Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2017-11-10, 20:42

Karavinka wrote:Technically that'd be a spoiler but I appreciate it this time

I'll shut up and promise I won't make any comments about grammar again.

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-11, 16:35

187 Cards.

Sometimes, a morpheme that's invisible is the worst offender. Say, when a personal ending is attached directly after the root.

Reviewing the past logs, -nil- needs to be checked again. I found a dictionary listing yenilmek as passive form of yemek, but I haven't come across another example of this since that card. Maybe my deck is just skewed, or there could be a different passive formation that I've overlooked. That and the problematic miş. I'll have to take some time aside and go through the cards to hunt them down. I'm also suspicious of la.

Noting another nagging little word: olsun. On the surface it looks like root ol + pronominal -sun, but there definitely is more than that. I'm wondering if this is grammaticalized to do other things than its surface form suggests.

Let's make a little summary. I think it's possible to divide Turkish verbal endings into two categories, those that can come as the sentence final, and those that can't. Those that do serve as sentence final endings would mark true finite verbs, whereas those that can't are treated as verbal nouns of sort, even as they will translated as relative pronouns in English.

Sentence Final Endings

  • dir
This doesn't seem to take a further ending at the end. While there is değiştirmek (change), I'll accept it as a whole for now, rather than trying to break it into değiş (exchange) + dir + mek.

  • miş
Not sure about this.

  • maz
  • sa
  • cek
  • yor
  • di
  • li
  • bil?
  • ir
  • none (only root)
These take pronominal endings. bil is with the question mark because I'm not sure if it can take a pronominal ending directly, it seems to require ir most of the time: yapabilirim, yapabiliriz.

Non-Sentence Final Endings

  • ip
  • mek/ma/mayi/meye
  • ken
  • en
  • dVk
I'd be surprised to see them take pronominal ending that is not possessive. They can be attached after the finite verb endings to make them not finite verbs. This list will need to go through several revisions in the end.

Karavinka wrote:
-bil-: potential

1sg. Başarabilirim! I can do it!
1sg. Artık gidebileceğim bir yer yok Now there's nowhere I can go
1sg. 1sg. Biliyorum, ama ne yapmalıyım? Ne yapabilirim? I understand, but what should I do? What can I do?


Bazen hata yapabiliyorum. Sometimes I can make mistakes.
Yarın o şarkıyı söyleyebilmek için heyecanlanıyorum.I'm excited to be able to sing the song tomorrow
Daha çok yiyebilirim I can still eat more!
Bu sınırı aşarsak nereye kadar gidebiliriz? Crossing this border, how far can we go?

Seems right. This seems to crash into even infinitive like in söyleyebilmek. Though, what is -iri- at the end of yiyebilirim and gidebiliriz? I get the final -m and -z are personal pronominal endings.


-Vr CONCLUDED
Bu dünyada, ya ölürsün ya öldürürsün. In this world, either you die or you kill.
Belki sen sana yardım edecek birilerini bulursun. Maybe you'll find people who'll help you.
O yüzden biraz rahatla olur mu So, relax a bit, would you?
Dünyanın neresinde olursan ol Be wherever you'd be in the world
Ne zaman olursa olsun Whenever it might be
Kendimi bir tarafa bırakıp, her şeyi değiştirirsem eğer, yine de siyaha çevirirdim. If I leave myself aside and change everything, I'll turn it again to white.
Sanırım içeride kalmayı tercih ederim I think I'd prefer to stay inside

Is ederim this form of etmek? Looks like. Can't quite pin down the meaning, but in general this seems to translate to 'would', but its exact usage seems a bit different. If -cek- expresses deliberate will to do something, -Vr seems to suggest what can possibly happen in the future.

-siz CONCLUDED

Her şey Onun aracılığıyla var oldu, var olan hiçbir şey Onsuz olmadı. Everything came to be through Him, nothing that came to be did without Him.
Kızlar ve erkekler, geçici dünyadaki bu savaş döneminde rakipsiz olmalılar. Girls and boys, they must be unrivaled(i.e. enemy-less, peer-less) in the duration of this war, that is in this fleeting world
Sessiz görünen ama oyununu oynayan bir kız A girl who looks quiet (i.e. voiceless), but plays the game
Kelimelerim anlamsız, ben söylüyor olsam bile. My words are meaningless, even if I were to say.
sonsuza kadar lanetledim sizi I cursed you forever (i.e. until the endlessness)

With the last sentence, sonsuz, not sizi, which is a personal pronoun. Corresponding to without or -less, but seemingly more prolific than either. A little derivational morphology, I think I'm pretty sure here.

voron wrote:
Karavinka wrote:Technically that'd be a spoiler but I appreciate it this time

I'll shut up and promise I won't make any comments about grammar again.


Ah no, that's totally fine. Don't mind it! I hadn't thought of this as I started the thread, but I think I'd actually appreciate a hint at least where the problem is not solvable.
Last edited by Karavinka on 2017-11-18, 5:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-12, 6:32

203 Cards

I'll skip the analysis and do something else today. To celebrate the 200+ mark, I'll try working through a Turkish song -- the first piece of Turkish culture that is not a translation of something else. (Well, of course I cheat. I use an online translation to help me get the general sense first.) I may start doing more of this. The four stanzas make up the cards 200 to 203.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-4YIV6bv84

Atiye - Abrakadabra

Beni böyle kabul et olduğum gibi Accept me as I am
Tanımaya çalış bir müddet Attempt to know me a while
Çöz, hadi.. Come, solve it

kabul etmek: accept
olduğum gibi: my being-like, i.e. as I am
bir müddet: an instant, a short while
çözmek: solve, open

An online dictionary suggests "solve, open" for çözmek. Is she presenting herself as a mystery to be solved, or does it connote something sexual? I'll accept both.

Aklım haylaz My mind is lawless
Farksız çocuktan With no difference from a child
Kalbim doyumsuz My heart is without satiation
Mevzu aşksa, If on the subject of love
Sev seveceksen şartsız koşulsuz… Just love me unconditionally

Sev seveceksen was a bit tough, but I think I figured it out. It's a pun with seve seve "just"; and şartsız, koşulsuz both mean "unconditional"; looking up on Wiktionary, it says şart as Arabic loanword. This kind of repeating kinda reminds me of what some Middle English texts do.

Seni severim ama kendimi daha çok I'll love you but (I'll love) myself even more
Benimle iyi geçin havayı bozma Get on well with me, don't break mood
Yaralı birinin öfkesinden kork Fear (from) the anger of a hurt person
Yok olurum sonra bak Then look, I won't be (anymore) then
Abrakadabra

I think words like geçinmek would give every translator a slight headache. Hava sounds like a very polysemous word; with the basic meaning "air" (which I somehow remember as a Hindi word), öyle bir havadayım "That's how I feel." The translation I looked up actually used "heart" to translate hava. Both mood/heart make sense as Japanese 気持ち.

Yıkılmaz kalelerim Indestructible are my castles
Aşktan duvar Wall (made) of love
Sana geleceğini çizdim I'll draw future to you
Karar senin bana uyar Decided for you, suitable for me

Yıkılmaz is a new use of -maz for me, and Turkish uses -dan for what something is made of/from. While I used will in the translation above, çizdim actually looks preterite... Or it may be perfect, I haven't yet figured out if -di- is preterite or perfect. Karar senin bana uyar shows an interesting word order; maybe poetic license, maybe Turkish is just not as rigid with the word order as long as proper cases are there.

----

About the video itself: I like the production of the video. It's not a high-budget production, but well done. The artist is constantly moving and is at the focus point, and her pink dress contrasts with the gray background. I personally find music videos where the artist just stands and dances to be very boring and uninspired; but here the camera angle changes every few seconds, which makes the video less boring... and each shot is done very well.

The part where pink paper pieces fall is a very nice touch to the whole video, it serves as a clear climax. I like the scenes where little things are scattered and fall in the air; reminds me of sakura. All in all, the artist successfully dominates every scene, and the simple background actually adds a sense of mystery, making the end video interesting enough to stare at.

I looked around quite a lot of Turkish music on YouTube, starting with "Turkish music" as keyword. Ugh. I had to suffer a lot of what I didn't find interesting to watch (visuals are very important to me), but finally I found something I'd... actually like.

Explicit question: How popular is she in Turkey? lol
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-13, 6:53

214 Cards

I'm going to close a few pending topics today, but before that, let me tackle another song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtfskG_3XfI

Aynur Aydın - Bi Dakika (One Minute)

Bana deli diyenin aklı You say I'm crazy of my mind
Kime göre doğru According to whom is it so?
Seni buralara kim attı You were thrown to these places
Çok güzel oldu That's very beautiful.

Yandın yavrum yandın You burned, baby, you burned
Sen bak elime kaldın You look at my unmoving hand
Çok geç aydın durma It's very late, don't stop the light
Hoş geldin sana da günaydın Welcome, and good morning

Aşk savaşında ele geçirildin You are arrested/seized in a love of war
Ben tarafından dize getirildin Brought to knees by me
Hani sen kimselere yenilmezdin Well, you were undefeated by anyone
Demek sonunda yola gelebildin That is to say, you came all the way to the end

Bi dakika bir şey söylicem One minute I'll say something
Seni var ya acayip sevicem I will love you very much
Ne zamandır kaybettiğin o Whenever you lost it,
Kalbin yerini sana göstericem I'll show you where your heart is

Kimine göre mantık tek yön Who says logic is the direction
Kimine göre kalp yolu Who says heart is the way
Birisi var kibrine mağlup Someone was defeated by arrogance
Bi diğerinin aşk sonu The end of another love

Tarafını seç hadi sende Well, pick a side
Çarp çıkar topla böl Crash, remove, collect, divide
Ya benim ol mutluluğu bul Either be mine and find happiness
Ya da git yapayalnız kal Or just go and stay alone

I like the black-and-white aesthetics here. I feel a faint K-pop-ish vibe from the cameraworks, but I might be overthinking.

