerde okuyor. Başkalar dinlerinin kıtapları. Ve ben, otaku olarak manga'ları okuyorum.

Let's take a closer look at line 3. Call me lazy, but I just didn't have the energy to go over the entire deck all over again to look for something like this, so I was waiting for a clean sample to appear. And it did.

→yap-a-m-ıyor-um.
→gülümse-(y)-e-m-iyor-um.

Observations.

Meaning-wise, this suggests being unable to do something. Her facial muscles are fine, she can smile; but not in front of *spoiler*. Considering what bilmek literally means, yapabilmiyorum would suggests "not knowing how to do it" thus "unable to do," and without -bil-, it doesn't carry that extra. Whatever the reason, she can't.

Further, this little thing seems to accompany -bil very often, if not always.

Beni istediğin zaman arayabilirsin. You can find me me whenever you want.
→ara-(y)-a-bil-ir-sin. (You know how to reach me.)

Böyle duygular için ne yapabilirim?What can I do to such emotions?
→yap-a-bil-ir-im (I don't know what can be done.)

As for maz/mez vs amaz/emez, the same thing seems to be happening. Starting off with a minimal pair.

Düşler sizi güçlü yapar, bunu herkes anlayamaz.
Dreams make you strong, not everyone can understand this.

Söylesemde anlamazsın.
You won't understand even if I tell you.

Anlayamaz clearly shows the presence of -e/a-, as in *an-la-(y)-a-maz, whereas anlamazsın doesn't, *an-la-maz-sın.

However, it seems a bit fishy with the passive.

İnanılmaz! Nasıl bildin!?
Unbelievable! How did you know?!

Bu durumda bunlar muhtemelen kaçınılmazdı.
In this situation, these were probably unavoidable.

Bu mümkün. Ancak, tavsiye edilmez.
It's possible. However, not recommended.

I don't have any sample that seems to show **-il-e-mez pattern, I'll just wait a bit longer if this happens or not, but from what I can see ılmaz/ilmez already seem sufficient for "not ...able/un...able."

--------------------------------------------------------------

And a list of un/resolved topics from Page 2 of the thread.

Case drop UNRESOLVED

This is a different topic, whether Turkish can drop accusative. Never in inflecting languages, but KO/JP at least drop cases when contextually obvious at least.


I forgot about this topic existing for some time.


Evidentiality: miş CONCLUDED

I don't think throwing 20 more sentences would help here. I'll leave this as a tentative conclusion here. The morpheme suggests:

1. I am the source of information. This is my perception or memory, which I admit it might be faulty.
2. This is a hearsay, and thus may not be reliable.
3. -miş gibi suggests "pretending, as if"

Müzik dinliyormuş gibi, bir şeyler düşünüyormuş gibi, ve bir kitabı okuyormuş gibi.
(Pretending) as if listening to music, as if thinking about something, as if reading a book.


Until ~ing: -ene/ana CONCLUDED

Ölüm sizi ayırana dek razı mısın sadık kalmaya ?
Do you agree, that you will remain loyal until death separates you?

Can be followed by kadar or dek, while kadar seems more common.


daha UNRESOLVED

Ben burada biraz daha zaman öldüreceğim, sonra da eve gideceğim.
I'll kill a little more time here, then I'll go home.

Hey... Daha ne kadar duracağız burada?
Hey... How much more are we staying here?

Oh, eğer daha fazla dans etmek istersen
Oh, if you want to dance more

Daha fazla seems to be a common filler when there's nothing to really specify, meaning just "more" whereas daha çok seems more emphatic.

And as pointed out before, "than" is covered by -dan, making it A-dan daha B "B-er than A." Mostly repeating the previous post, but:

Of course, daha doesn't necessarily have to be comparative. When noun + daha, the meaning is "until, up to":

Acı şeyleri şimdilik daha sevmiyorum
I still don't like bitter things.


Really?


-arak UNRESOLVED

Sanal sınırları aşarak, dolup taşan bilgilerin içinde seninle birlikte gelişmek istiyorum
ヴァーチャルの垣根を超えて 溢れかえる情報の中
Reaching the virtual borders, in the midst of overflowing information, I want to evolve with you.

Eteğimi sallayıp hava atarak, bana bakmanı sağlayacağım!
スカートひらり見せ付けるのよ 君の視線奪ってみせるの
I'll make you look at me, throwing my skirt waving in the air!


Plus a couple more examples that are not olarak.

Eğer kimsecıkler yoksa, şimdi klübe katılarak başkan olabilirim... Bu hiçde kötü değil.
If there's no one, I can join the club now and be the president... This isn't bad at all.

Böyle düşünerek yalnız hissetmiyor musun?
Don't you feel alone thinking so?

Screw this. I can't seem to find a common theme around here other than this is not a sentence final. Maybe that's just what it is; while -ip is a serialization, this might simply be: and.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Extra:

Image

https://eodev.com/gorev/3340401

Seems like one of the native mistakes. I thought about this for about half a minute, and added the line with herkesden in Anki. A mistake -- if it's a native one -- is on the eyes of a prescriptivist.
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