I'm going with "one minute" for bi dakika, because all online translations seem to agree there. Is this how some Turks actually speak? Maybe, I'll see later.

This was a bit harder than Atiye's Abrakadabra, it feels like the lyrics are deliberately succinct. The word geç "late" catches my eyes - is this the root of gece "night"?

di ADDRESSED

Ancak, biri tarafından keşfedildiği gün gelecek However, the day will come when it's found by someone

It took a long time to get to this really common morpheme. The verb is keşfetmek, to discover. I'd parse it as keşfet-il-di-k-i, with -il marking the passive and -di marking... what was unclear until now. It has to be perfect, not a simple past, aorist or preterite, whatever you want to call it.

il CONCLUDED

Karavinka wrote:And a single card narrowed down the passive -nil- for me:

Yalanı fazla kaçıran Külkedisi
kurt tarafından yenilmiş
ne yapmalıyım, bu şekilde ben de
bir gün yenileceğim

As the verb is yemek "eat", and both verbs are translations of 食べられる.


The parsing was probably incorrect. I think this is to be parsed as ye-(n)-il, with n as a filler. And amusingly, here:

Hani sen kimselere yenilmezdin Well, you were undefeated by anyone

I believe in this case the verb is yenmek, with the parsing as yen-il-mez-di-n. So, yenilmek can actually be the passive form of yemek and yenmek? I could have landed on a less ambiguous verb, I won't blame my past self too much.

Ancak, biri tarafından keşfedildiği gün gelecek However, the day will come when it's found by someone

And with this already cited above, I think I'm certain that the passive morpheme is actually il, not nil. This is such a good sentence, it solves two problems and sheds a light on the phonetic rules as well: when final -et is met with another morpheme that begins with a vowel, it softens to -ed-. I was noticing this with etmek and ederim, but needed a second sample.

ceğım vs cem CONCLUDED

Karavinka wrote:A little correction, the morpheme seems to be -cek as in the last post. Though, what is this gösterıcem? Is this a shortened form of göstereceğım?


Well, copy-pasting from the wonderful lady:

Bi dakika bir şey söylicem One minute I'll say something
Seni var ya acayip sevicem I will love you very much
Ne zamandır kaybettiğin o Whenever you lost it,
Kalbin yerini sana göstericem I'll show you where your heart is

I would say yes. There seems to be no other way of explaining the difference between -ceğım and cem, other than cem is just the shorter form. But interestingly... the connecting vowel is different. From that Aynur Aydın lyric, the connecting vowel is i. However..

Image

I made a typo. Cool.
Last edited by Karavinka on 2017-11-18, 13:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2017-11-13, 13:12

Karavinka wrote: So, yenilmek can actually be the passive form of yemek and yenmek?

Yes, and bravo for this guess!

Perhaps you can consider it a bonus, you've already learnt a bunch of words of Arabic origin. For example, in the Abrakadabra song:
kabul, müddet, akıl, fark, kalp, mevzu, aşk, şart
-- they are all Arabic.

Explicit question: How popular is she in Turkey?

Sorry, I don't know. I hardly ever listen to any Turkish pop. Not because I don't like pop; I'm just not particularly attracted by Turkish pop for some reason. When it comes to Turkish music, I gravitate towards other styles.

There is some selection of Turkish pop here: https://lyricstraining.com/tr/
(This website lets you type in the lyrics as you listen to songs, in a gamified form - I quite like the idea and I had some fun moments with it when I competed against my Turkish friends).

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-14, 12:03

227 Cards

Just one problem sentence.

Seninle bir yerde karşılaşmışlığımız var mı? Have we met before somewhere?

Seninle is "with you", but the final -mız is 1st person plural. From the context, this is a conversation between just two individuals. This suggests something interesting about the personal pronouns; this translates directly to "Have we met each other somewhere with you."

This karşılaşmışlığımız would have scared me from adding to the deck two weeks ago. The root karşı is a familiar postposition "against"; and the verb karşılaşmak is cited as "meet, encounter." So far, that's not a strange stretch of meaning. German does with begegnen.

Parsed, this may be karşı-laş-mış-lik-(ı)-mız. Everything between karşı and mız is a problem.

* What is laş?
* What is mış? -- this is already a pending topic
* What is lık?

la/lan/laş ADDRESSED

In any case, this topic is opened again as un/resolved.

n

O yüzden biraz da olsa hazırlansan iyi edersin! So, it'd be good if you prepare yourself a little!

This is cheating. A dictionary simply gave hazırlanmak as reflexive of hazırlamak. I first thought if -lan- as a whole is one morpheme, but not only I was wrong, but I got spoiled here. Though that also leads to another question: if the form is to be broken into hazır-la-n-sa-n, what is la?


It seems something more complex is going on behind -la, -lan, -laş.

lik CONCLUDED

A few examples pulled from the deck.

Bütün dünya cehennem karanlığına bürünmüş This whole world is getting covered by darkness of hell
O zaman hadi çığlık atalım tüm gücümüzle! Then let's scream with all our power!
Günışığı gösteriyor gölgeleri, alacakaranlık renk değiştiriyor. Sunlight shows shadows, dusk changes color.
Bak, ilgisizlik döne döne dans ediyor Look, indifference dances around and around

This is a nominal. Karanlık "darkness," çığlık "scream", alacakaranlık "half-darkness" i.e. dusk, ilgisizlik "indifference, apathy."

The -lik that appears in words like şimdilik (now) as opposed to şimdi (now) is still puzzling. Well, I'll get it eventually.


Acı şeyleri şimdilik daha sevmiyorum I still don't like bitter things.

Yes. And what would even be the part of speech. I have noticed şimdi and şimdilik both translating as "now." Maybe one is just noun, as şimdilik daha literally means "until now", with a postposition.

li CONCLUDED

Ama aslında hiç uyumlu değil. But it's not fitting at all.
Benim hatam mı? Sevimli bir hata diyelim.It's my fault? Let's say it's a lovely fault.

Simply, it forms an adjective. Take a root, put an adjective ending and then put a nominalizing ending to make an abstract noun out of it. Seems similar to what German does with -lichkeit.


Well, I've concluded -li as an adjective ending, and I made a guess that -dVk corresponds to past participle. If -dVk divides into the past -dV and the nominalizing -k, then there's no reason why the same -k would not be able to come after -li. I think I somehow forgot to write this last bit.

miş ADDRESSED

Now the problem sentence from above.

Seninle bir yerde karşılaşmışlığımız var mı? Have we met before somewhere?

The verb in this sentence is var. Karşılaşmışlığımız is just a noun, "our-having-met-each-other", and the final -miz is possessive. While this sounds very, very strange in English, this is surprisingly faithful to the original Japanese.

どこかで会ったことある? Dokokade attakoto aru?

Where karşılaşmışlığımız would correspond to attakoto, "thing that (we have) met." It may be the translator is just being literal, but even then, I'll trust that translator. This sheds some light on mış as well. Possibilities:

- Past experience
- Uncertainty in general
- Memory
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-16, 12:28

261 Cards

I'm adding more cards, but I'm still trying to be careful when it comes to vocabulary. I'm not worried about active recall at all; I'll start worrying about it when I hit 5k cards at least. But when I have too many words that appear only once, these are hapax legomena as far as I'm concerned and can be a burden on the memory, even if I'm exploiting familiar contexts.

So, to that end, I'm mining from anime subtitles in Turkish. That's kinda low as far as learning resources go, but I'm not ashamed of it. The core of my small Turkish knowledge is based on hacking Vocaloid lyrics translated into it. Can't go much lower than that already, and why not use an anime if I can quote most of the lines from memory in the first place. Sometimes translators take liberty, of course, but how they deviate from literal rendition is interesting to observe as well.

Many of the cards I'm mining from them contain little new vocabulary, as I think it's just as important to see them in different contexts (and with different endings). And some of them seem useful one-liners to base conversations upon as well.

Bilmem. I don't know. (So far, this is the shortest card in the deck, with this just one word-sentence.)
Sen de buradasın, değil mi? But you're here, aren't you?
Ne yapmaya çalışıyorsun!? What are you trying to do?!
Aramızdaki ilişkinin ne olduğunu ben de bilmek isterdim. I also want to know what the relationship between us is.

If it takes me five seconds to recognize that aramızdaki is *ara-mız-da-ki, that'd be far too late when I listen to Turkish in natural speed. Yapmaya çalışmak looks like an expression that needs to be recognized as a whole, etc.

-cil CONCLUDED

Hayır, aslında o kadar bencilce davranmıyorum. No, I'm not really behaving selfishly.
Gün boyunca sıcak ve insancıl bir kız. A girl who is warm and humane during the day
Bu şaşırtıcı kelimeleri ben söylüyor olsam bile. Even if I say these wonderful words

I'm not sure if there's much point overthinking if this is adjective or adverb. Either way, the words with this ending describe things. Bencil is pretty interesting, as it is formed with the pronoun ben as the root.

And they can further take more endings.

Tüm bu bencilce isteklerinden bıktım! I'm fed up with all these selfish demands

From ben to bencil "selfishly" and to bencilce "selfish." Did I say -ce was an adverbial in a previous post? I did. How do I feel now? Honestly, not much. This is a piece of derivational morphology, and I highly doubt either -ce or -cil can be universally placed after any word. In other words, I'm not going to guess new words and use the endings productively, it's something I only need to recognize when I see it. Case closed. Except:

-ıyla ADDRESSED

Her şey Onun aracılığıyla var oldu. Everything came to be through Him

The root is ara, between, with aracılık hacked apart as *ara-cı-lık. I understand the final -la is a case ending. Turkish doesn't prevent -kl- consonant cluster, even at the morpheme boundaries:

Yani, erkekleri bir patatesle aynı seviyede gördüğünü varsayabiliriz. So, we may guess she sees the boys at the same level with a potato.

And -la demands a connecting vowel when whatever that precedes it ends with a vowel.

Tek kelimeyle In short

This suggests the whole thing needs to be hacked as either: *ara-ci-lik-i-(y)-la or *ara-cil-lik-i-(y)-la. I'm not going to tear my hair apart whether this is -ci or -cil, though as aracılık is a complete word on its own right. The bigger problem is what looks like accusative -i and dative -la appearing simultaneously.

Bu galakside ki organik yaşam formlarıyla iletişim kurabilmek için geliştirilmiş insansı ara yüz olarak niteleyebiliriz.
We may describe it as a humanoid interface developed to contact with the organic life forms in this galaxy.
Memnuniyetimi abartıyla karşılamak zor.
It's difficult to respond with exaggeration to my happiness, i.e. It's difficult to exaggerate my happiness.

I haven't been really talking about the case endings, because 1. it's messy to form any correspondences with English prepositions anyways and 2. I've been establishing connection between Turkish case endings and that of Japanese and Korean. And I don't think it's going to be worth the effort to try to scrutinize them in detail, as they're bound to be idiomatic. However, this seems to demand some explanation. Except I don't have any.

-ci CONCLUDED

Bu oda yalnızca seyirciler için This room is only for spectators.
..dedi yeni transfer olan öğrenci, yüzünde sönük bir gülümseme ile. ..said the new transfer student, with a faint smile on the face
Öteki işçi partileri karşısında komünistler özel bir parti değildir. Communists are not a special party against other worker parties.
Yardımcım ol. Be my helper, i.e. help me.

Seyirci, öğrenci, işçi, yardımcı. Seems to correspond to English -er, as in a person. I think it's safe to close this right away.

Vowel loss CONCLUDED

Birisi var kibrine mağlup Someone defeated by arrogance
Saç şekli hergün değişiyor. (Her) hairstyle changes every day.

kibrine < kibir 'arrogance'
şekli < şekil 'style'

I'll simply note this happens. Both words are bisyllabic, and when followed by an ending with the same vowel as the last syllable vowel, the last syllable vowel disappears. This kind of phenomenon actually reminiscent of Semitic, and indeed Wiktionary lists both as Arabic loanwords. (And goddamnit I learned Biblical Hebrew. I should know what this is called but I can't remember.)

I don't know how regularly this happens to bisyllabic Arabic loanwords -- after all, why is it loaned as bisyllabic when the Arabic word is šakl? I don't think fark is bisyllabic -- but if Turkish fails to follow (or not follow) this with one loanword, that would be.. *gasp* an exception.

Well, I'm only listing two, and there might be more buried somewhere in the deck that I simply haven't noticed. (After all, it's getting harder and harder to check every single card) This may not be confined to Arabic loanwords. But it's kinda important to know this happens when an online dictionary fails to recognize something like şekli.

-bilir CONCLUDED

Uzaylı, benim varlığıma uygun bir terim olabilir. An alien, could be a fitting term for my existence.
Bu galakside ki organik yaşam formlarıyla iletişim kurabilmek için geliştirilmiş insansı ara yüz olarak niteleyebiliriz. Bu ben olabilirim. We could describe ..(see above)... That would be me.
Bilgi aktarılırken çelişkiler doğabilir. Contradictions could occur as information is transmitted.
Neden beni buraya getirdin söyleyebilir misin? Could you tell me why you brought me here?
Ne yapabilirim? Nasıl yapabilirim? What could I do? How could I do?

First thing first. I already concluded that bil- expresses "being able to." What I did not notice is that this seemingly violates vowel harmony. Why yapabilirim instead of **yapabılırım? I think the answer is similar to what happens to -ki in expressions like uzaktaki.

This -bil is not completely grammaticalized, and is the same morpheme as in bilmek, to know. And any subsequent ending harmonizes with bil instead. So... this is actually not an infix. This is compounding. Then it turns out that -ki ignoring vowel harmony isn't necessarily because it's non-Turkic in origin as well.

Form-wise, it's a combination of two known morphemes, -bil and -Vr. But it's a but muddy when it comes to the semantics.

Ne yapabilirim?

Here, in the context, the speaker is desperate and doesn't know what to do. "What could I do" sounds like a proper interpretation.

Bu ben olabilirim.

But in this context (near ~21:40), the speaker simply describes who she is, interpreting it as "This could be me" doesn't sound quite fitting. Further, the ending -im suggests that it's saying literally "I could be this." (Japanese simply says: それが私, "that is me.") I'd expect olurum as "I would", as seen in:

Yok olurum sonra bak. Look, then I will be gone.

I'm not arguing with the translator, of course. I'm thinking that -bilir is simply a bit more general in describing things in (what would be equivalent to) subjunctive. This might just be an idiomatic thing, but it's just another thing I decided not to question and accept as it is when I see it again somewhere else. So, I'm closing the topic.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-18, 5:46

296 Cards

Let's deal with one of the most annoying pending topics. I'm going to conclude this. It's not because I think my interpretation is perfect; it may be imperfect, but I don't think I'm too far off the mark. I'll look at this again some time later and either feel proud or incredibly stupid. I hope it's the latter.

-Vn/V CONCLUDED

I think I've been looking at the wrong way. I think there are two different processes going under this. Like already noticed in a previous post, Turkish marks the possessed, not necessarily the possessor.

Binlerce kiraz ağacı geceye karışıyor, sesin bile ulaşamıyor
Thousands of cherry trees mix into the night, your voice doesn't even reach

English will simply put the two words next to each other. German will compound. Japanese will use -no as sakura-no-ki. Turkish will wrap the possessed with -i; kiraz ...i. Likewise:

Meditasyon kapısından geçmek, ve arınıp mutluluğa ulaşmak için
To pass the gate of mediatation, and to reach the pure happiness

Bugüne kadarki tüm toplum tarihi, sınıf mücadeleleri tarihidir.
The history of all societies up to today, is the history of class struggle.

Like kiraz, meditasyon and sınıf are unmarked. If the first word is unmarked, and is followed by another word ending in -i, this is more akin to compounding than possessive. What seems important here is that the three in fact carry one idea each: "sakura tree", "meditation gate," "class struggle." I'll call the second -i simply a "wrap"; I'm sure there's a much smarter way of calling this. Please don't feel insulted.



And the actual 3rd person possessives. These are two separate ideas connected only by genitive.

Kapanıs mutlu bir final olmalıdır, seyircinin alkışarı eşliğinde
The finale must be a happy ending, among the applauding spectators

Seyircinin alkışarı does not carry a single idea like "sakura tree" or "meditation gate"; spectator and applauds are two different ideas. But what was confusing, was that Turkish still wraps this around with -i, which may disappear when a different case ending is attached. But at least, the above sentence shows the wrap because it's followed by something too long to be a postposition.

Sürekli, annemin yaptığı tatlıları yediğimden olsa gerek.
It must be because I've eaten sweets made by my mom all the time.

The actual genitive construction is probably annemin tatlıları, and yaptığı corresponds to tatlıları and shares the same accusative, which also happens to be -i. The wrap assimilates into the accusative. It's not weird for an adjective and a noun to share the same accusative in IE languages.

Kalbime hafiften göz atmak istemez misin? Sadece istediğin şeylerle dolu değil mi?
Won't you take a slight glance at my heart? Isn't it full only of desired things?

Istediğin şeyler has 3sg because it is referencing kalp, I suppose. Literally it would be like "filled of things of desiring"; the wrap disappears because of -le.

Hadi gecenin kapısını birlikte açalım!
Let's open the door of night together!

However, *gece-(n)-in kapı-(s)-ı-(n)-ı. The wrap doesn't need to drop when an accusative is followed, and is optional? Or was it accusative that was dropped above? This is a different topic, whether Turkish can drop accusative. Never in inflecting languages, but KO/JP at least drop cases when contextually obvious at least. ADDRESSED

Bilimin sınırlarının ötesinden geldim buraya
I came here from beyond the borders of science

This was a problem sentence a few posts ago. "Beyond", "border" and "science" each express different meanings, and this is just two genitives in chain:

First, bilim-in sınır-lar-ı makes "borders of science", and this construction takes further genitive as a whole, an NP if you will, to form: bilimin sınırları-(n)-ın ötesinden.

Bunun kaderin bir oyunu olduğuna inanıyorum
I believe this to be a game of fate.

A little headache, but *bu-(n)-un kader-in bir oyun-u ol-du-k-u-(n)-a. But in the end, the main part is *kader-in bir oyun-u, and it displays the same behavior, and bir seems to fit in comfortably between the genitive chain.

The remaining questions still exist, though. Turkish inserts filler consonants between morphemes because it doesn't like two vowels coming in a row; that's fine. But when is it -s- and when is it -n-? And when would it be -y-? I'll leave this as a separate topic to be resolved. ADDRESSED



And a quick look at the first and second persons:

Yükselen kalp atışlarımı hisset, ve ne zaman hazır olursan elimi tut.
Feel my rising heart beats, and take my hand when you are ready.

Seni herkesten daha çok tanıyorum - o yüzden bana her şeyini göster!
I know you better than anyone - so, show me all of you!

And of course, I'll have to conclude that the 2nd person is also -Vn. Damn you Turkish. The extra final -i in kalp atışlarımı and her şeyini are accusative. The sentence shows kalp atışları instead of **kalbın atışları because "heartbeat" is a single idea.

So, from the previous post.


Karavinka wrote:
Bilimin sınırlarının ötesinden geldim buraya I came here from beyond the borders of science

I don't think this was completely off, but I did overlook bilimin. The word is not followed by another that begins with a vowel, so why not just **bilimi? Similarly:

1. Bir iki, dünyanın tam köşesinde One, two, right at the corner of the world
2. Pop müziğin duygularından şarkı yapalım mı? Shall we make a song with the emotions of pop music?
3. Sana okulda asla öğrenemeyeceğin bir şey öğreteceğim. I'll teach you something they never teach at school

Here, dünyanın and müziğin are the possessors of köşe and duygular. With #3, whether öğrenemeyeceğin is also possessive is a bit muzzy as the word is some kind of verbal, but if öğrenemeyecek is broken down into öğrenmek-e-cek, that'd be a new use of cek.

The ones without -n.

4. Eminim insanların gözleri kamaşıcak. Surely, people's eyes will dazzle
5. Bu deftere adı yazılan insan, ölür.The human whose name is written is on this notebook, will die
6. Hadi gecenin kapısını birlikte açalım. Let's open the door of the night together

With all these examples -- particularly adı that raised the question in the previous post -- it can be interpreted as accusative instead. So, I think I'll have to settle with the idea that 2nd and 3rd possessive affixes are both -Vn. Unlikely as it sounds to me right now, I can't argue with Turkish. Maybe all of this is me being stupid, though.

That said, I have a bad feeling that this will remain one of the last lingering thing to get right in Turkish. Note to my future self: I'll probably come back to this, so be prepared.


1. Dünyanın ... köşesin. Dünyanın is simple enough, I'm assuming the second to be köşe-(s)-i-(n)-de.
2. Pop müziğin duygularından şarkı. The first two have the expected -in, wrapped with şarkı. That -dan is interesting to note. I'm thinking: {(müziğin duygularından) şarkı}.
3. Öğrenemeyeceğin bir şey. Why did I quote this? Um, oh yeah, a verbal with the future -cek with -in at the end seems to be equivalent to present participle, though in this case it'd be more natural to use relative clause in English.
4. İnsanların gözlerı. Simple, insanlar + genitive and wrapping with gözlerı.
5. Adı. This is just an accusative.

6 was discussed above.

Some compounding seems to happen this way:

günışığı (sunlight) : gün (day, sun) + ışık (light)

Interestingly, not only gün , but also ışık takes -ı. It's my second time encountering a language where a possessed word also must be marked in such a way; the first was Ainu.


Maybe I should have noticed this by this point, though. It seems rather arbitrary whether these forms are treated as one word or written as two words; that's a matter of idiomatic use. The -i- in the middle of günışığı might be -in with n dropped, or something else - a filler vowel to prevent consonant cluster.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-18, 13:00

No new cards from yesterday. Anki greeted me with 88 Turkish reviews this morning. That is not pretty. I want to be a bit clearer with the personal verbal endings. (I think I'm just digging myself deeper in the grave.)

Personal Endings with -yor- CONCLUDED

I'll deal with something I should have a long time ago. Let's start with -yor-, which I think could be described as present imperfect.

-yorum
-yorsun
-yor

-yoruz
-yorsunuz
-yor(lar)

1sg. Onların da bana benzer durumda olduklarını düşünüyorum. I think they're in circumstances similar to me.
2sg. Hizmetçi elbisesi içinde çok çekici görünüyorsun. You look very attractive in a maid costume.
3sg. Sonuçta, hiçbirine katılmadı. Ne yapmaya çalışıyor? In the end, she didn't join any. What is she trying to achieve?
1pl. Yaptığı her eylemin bir sebebi olduğuna inanıyoruz. We believe all of her actions have a meaning.
2pl. Kapıyı neden kilitliyorsunuz?! Why are you locking the door?!
3pl. Gün geçtikçe, saçına bağladiğı tokalar artıyor. Each passing day, the number of places she ties hair increases.

Karavinka wrote:Absolutely unlikely for a SOV agglutinating language to me at least, but ki is a relative pronoun like "that." What if the -ki at the end of those words is actually a full, relativizing morpheme, and is not of Turkic origin in the first place? That would at least solve another nagging problem, that it seems to violate the vowel harmony, that it's -daki instead of **-dakı.


With -ki, it coincided that it happened to be of Persian origin, but on a closer look -yor- ignores vowel harmony as well, as -yor- is unchanging and whatever follows harmonizes with -yor-, not the root. There seems to be a verb yormak in the dictionaries, but I can't fathom what kind of grammaticalization and semantic change would be necessary to get from there to present imperfect tense marker. Unlike bilmek, I'll call this *gasp* an exception.

The 3pl ending -lar seems all but optional. I have encountered far more examples without -lar than with.

So, istemek (to want) conjugates:

istiyorum
istiyorsun
istiyor
istiyoruz
istiyorsunuz
istiyor(lar)

In the negative, mi- is placed before yor.

istemiyorum
istemiyorsun
istemiyor
istemiyoruz
istemiyorsunuz
istemiyor(lar)

Although the root is iste-, it's realized as isti- in the positive probably because it assimilates to yor-. Mi harmonizes with the root. With ağlamak (to cry):

ağlıyorum
ağlıyorsun
ağlıyor
ağlıyoruz
ağlıyorsunuz
ağlıyor(lar)

ağlamıyorum
ağlamıyorsun
ağlamıyor
ağlamıyoruz
ağlamıyorsunuz
ağlamıyor(lar)

Personal Endings with -di- CONCLUDED

Similar endings seem to apply in different tenses as well. With the perfect -di:

-dim
-din
-di
-dik
-diniz
-di

istedim
istedin
istedi
istedik
istediniz
istedi

1sg. Sonsuza kadar lanetledim sizi I curse you until the very end
2sg. Muhtemelen dün de burada bekledin, değil mi? Probably you waited here yesterday as well, right?
3sg. Seni buralara kim attı? Who brought you here?
1pl. Hiçbir şekilde bu zaman diliminden daha geriye gitmeyi başaramadık. We couldn't succeed to go past this time frame at all.
2pl. Beni neden buraya getirdiniz? Why did you bring me here?
3pl. Bu durumda bunlar muhtemelen kaçınılmazdı. In this situation, these were probably inevitable.

This took a long time because I couldn't identify 1pl example until yesterday. I had this card lingering around in my deck for a while, though:

Yapmamız gerekeni yaptık çünkü yapabiliriz. We do what we need to do, because we can.

This was a problem sentence for a long time, I was suspecting if -tık was some kind of nominalizing function, -dVk discussed a few times already. But "we do because we could" - yaptık çünkü yapabiliriz looks like a cleaner and more straightforward interpretation. This happened a lot; I see a thing, I wonder what it is, cannot deduce until I see something else.

So, the plural endings are different. Unlike -yor-, this is subject to vowel harmony.

Senin için çok mutluydum! I was very happy for you!
Sen öldüğünde de hala hayatta olacağım. When you are dead I'll be still alive.
Daima Külkedisi olmayı arzuladım. I've always wanted to be Cinderella.

Further, -di- can change into -ti- if the root ends with unvoiced consonant.

Tüm bu bencilce isteklerinden bıktım! I'm sick of all these selfish demands!

I highly doubt -di by itself is any kind of preterite.

Aramızdaki ilişkinin ne olduğunu ben de bilmek isterdim. I also want to know what the relationship between us is.
Ancak, biri tarafından keşfedildiği gün gelecek. However, the day will come when it's found by someone

One is clearly present, the other is future. The first probably translates better as: "I've wanted to know", the second as "when it will have been found."

Personal Endings directly after root ADDRESSED

-(y)im

Bilim yapıyorum ve hala hayattayım. I'm doing science and I'm still alive.
Ben dünyanın bir numaralı prensesiyim. I'm the number one princess in the world.
Öyle ya, ben de aynı haldeyim. Well, I'm in the same situation.
Böyle bir erkeğim. I'm such a guy.
Ne kadar aptalım, ben... I'm such an idiot..

Careful:

Anladıysan eğer, diz çök ve beni prensesim diye çağır. If you got it, kneel down and call me "my princess."

This is confusingly similar to the possessive. May even be identical. (After all, Google translates erkeğim as "my man.") What seems to happen:

1. Vowel harmony.
2. -yim after a vowel. (haldeyim, hayattayım)
3. -im after most consonants. (aptalım, Türküm)
4. following -k, **-kim changes to ğim. (erkeğim)
5. Then why the hell is one prensesim and the other is prensesiyim?!

Function-wise, I think it's safe to claim that this serves similar to a copula, and seems to be working with nouns, adjectives and adverbials. Naturally, they need not be in the present.

Ne kadarında ciddiydin? How serious were you? i.e. To what extent you were serious?

This suggests that, unless there is a clear mark of other tense, it's safe to assume these are present by default.



Another problem comes when they're after verbal roots.

Beni kalbinle çağır, neredeysen hemen oraya geleyim. Call me with your heart, I will come there wherever it is.
O yüzden lütfen bırak da hep seninle olayım. So, please let me always be with you.

These are attached directly to the verbal root, gel- and ol-. And it's not **gelim, but geleyim, not **olım but olayım. This is analogous to prensesiyim, the vowel between the root and -yim is simply subject to vowel harmony. (I don't want to think why it can't be something like **olıyım. Why haven't I opened a topic about vowel harmony yet? Because that most likely is the final boss of the game)

But interestingly, **gelim actually passes the Google Test, that it gets recognized and is translated to "I come" by Google Translate.

Three possibilities.

1. The -im and -iyim forms are indeed different and I need more specimens.
2. The -im and -iyim forms are different, but used carelessly by many.
3. The -im and -iyim forms are simply variants of each other.

I'm leaning towards 3 > 1 > 2 in terms of plausibility. I know, it's probably just a wishful thinking.

In terms of the meaning, I feel these endings after a verbal root expresses something similar to present subjunctive; "I come" and "allow me that I be with you." I'll see.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2017-11-19, 0:54

Karavinka wrote:5. Then why the hell is one prensesim and the other is prensesiyim?!

I hope you won't mind this comment because you already have all the ingredients for the answer.

Ben dünyanın bir numaralı prensesiyim. -- because here, it's in a possessive construction: dünyanın prensesi!

EDIT: I've re-read your post and I feel an urge to comment on one more thing. Tell me if you won't like it.
5. Adı. This is just an accusative.

This is actually possessive (in the sentence you quoted). Yes, for the noun "ad" the accusative and the possessive forms are identical and you can only tell from the context. Even if you don't exactly know what's going on about syntax in this sentence, you can tell that it is not accussative by noticing that yazılan has the passive affix -ıl- (and therefore can't take direct object).

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-19, 16:44

voron wrote:
Karavinka wrote:5. Then why the hell is one prensesim and the other is prensesiyim?!

I hope you won't mind this comment because you already have all the ingredients for the answer.

Ben dünyanın bir numaralı prensesiyim. -- because here, it's in a possessive construction: dünyanın prensesi!

EDIT: I've re-read your post and I feel an urge to comment on one more thing. Tell me if you won't like it.
5. Adı. This is just an accusative.

This is actually possessive (in the sentence you quoted). Yes, for the noun "ad" the accusative and the possessive forms are identical and you can only tell from the context. Even if you don't exactly know what's going on about syntax in this sentence, you can tell that it is not accussative by noticing that yazılan has the passive affix -ıl- (and therefore can't take direct object).


First, I just want to say thank you. As for dünyanın prensesi -- I can't believe how I missed this.

And the second one. I think this was the first case when using Japanese as a "clutch" backfired. The original sentence is this:

このノートに名前を書かれた人間は死ぬ。Kono no-toni namae-wo kakareta ningen-wa shinu

The Japanese original uses the object marker -wo, even if the verb is passive kakareru, upon remembering which I concluded the same thing was happening... I doubt I would have given the sentence a closer second look; I appreciate this input. Maybe I will need to take a deeper look at the case uses. Thanks!
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2017-11-20, 13:02

You're welcome!
Karavinka wrote:The Japanese original uses the object marker -wo, even if the verb is passive kakareru

This sounds very odd with my zero knowledge of Japanese. Passive verbs can have direct objects?..

Anyway no matter what Japanese does, Turkish has an ironclad logic with regards to the verb valency: the passive decreases the valency by 1, and the causative increases the valency by 1 (you have already identified both so it's not a spoiler, just a summary of what you've noticed yourself).

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2017-11-20, 13:19

Karavinka wrote:günışığı (sunlight) : gün (day, sun) + ışık (light)

Interestingly, not only gün , but also ışık takes -ı.

The -i- in the middle of günışığı might be -in with n dropped, or something else - a filler vowel to prevent consonant cluster.

I'm not quite sure what you meant here. Why are you saying that gün also takes -ı? It's just plain bare gün, plus ışık wıth the possessive -i, with nothing in between.

Let me say again how great you've been doing. Your explanations for some points that you have noticed are even better and more clear than those that are suggested by grammars.

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-20, 18:41

331 Cards.

Another long-time beast. Certainly one of the most interesting morphemes so far.

miş ADDRESSED

Üstünde çilekle birlikte pasta, en iyi malzemelerle yapılmış bir puding, istiyorum, istiyorum hepsini ama kendimi tutmalıyım!
Cake with a strawberry on top, a pudding made with the best ingredients, I want, I want them all but I must hold myself!

Note: The object - pudding - has no real-world correspondence. This exists in the speaker's imagination.

Yalanı fazla kaçıran Külkedisi, kurt tarafından yenilmiş.
Cinderella who lied too much, is getting eaten by a wolf.

Büyük kutudan ziyade mutluluk küçük kutunun içindeymiş
The happiness is said to lie in a small box, rather than in a big box.

This translates Japanese -rashii, a hearsay, which was my first guess when I saw this morpheme. Cinderella is a fairy tale character, and does not get eaten by a wolf in most story versions. This is clearly in the realm of imagination, figurative speech.

Bütün dünya cehennem karanlığına bürünmüş, bir ağıt bile duyulamıyor.
The whole world is covered by the darkness of hell, not even a cry is heard.

Japanese helps with absolutely nothing, it says: 三千世界 常世之闇 嘆ク唄モ聞コエナイヨ. Literally, it says: "three-thousand-world (a Buddhist cosmological term) / Darkness-of-eternal-world". Beside the mistranslation of cehennem, though, it's safe to say that this is a figurative speech in both versions.

Sense sıkılmış şekilde ekrana bakıyorsun.
You're staring at the screen with bored looks.

JA: 退屈そうな顔画面見つめる君. lit. "you who stares at the screen with a seemingly bored face." The translator most likely translated -そう/-sou, which only says how something looks to the speaker, not how something really is, with -mış.

Her gece seninleymiş gibi hissediyorum
I've been feeling as if I'm with you every night

The original is Konglish from a K-pop, "Every night I feel with you." Kudos to the translator, Turkish actually makes more sense.

Bazen hata yapabiliyorum, ama hiç farketmemiş gibi yapıyorsun.
Sometimes I can make mistakes, but you pretend you didn't notice anything.

"As if you didn't notice" -- in fact, the speaker knows the addressed person did in fact notice, and "not noticing" is counterfactual.

Filozoflar dünyayı yalnızca çeşitli biçimlerde yorumlamışlardır; oysa sorun onu değiştirmektir.
Philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways; but the problem is to change it.

Marx's Thesis on Feuerbach. Instead of using just -di, the translator opted for mış. Given what was there above, I'm tempted to interpret this as: the speaker interprets the past philosophy in such a way.

Bu galakside ki organik yaşam formlarıyla iletişim kurabilmek için geliştirilmiş insansı ara yüz olarak niteleyebiliriz. Bu ben olabilirim.
....humanoid interface that was developed to establish contact with...

Full translation too long. On the surface, if it's *geliş-dir-il-miş then it raises another headache regarding the affix order. From the context, the speaker (an alien) is explaining her origin, and is unsure whether the language she uses is adequate, as she previously states: Kelimelerle anlatması zor. Bilgi aktarılırken çelişkiler doğabilir. Neyse.. dinle.

Muhtemelen anlattiğım hiçbir şeye inanmamişsindir.
Maybe you won't believe what I have explained at all.

While there is muhtemelen already, the action of "believing" is not by the speaker.



So. What do I conclude of miş at this point? The most general sense appears to be: the speaker's subjective interpretation, and none of this is concrete indicative.

This can range from an imaginary pudding to the figurative speech where the world is seemingly being engulfed in darkness. This can be counterfactual "as if" to "what looks like", and can be used with hearsay. If I were to force myself to give a translation, I'd probably go with something like: "as far as I can see / understand / speculate / interpret / express etc., but this may not necessarily be steadfast truth."

This is an evidentiality. I don't really understand what this term really means to be honest, and maybe I'm using a wrong label, but I'll stick to this because it sounds cool. I'll allow myself a few days to decide if I want to close this or revise this.



voron wrote:You're welcome!
Karavinka wrote:The Japanese original uses the object marker -wo, even if the verb is passive kakareru

This sounds very odd with my zero knowledge of Japanese. Passive verbs can have direct objects?..

Anyway no matter what Japanese does, Turkish has an ironclad logic with regards to the verb valency: the passive decreases the valency by 1, and the causative increases the valency by 1 (you have already identified both so it's not a spoiler, just a summary of what you've noticed yourself).


TBH, I think I've heard of the word valency, but I can't quite remember what it's supposed to mean. lol

voron wrote:
Karavinka wrote:günışığı (sunlight) : gün (day, sun) + ışık (light)

Interestingly, not only gün , but also ışık takes -ı.

The -i- in the middle of günışığı might be -in with n dropped, or something else - a filler vowel to prevent consonant cluster.

I'm not quite sure what you meant here. Why are you saying that gün also takes -ı? It's just plain bare gün, plus ışık wıth the possessive -i, with nothing in between.

Let me say again how great you've been doing. Your explanations for some points that you have noticed are even better and more clear than those that are suggested by grammars.


Ah, I think that's a blunder. There was a time I was wondering whether the construction was ...i ...i instead because I was still doubting why in the world would the possessed be marked, not the possessor, even though I knew Ainu often does exactly that. The earlier notes will of course contain such blunders. Thank you for the comments and encouragements!
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-21, 6:42

miş ADDRESSED

A quick update. Card #348 contains the following:

- Uzun zamandır böyle dememiştim.
- Ben daha bir kaç gün önce duymuştum.
----
- これ言うのも久しぶりですね。
- 俺は先日聞いたばかりですが。


This is a piece of conversation between two individuals.

"It's been a long time to say this."
"Though I just heard it a few days ago."

I think this adds a little more clarification on miş. First thing first, the form is followed by a perfect -di, each with pronominal -m for the first person.

In Japanese, the first sentence ends with -ne, which is a speech particle used to soften to one's claim and asks for the interlocutor's agreement. The response ends with -ga, which can function as a conjunction "but", but here also used for similar function.

Either way, both interlocutors are saying as they recall their memory. If I were to make sense out of this, I'd have to go with something like:

"It feels like it's been a long time I said so."
"It feels like I just heard it a few days ago."

One pragmatic use of such an expression would be to emphasize the subjective nature of the statement, i.e. to avoid making a claim that such and such is so, because after all, you can't argue with someone's subjective perceptions and feelings. I'm sure the Japanese will wish that they had this built-in in their language.

----

And two from the other days:

Çok güzel olmuş. It's beautiful.

This was left on YouTube's comment section. The comment cannot but express how the speaker felt about the song that was posted. Again, this is a very subjective feeling. Sense perception/emotional reaction belongs to the domain of miş. The writer could have written just Çok güzel or Çok güzel oldu, but that would be more assertive as indicative.

A similar example:

Dünya durmuş gibi hissediyorum. I felt like the world stopped.
全世界が停止したかと思われた

Sometimes Turkish uses -yordi- as a compound tense, which I'll get to later. Yes but not here, the verb is hissetmek. The world didn't stop; this is the speaker's figurative speech, "as if."

And one of the trickiest:

Suzumiya ve sana ne olmuş? What's up with you and Suzumiya?

The speaker is asking what is to Suzumiya and you, and why miş? I was thinking in line of uncertainty, because the speaker doesn't know what is going on between the speaker and the named person. But on the second look, it seems that a better literal translation is: What is the thing that I sense / speculate to be, to you and Suzumiya?



Now, by this point, I feel like whatever the linguistic term this is, there's no equivalent to this among the languages I have studied previously. But call it a cheat, I wanted to know if "evidentiality" was the right term or not, so I looked up Wikipedia and indeed, it cited the Turkish miş as an example. Damn you Wikipedia, so useful.

I'll keep this as pending for now, but I may decide to conclude this after giving myself a few more days. I may throw more usage situations in a later post, and I may re-open this and try to organize what exactly gets conveyed by Turkish evidentiality, but for now it seems wiser to simply accept this and try to get used to seeing them -- thankfully it's one of the most common morphemes in Turkish.

The fact that I'm writing this in English is another reason why. English simply doesn't have the tools to really explain, say, the pragmatic speech particles in Japanese -- like ne cited above. What I wrote above is only one of many facets of ne, whose meaning I can pinpoint only within a context. This is the kind of feeling I get from miş; it may well be something that you just gotta fucking do. Is this a white flag? Maybe. But there are other nagging things I want to deal with.

----

Extra.

Pamuk prensesin hikayesini bilir misin? Do you know the story of the Princess Snow White?

I typed in "pamuk" in the online dictionary, expecting "snow" or "white", but the result was: cotton. Puzzled for about five seconds, and then I realized: climate.

Looking up the page "Climate of Turkey" on Wikipedia, it seems that snow does exist in Eastern Anatolia and the Black Sea coast, but depending on where one lives, one may never see any amount of snow. Cotton is close enough in terms of color, and would be much more readily understandable to Turkish children, wherever they are. An interesting little piece of translation - awesome.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2017-11-21, 13:53

I was going to make a comment on the -miş- affix but I changed my mind. It's one of the hardest pieces of the Turkish grammar (at least for an Indo-European brain), and you're doing an awesome job in deciphering it. I don't want to affect it in a bad way; I'd rather stay away and watch. :)

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-24, 4:52

372 Cards

I asked a Turk a little question. He's a smart guy, but not a linguist or language enthusiast. I would have gotten a totally different and more educated answer from UniLang. The question was: what is the difference between geldi and gelmiş. He thought about it for a moment, and answered.

Geldi is present, and gelmiş is past.

I didn't ask further. He confirmed at least one thing, that -di seems to be used in very.. present way as well. As for miş, I don't accept this is just past, but is an interesting hint to how an ordinary Turk might think about it.


-ecek/-acak CONCLUDED

Muhtemelen hiçbir şikayeti olmayacaktır.
There probably won't be any complaint at all.

Güneş doğduğunda veda edeceğim, bana o üzgün gözlerle bakman işe yaramayacak.
When the sun rises I'll say goodbye, looking at me with sad eyes won't work.

Söyledim, artık vazgeç! Sonuç hiçbir şekilde değişmeyecek.
I told you, give up! Nothing will change like that in the end.

vs.

Daha fazla detaya inmek için başka fırsatlarımız da olacaktır.
There will be opportunities to get down to further details.

Sen şarkı söyleyeceksin, ben dans edeceğim
You will sing, I will dance.

Bu gece ne kadar ileri gidebileceğiz?
Tonight, how far will we go?

While the meaning was clear from a while ago, the exact form has escaped me for a while. First, the negative of -cek seems almost always to be -meyecek or -mayacak. That is, no **-muyucuk or **-müyücük. Some Turkish morphemes show all four variations, others only two. I'll tentatively called these Duets and Quartets, because vowel 'harmony'. The futurity -cek is a/e duet, whereas the question word mi- or the participial -dik is a quartet.

And further, the actual form might actually be -acak or -ecek. It's much easier and safer to say "X happens" than "X doesn't happen", because there's always a chance of problem of skewed/insufficient sample data. But now I'm inclined to think that -cek doesn't happen without some sort of vowel to connect it to the preceeding morpheme. If that's the case, then that preceding morpheme might as well be part of it.

Let's try to form a paradigm.

edeceğim
edeceksin
edecek
edeceğiz
edeceksiniz
edecek

edemeyeceğim
edemeyeceksin
edemeyeecek
edemeyeceğiz
edemeyeceksiniz
edemeyecek

I'm not hundred percent sure here. This might require some revision, particularly 2pl. While edeceksiniz passes the Google test, this was built in analogy of istemiyorsun - istemiyorsunuz, as the ending seemed to be of yor-type with -iz 1pl, rather than di-type with -k 1pl. I haven't encountered an actual sample of 2pl future.


-me/ma ADDRESSED

Muhtemelen büyük bir bilgi patlamasına şahit olacağız.
We will probably be able to observe a large information explosion.

Ne çeşit bir çalışma acaba?
What kind of work is it anyways?

Yapmam gereken deneyler var. Bitmesi gereken bir araştırma var.
There are experiments to do. There is a research to finish.

This patlamasına is *patlama-(s)-i-(n)-a, where -si is part of a genitive chain with bilgi patlaması. Patlamak seems to have the root pat, which dictionary tells me is an onomatopoeic word for hitting an object, plus with -la addressed below. The rest is vanilla.

Simply another way of forming a noun out of verbs, dropping -k from the infinitive ... or replacing -mak with -ma.

Should I consider the possibility that the infinitive is made of nominal ending ma- plus participial -k? Maybe, but that seems a bit too much of an unnecessary overthinking. If these can follow bir, it might be safe to treat them as simple nouns, and then the case variants like -meyi and -maya make more sense. And -i and -a are not the only cases, of course.

-dan: Bu olmadan önce beni kurtarmaya gel
Come rescue me before this happens.

Though this is a bit weird.

-Vn?: Yaptıklarımızı mantıksız görünebilir, siz bizim kusurumuza bakmayın.
What we do may look illogical, please do not look at our faults.

Bakmayın is the only example I have encountered so far, where -ma has what seems to be genitive -Vn. The context suggests this to be a form of apology, I can't quite grasp the construction now. It's different from patlaması in that it's apparently the possessor, not the possessed. ADDRESSED

I'll leave this aside for now; I have a bad feeling that this might behave similarly and yet differently from Japanese infinitive+no. And that one's hard to explain already.

Another question that remains now, then, is this: What is the difference between the nominal -ma versus infinitive -mak? At least re-formulating the question this way makes it a bit less daunting than dealing with -mak, -ma, -meyi, -maya separately. ADDRESSED


-me/ma+pronominal + gerek CONCLUDED

A somewhat related topic to above.

Yapmam gereken deneyler var
There are researches I need to do.

The -m is 1sg, and gereken can be divided into *gerek-en, with -en turning the whole phrase into adjective to modify deneyler. This is the simplest of this type.

Beni memnun etmek için ne yapman gerektiğini bilmelisin
You should understand what you should do to make me happy

Here, -n in yapman is 2sg. Gerektiğini is a bit messy, but I think it's *gerek-ti-k-in-i. The first -in- is repeating (or agreeing) with yapman as 2sg, and the final -i as accusative.

Yapmamız gerekeni yaptık. Çünkü yapabiliriz.
We do what we need to do. Because we can.

Yapmamız is of couse yapma+miz, with 1pl ending. I cannot but see gerekeni as *gerek-en-i, as if -en forms can take a direct object. I'll leave this aside for a while, I'm not going to argue if gereken can be treated as a noun. After all, yaptık must have an object.

İkincisi, yeni bir çift ayakkabı giydiğimde bunu farketmen gerek, tamam mı?
Secondly, when I wear a new pair of shoes, you need to notice it, got it?

Farketmen gerek, with *farketme-n to mark the second person singular.

Sana bir şey söylemem gerekiyor!
I have something I need to tell you!

With a different verb, söylemek, with the pronominal. By this time, it's become clear that the person is marked not on gerek, but whatever -ma form that precedes it. The gerektiğini is probably because it's participial. And gerek can take the imperfect -yor. The speaker still has something to say at the time of utterance, the need is not over.

Yedek olarak beklemen gerekiyordu.
You should have been waiting as a backup.

Beklemen has 2sg -n to mark the person, and now gerek has -yordu. I'll translate this as present perfect continuous in English.

Eğer Nagato'yla zaman geçirmemiz gerekiyorsa gidilebilecek tek bir yer vardı.
If we need to spend time with Nagato, there's only one place to go.

If there is a need to, gerekiyorsa. OK.

Ama her hatanın ardından ağlamaya gerek yok
But one shouldn't cry over every mistake.

Gerek yok expresses the negative of gerek.

Still, I haven't seen where gerek seems to be followed by future -ecek. Perhaps there's no need to have such a construction: if a thing needs to be done, then it's not yet done, and it will have to be done in the future. Or maybe I just need to wait until I come across such a specimen.


A little note on pronoun use CONCLUDED

Eğer Nagato'yla zaman geçirmemiz gerekiyorsa gidilebilecek tek bir yer vardı.
If we need to spend time with Nagato, there's only one place to go.

Karavinka wrote:Seninle bir yerde karşılaşmışlığımız var mı? Have we met before somewhere?

Seninle is "with you", but the final -mız is 1st person plural. From the context, this is a conversation between just two individuals. This suggests something interesting about the personal pronouns; this translates directly to "Have we met each other somewhere with you."


The speaker is alone with the named person in the context. The -miz in geçirmemiz seems to be confirming the idea that Turkish uses 1pl when English would prefer singular:

"Have we met you?" (English: Have we met each other, or Have I met you?)
"We spend time with her." (English: I spend time with her.)

While this wouldn't be difficult to understand, it's going to be a pain in the behind to use this.


-lamak/-lemek CONCLUDED

This is pretty common, but at the same time very annoying because the only way to find examples in my deck is to go through every single one of them. My tentative guess is: this forms a verb out of a nominal root.

O yüzden biraz rahatla olur mu?
So, relaz a bit won't you?

While rahat means "peaceful, relaxed", the verb is rahatlamak. I stared at this for a few minutes as the card came to review, and I got a feeling... maybe this is a change of state? Or is this what happens when you make a verb out of a noun, like?

Her şey üç yıl önce başladı.
Everything began 3 years ago.

This is another card that made me think if it was a change of state: to begin means it's not in the state of stasis anymore. But interpreting it as baş "head" turning into a noun seems also reasonable, and simpler. Because:

Filozoflar dünyayı yalnızca çeşitli biçimlerde yorumlamışlardır; oysa sorun onu değiştirmektir.
Philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways; but the problem is to change it.

Yorum is "explanation, interpretation" and yorumlamak is "to explain, interpret." If what happens with -lamak is verbalization, that also explains rahatlamak.

Saç şekli hergün değişiyor. Gün geçtikçe, saçına bağladiğı tokalar artıyor.
She changes hairstyle everyday. Each passing day, the number of places of ties increases.

The nominal would be then bağ, "string, tie." But:

Ben gözetleyen kişi bugün gelmiyor
The person who watches me isn't coming today

I was thinking in line of: gözmek (to look) -> gözetmek (to look after, protect) -> gözetlemek (to observe secretly, surveillance).

...until I found gözetme as a noun for "surveillence." (This is one instance where a paper dictionary would have been useful).

So, what is going on here?

The base verb is gözmek, and with the causative -t, gözetmek is "to make one look." A slight semantic drift gave gözetme a related meaning of "surveillance," and this was verbalized once again to become gözetlemek.

And in the process, instead of making something like **gözetmelemek, Turkish remembers where -me at the end of gözetme came from, so treats only *gözet as the root, resulting in: *gözet-le-mek.

So.

1. An originally nominal root takes -la with the infinitive ending to form a verb.
2. An originally verbal root that got nominalized with -ma doesn't repeat -ma twice.


voron wrote:I was going to make a comment on the -miş- affix but I changed my mind. It's one of the hardest pieces of the Turkish grammar (at least for an Indo-European brain), and you're doing an awesome job in deciphering it. I don't want to affect it in a bad way; I'd rather stay away and watch. :)


Well... I'm not an Indo-European brain, haha. I still feel like there's a lot left to make sense out of -miş- because.. well, the word "evidentiality" is but an empty label after all.

Like I said on the first post, sit back and laugh. :lol:
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-24, 6:47

Just a little comment on:

Karavinka wrote:-cil

Hayır, aslında o kadar bencilce davranmıyorum. No, I'm not really behaving selfishly.

I'm not sure if there's much point overthinking if this is adjective or adverb. Either way, the words with this ending describe things. Bencil is pretty interesting, as it is formed with the pronoun ben as the root.

And they can further take more endings.

Tüm bu bencilce isteklerinden bıktım! I'm fed up with all these selfish demands

From ben to bencil "selfishly" and to bencilce "selfish." Did I say -ce was an adverbial in a previous post? I did. How do I feel now? Honestly, not much. This is a piece of derivational morphology, and I highly doubt either -ce or -cil can be universally placed after any word. In other words, I'm not going to guess new words and use the endings productively, it's something I only need to recognize when I see it. Case closed.


Bence bu uzaylı ya da gizemli bir şey aramaktan daha mantıklı bir aktivite.
I think it's a more sensible activity than finding aliens or mysteries.

Bence "as for me", or as Google says, "I think" in this case. Ben, bencil, bence, bencilce -- we've come a full circle.

-ıyla CONCLUDED

Her şey Onun aracılığıyla var oldu. Everything came to be through Him

The root is ara, between, with aracılık hacked apart as *ara-cı-lık. I understand the final -la is a case ending. Turkish doesn't prevent -kl- consonant cluster, even at the morpheme boundaries:

Yani, erkekleri bir patatesle aynı seviyede gördüğünü varsayabiliriz. So, we may guess she sees the boys at the same level with a potato.

And -la demands a connecting vowel when whatever that precedes it ends with a vowel.

Tek kelimeyle In short

This suggests the whole thing needs to be hacked as either: *ara-ci-lik-i-(y)-la or *ara-cil-lik-i-(y)-la. I'm not going to tear my hair apart whether this is -ci or -cil, though as aracılık is a complete word on its own right. The bigger problem is what looks like accusative -i and dative -la appearing simultaneously.

Bu galakside ki organik yaşam formlarıyla iletişim kurabilmek için geliştirilmiş insansı ara yüz olarak niteleyebiliriz.
We may describe it as a humanoid interface developed to contact with the organic life forms in this galaxy.
Memnuniyetimi abartıyla karşılamak zor.
It's difficult to respond with exaggeration to my happiness, i.e. It's difficult to exaggerate my happiness.

I haven't been really talking about the case endings, because 1. it's messy to form any correspondences with English prepositions anyways and 2. I've been establishing connection between Turkish case endings and that of Japanese and Korean. And I don't think it's going to be worth the effort to try to scrutinize them in detail, as they're bound to be idiomatic. However, this seems to demand some explanation. Except I don't have any.


Bir pırasa ile gelmedim ama olsun çok isterim!
I didn't come with a leek, but I'd love to!

Benimle konuşma o zaman. Zaman kaybı.
Then don't talk to me. It's a waste of time.

Eğer bana daha fazla iş vermeyeceksen memnuniyetle kabul ederim.
If you don't give me too much work, I'll gladly accept it.

What happens with -yle is, apparently, that -le is not yet fully grammaticalized as a commitative case ending, but can still exist as a separate word ile, and the -i- remains after a vowel as -yle. The -i- completely disappears when after a consonant, though. And this incomplete grammaticalization is why it is benimle/seninle instead of **benle/senle.

I noted that the accusative and commitative seem to be appearing simultaneously with -ıyla, but reading over this past entry again, I think the first -i- is a genitive wrap.

Her şey Onun aracılığıyla var oldu. Everything came to be through Him
→ onun aracılığı. 3sg genitive Vn ... i

Tek kelimeyle In short
→ kelime + ile

Bu galakside ki organik yaşam formlarıyla iletişim kurabilmek için geliştirilmiş insansı ara yüz olarak niteleyebiliriz.
We may describe it as a humanoid interface developed to contact with the organic life forms in this galaxy.
→ yaşam formları. "life form" is a single idea.

Memnuniyetimi abartıyla karşılamak zor.
It's difficult to respond with exaggeration to my happiness, i.e. It's difficult to exaggerate my happiness.

This wasn't even a problem with the genitive because the base word is abartı, exaggeration.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-24, 10:13

This thread is soon going to enter the third page. It's about time I deal with the pending topics from the first page. It doesn't mean I can answer them all now. It's more about organizing the increasingly long thread and keeping track of what I need to deal with.

ar CONCLUDED

Karavinka wrote:
And another little piece of derivational morphology:

Ve betadan çıktık. Tam zamanında çıkarıyoruz! We're out of beta. And we're releasing on time!


Another specimen with -ar-.

Utangaç olmana rağmen kızıyorsun, gözlerin hüzünle bakarken gülüyorsun.
You get angry despite being shy, you laugh with the sadness of eyes

I know bakmak is to look, but what is bakarmak? Googling gives something akin to want, desire as suggested translation, but I doubt that'd make sense with the context. Perhaps the meaning is closer to stare intently, as if you desire it. You're laughing while staring with sad eyes. It's a bit too hasty to make a conclusion with two samples çıkarmak and bakarmak, but -ar- seems like some sort of intensifier.


The case with bakarmak seems to be that of -Vr already answered above. And I'm doubting this is a derivational morphology, as bakarmak doesn't seem to be listed in two dictionaries I tried.

As for çıkarmak, the listed definitions are: "to eliminate, to remove, to exclude." This makes no sense in the context. It makes more sense to see it as çıkmak with the usual -Vr. I'm going to write this off as a false alarm, for now.


-mak ADDRESSED

Karavinka wrote:
1. Ahh, akıp gitmekte olan açık gökyüzü... Ah, the open sky that flows and goes...
2. Beni görmek istersen, sesimi duymak istersen When you want to see me, when you want to hear my voice
3. Neredeyse çıldırmak üzereyim I'm almost going to be crazy
4. Kendimi aşmak ne kadar zor bir şey. Overcoming myself is such a difficult thing.
5. Dünyadaki herkesten çok sana ulaştırmak istiyorum I want to deliver it to you more than anyone in the world

Of course it's the infinitive. It can be followed by a case particle like in #1, which is sort of reminiscent of German im+Inf im Laufen.

#2 and #3 are followed by another verb, and #4 simply treats the infinitive as a noun. These feel something like European barbarians would do to me, it's not something that'd be allowed in JA or KO.


Let's write off #2 and #5 as infinitive+istemek, treating istemek as an auxiliary that demands infinitive.

Re-open: Benim için bir şey yapmanı istiyorum... ama önce sormam gereken bir şey var.
I want you to do something for me... but before that, there's one thing I need to ask.

As for #3, üzere "soon" is not a verbal root. I'm not 100% sure if I can treat üzereyim as the predicat or not, but seems reasonable if buradayim and such can constitute a predicate. Maybe üzere's adverbial origin is a hint to why it demands infinitive, not -ma+whichever case.

Nothing more to note on #4. And as for #1, I'm opening it as a separate topic below. Of course, gitmekte ends with -de, which is a different case, but I don't have enough samples of this to deal with this directly.


-maktan vs -madan CONCLUDED

İnsanların da dediği gibi, yapmadığın için pişman olmaktansa, yaptığın için pişman olmak daha iyidir. Sen bu konuda ne düşünüyorsun?
As people say, it's better to regret from doing, than to regret from not doing. What do you think about this matter?

Yine de, gitmekten başka şansım yok.
Still, I have no choice but to go.

Kaybetmekten nefret ederim!
I hate losing!

Oh, memnun musun başkalarıyla görmekten onu!
Oh, are you happy, from seeing him with others!

These show the infinitive +dan, with the sound change of -dan/den to -tan/ten because the infinitive ends with an unvoiced consonant. However, madan/meden are also found, using the k-less nominal -ma.

Kahvesini daha soğumadan bir dikişte bitiren bir erkeğim.
I'm a guy who drinks coffee in one shot before it cools down.

Beni ısırmadan, nazik ol.
Be nice, before biting me.

Bu olmadan önce beni kurtarmaya gel.
Come rescue me, before it happens.

Dünya baş aşağı dönmeden önce.
Before the world turns upside down.

Unlike the -maktan examples, -madan is temporal. -madan can be followed by önce, but not necessarily, and the particle -dan demands -ma form when it expresses temporal precedence, "before." As for all other ablative functions, the particle demands full infinitive, -maktan. The following card shows both forms:

Mutsuz olmaktan yoruldum, hiçbir şey hissetmeden yaşamayı tercih ederim.
I'm tired of being unhappy, I'd be happy living before feeling anything.

悲しむなんて 疲れるだけよ 何も感じず 過ごせばいいの
Being sad, on the other hand, only tires you. It's good to pass (time, life) without feeling anything.

And this is what Google translates from Turkish: I'm tired of being unhappy, I prefer to live without feeling anything.

That is, hiç(bir) ... meden as a unit expresses without ... ing. I'll accept this as an idiom for now.


-ene/-ana kadar ADDRESSED

Kekler tükenene kadar. Until you run out of cakes.

What happened to tükenmek here? Assimilation?


First, let's cut this into: tükenen-e kadar. The phrase -e kadar is the "until" part.

Bugüne kadarki tüm toplum tarihi History of all societies until today
Bu sınırı aşarsak nereye kadar gidebiliriz? Crossing this border, how far will we go?

And the verb tükenmek is to "run out of, to wear out." The form seems to be *tüken-en-e, with the -en being the usual ... whatever I called it before. Let's slap the label "gerund" to this, as the function seems similar to -ing in English.

The only analogous construction I've found in my deck is, unfortunately, this.

Dünyanın sonunun baş döndürücü hissiyle eğlen zıvanadan çıkana kadar!
ちょっとクラッとしそうになる終末感を楽しんで

Zıvanadan çıkmak probably translates 終末感, feeling of the apocalypse. This genuinely looks like an idiom, but I'll take the general sense is the same. Zıvana is a type of joint, and when the joints go loose then the structure crumbles. Whether I'm reading this correctly or not, however, it's clear that -ana/ene kadar is to be translated as until ...ing or until ... happens.

Re-open:

Ölüm sizi ayırana dek
Razı mısın sadık kalmaya ?

Willst du, bis der Tod euch scheidet,
Treu ihr sein für alle Tage?

-ken ADDRESSED

1. Dans etmeyi denediğin üzücü zamanlar, ağlamayı isterken güldüğün zamanlar Sad times you try to dance, times you want to cry but laugh
2. Utangaç olmana rağmen kızıyorsun, gözlerin hüzünle bakarken gülüyorsun, You get angry despite being shy, you laugh even while staring with depressed eyes
3. Sen ölürken hala hayatta olacağım. While you’re dying I’ll be still alive.

Contrast. Even while... or despite..? I need to see more of this. Especially because this violates vowel harmony with bakarken.


Bu kadar zarar görmüşken daha fazla mücadele edemezsin.
Having received this much damage, you cannot fight much more.

Bilgi aktarılırken çelişkiler doğabilir.
Contradictions can arise while the information is transmitted.

I think I can accept this as it is. One one hand ... on the other ... And yes, this ignores vowel harmony, which at least suggests it's a whole morpheme on its own and thus should not be divided into -k-en.


maz vs ma ADDRESSED

Karavinka wrote:First, maz.

Hayır, hayır olmaz. No, no you don't.
öyle olmazsa hiçbir eğlencesi yok If it isn't so, there's no fun at all
Beni bekletemezsin! Don't make me wait!
Sonuçta, geriye dönüp kaderini değiştiremezsin. After all, you can't go back and change fate.
Burada gördüğüm bu manzara, birazcık bile değişemez. The view seen from here doesn't change a bit.
Senin görüş alanına girmeyi başaramazdım. I couldn't enter your field of vision

And mi.

Ama bir türlü bulayorum. But I can't find any way.
Ağlıyorum... Hayır, ağlayorum. I'm crying.. no, I'm not crying
Hislerimi içimde tutamadım I can't hold my emotions inside
Bir ağıt bile duyulayor Not a lamenting voice is heard
Sesin bile ulaşayor Your voice doesn't reach

The problem: başaramazdım and tutamadım seem to be sharing pretty much the same structure, root-maz/ma-dı-m.

I almost came to the conclusion that maz is preferred as a sentence final without other tense elements. A lot of my "doing Turkish" is browsing through the Anki cards to find specimens of a certain morpheme; and başaramazdım just gave me a headache. Kudos for noticing this before I make a fool of myself, though.

Still, it seems like one is preferred in combination with certain affixes, and I might end up with migraine if I see something like **-mazyor instead of -miyor. Maz seems to be more preferred when that's simply the sentence final.


Still no idea. Well, some. I have a feeling that these must show some sort of complimentary distribution. Since I'm going to have to basically read over the entire deck to draw samples, I should deal with this before too late.



And while at it, I'm going to open a new topic that I can't answer yet.

-arak ADDRESSED

Sanal sınırları aşarak, dolup taşan bilgilerin içinde
ヴァーチャルの垣根を超えて 溢れかえる情報の中
Reaching the virtual borders, in the midst of overflowing information

Eteğimi sallayıp hava atarak, bana bakmanı sağlayacağım!
スカートひらり見せ付けるのよ 君の視線奪ってみせるの
I'll make you look at me, throwing my skirt waving in the air!

Komünizm, artık tüm Avrupa güçlerince bir güç olarak kabul edilmiştir.
Der Kommunismus wird bereits von allen europäischen Mächten als eine Macht anerkannt.

Normal biri olarak nasıl eğlenebilirim ki?
What is having fun like a normal person?

Yedek olarak beklemen gerekiyordu. Bağımsız hareket etme yetkin bulunmuyor.
You should have been waiting as a backup. You do not have the authority to act independently.

At least olarak can be taken as a word, expressing "being, as." I'm not sure what happens with aşmak and atmak in the first two, though.
Last edited by Karavinka on 2017-12-07, 8:38, edited 6 times in total.
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Spoiler Alert: Turkish | -30 Thai | Sink or Zapotec

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-28, 6:54

384 Cards

I didn't feel well on Friday, and I didn't do my Anki that day. Missing a couple of days of Anki could be quite catastrophic when it comes to the cumulative reviews that need to be done.

And let me try to form my first sentence. Please feel free to correct. :D It's an impulse thing; I read over what I just wrote and felt like I could write that in Turkish. Once I feel comfortable with the most salient features of Turkish grammar, I'll have to start thinking about expanding vocabulary.

Cumada hiç iyi hissetmediğim için o gün Anki'lebilmedim.

Anyways, as I'm just getting back on my review schedule, I'm only going to note a few miscellaneous things.


en CONCLUDED

Eğer kulüpde en az 4 üye olmazsa bizde devam edemiyeceğiz.
We can't continue if the club doesn't have at least 4 members.

En büyük bilinmeyen sizsiniz.
You are the biggest unknown.

Babamla anneme iyi geceler, en tatlı rüyalar görün.
Good night to dad and mam, see the sweetest dreams

Thankfully, there's no comparative or superlative form of the adjectives. The first example en az is equivalent to "at least", and the third en tatlı seems to show that en isn't strictly superlative, but can also be used for intensity. I have a feeling that there are more ways to express the same idea in Turkish.

daha and -den ADDRESSED

Note: I'm mostly confident here, but I need more than one sample of daha -dan to re/solve this.

Dünyadaki herkesten çok sana ulaştırmak istiyorum
O yüzden, lütfen, bana daha çok şarkı söylet.
I want to deliver it to you more than anyone in the world,
so, please, let me sing more.


The two sentences are continuous. It neatly shows how the comparison can be made one way with -den + adjective, and the other way with daha + adjective. Or even adverbs or interrogatives.

Bu şeyi daha ne kadar koruyabileceğini merak ediyorum.
I wonder how long you will be able to protect this thing.

Of course, daha doesn't necessarily have to be comparative. When noun + daha, the meaning is "until, up to":

Acı şeyleri şimdilik daha sevmiyorum
I still don't like bitter things.


Things get more interesting when daha and -dan are used together.

1. -dan daha + adjective

Hiçbir şekilde bu zaman diliminden daha geriye gitmeyi başaramadık.
We could not succeed going further past than this time at all.

Bence bu uzaylı ya da gizemli bir şey aramaktan daha mantıklı bir aktivite.
I think it's a more logical activity than searching for aliens or mysteries.

Still it's comparative. But:

2. daha -dan

Kahvesini daha soğumadan bir dikişte bitiren bir erkeğim
I'm a guy who finishes his coffee in one shot before its cooling down

Here, the meaning becomes "still, yet."


Loanwords

I don't think there's anything to re/solve, this is a casual observation.

First thing first, I can't really tell if a word is of Turkic or Perso-Arabic. Some signs are there, like Arabic mu- words or double vowel words like saat. And some of them violate vowel harmony.

European ones are easier to notice. To me, at least. Samples out of my cards:

trajedi "tragedy"
dezavantajlı "disadvantaged"
performans "performance"
istasyon "station"
gitar "guitar"
klavye "piano"
kulüp/klüp "club"
enstürman "instrument"
menajer "manager"
müzik "music"
bateri "drum"
burjuva "bourgeois"
materyalizm "materialism"

Why, why Turks, why so French. Phonetically speaking, burjuva is the most interesting one, how /w/ becomes /v/ in Turkish. Hmm, come to think of it, Turkish doesn't have /w/, explains also Vikipedi.

And that also reminds me, Avrupa and Avusturya. /au/ > /av/ might be a general rule.
Last edited by Karavinka on 2017-12-07, 8:59, edited 3 times in total.
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Spoiler Alert: Turkish | -30 Thai | Sink or Zapotec


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