Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2018-01-22, 7:09

1705 Kartlar

I deleted 5 cards as I reviewed today. And added quite a bit more. And hey-- we're on page six now. The scroll on the last page was kind of ridiculous, though this probably will get just as bad.


Söylemek, konuşmak, bahsetmek

Three words of similar meanings. I was going over some of the cards, and I found one card that actually contains all three words.

- Doğruyu söylemek gerekirse, şu sıralar boş zamanım olacak. Daha önce söylediğim gibi, seninle gelecek hakkında konuşmak istiyorum, o yüzden seni ziyaret edeceğim!
- G... Gelecek mi?!
- Evet. Ve konu sen olduğuna göre, henüz bir kız arkadaşın yoktur değil mi?
- Ki... dur, sen neden bahsediyorsun?!

It's a telephone conversation between a worried mother and an unemployed son living far away. Anyways, taking a closer look at each:

- Üzgünüm, ama kimseye söylememi tembihledi.
- Söylesene benimle yaşar mısın?
- Neden sana bunu söylemek zorundayım?
- Böyle bir niyetim yokmuş, hah! Senin gibi insanlar her zaman bunu söyler!
- Söylediğim herhangi bir şeyi yapacaktın, hani? Benim kölem olacağını söylemiştin, hani?
- Niçin on bana bir şey söylemeden toz oldun..?

This is by far the most numerous, but a lot of them are şarkı söylemek "to sing." With 124 instances of söyle found in the deck, I'm not going to go over all of it, but as a general trend this seems to require a direct object, a topic. This direct object can be implied, as in the first sentence cited above.

- Önemli bir şey değildi. Öylesine bir konuşma işte.
- Butün yaptıkları yemek, içmek, konuşmak, sigara içmek ve uyumak.
- Mezun olduğumda bir giysi mağazası açacağım... en azından İngilizce konuşabiliyor olmam gerekiyor.
- Sen neden İngilizce konuşabiliyorsun?
- Ama daha önce gördüğüm hiçbir otaku gibi görünmüyor, konuşmuyor ya da davranmıyor. Ne ucube ama.
- Son günlerde onunla konuştuğumda fıttırıyor. Benimle ilgili böyle düşünceler olduğundan ötürü olabilir mi...?

In the short infinitive form, it seems to mean "conversation", and rather than "saying", this feels closer to "talking." An important usage to note is that this seems to be the verb to "speak a language."

- Neden bahsediyorsun? Bütün söylediğim yazdan nefret ettiğimdi.
- Ondan bahsediyoruz, sonuçta kaçmış olsa dahi nihayetinde midesi boş bir şekilde geri dönecek!
- Doğrusunu söylemek gerekirse özellikle bahsedebileceğim bir kız yoktu.
- Senin yüzden oyun yapmamın ne kadar zorlaştığının farkında mısın? Ve şu bahsettiğin proje de neyin nesi?

Much less common, this seems to imply there is a specific reference, ranging from "talk about" to "refer to" and "mention." The subject takes the ablative -dan/den, and the neden in the first sentence does not mean "why" in this case.


Yanımda, yanında

- Bugün bunu yanımda getirdim. Oyuncunun gündelik kıyafetler giyinmiş haldeyken bile cosplay havasını hissettirebilmesine müthiş bir katkısı var.

With me, as in having something nearby. This is so far the only instance of yanım, but the second/third person is much more common.

- Bu lexotan. Anksiyeteyi aldığı için sürekli yanında taşımalısın. Bu uyku ilaci, halcion.. böyle ufak ve mavi olması tatlı değil mı?
- Neden ben yanında olduğumda hep gidiyorsun? Çok sıkılıyorum. Beraber yemek yiyelim hadi!

Second person. The first sample shows the same idea, carrying something with you, whereas the second one shows it's more general, as in "your vicinity."

- Bazen... yalnızlığımın içinde boğulduğumu hissediyorum. İnsanın yanında birisi olmasına rağmen.. kendini daha yalnız hissetiği de oluyor.
- Dört kere 1000 lb'lik bombalar tarafından isabet aldı, üç tanesi uçuş güvertesine ve bir tanesi geminin ortasına, köprünün hemen yanına düştü.

The first shows a similar idea to above, "around someone"; the second is more direct, "next to."


-seydi/saydı

Not negative version of the last entry.

- Eğer gitmek istiyorsan daha erken söyleseydin ya! Biz her zaman sana sormak istemiştik!
- Eğer balık ölseydi, öğretmen kafamı ezip tabakta servis ederdi, bilirsiniz yapardı!
- Geri dön çocuk, bu bir suç olacak. Seni korumak için verdiğim söze geri dönebilseydim.
- Şu benzerliği konuşuyorduk: Eğer Tsukimori bir içecek olsaydı içki olurdu, ve bu arada sen de portakal suyu olurdun.
- Dinle... Eğer bir haber olmasaydın, benimle bu konuşmayı yapmıyor olurdun değil mi?

If ... were. While much of this can be translated into subjunctive in English, the first is a bit of a curve ball that it seems to mean "you should have said." I'm still quite puzzled and annoyed of the little particle ya, it's possible that it's this ya that adds the extra nuance, though I'm more inclined to think it's a speech particle expressing the speaker's attitude.

Due to its nature it usually takes eğer, but not necessarily, as in the third sentence. Thid'd need to be "I would have to."

And speaking of eğer -- it's mostly straightforward, but...


keşke

- Şu anda nerede ne yapıyordur acaba. Tekrar birlikte oynabilseydik keşke... onun hakkında konuşabilmeyi istediğim o kadar çok şey var ki...
- Keşke seninle ilgili bütün hafızamı en ufak zerresine kadar silebilsem.

"Only if", implying a strong desire or wish. And unlike eğer which usually introduces the sentence, keşke can end a sentence. Turkish, make up your mind.


Getting sloppy

Seni gördüm. Erkek arkaşından ayrıldım derken yalan söyledin. Pazar günü kol kola yürürken gördüm.
Ayıp ettin be kızım. Ben seninle olurum. O halde arkaşlığın şerefine.

Of course, the full form would be arkadaş. I don't have a card in written form, but I have also noticed some speakers saying bi dakka instead of bi dakika. Just something to keep in mind: in the informal usage, a whole syllable can drop. I didn't mind it too much when I noticed burda or orda, but a whole CV syllable dropping is a bit... I don't know. Interesting?

I usually keep strange spellings as such in the deck, it's actually helpful when I listen... But one of the prime cards I've added recently:

Demek bu yüzden herkez farklı şeeler görüyodu.

This might be going a bit too far. But maybe this is what the translator is trying to deal with a dialect character. This is, after all, from the mouth of a Kansai-dialect character in the original.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2018-01-22, 22:28

Karavinka wrote:1705 Kartlar

There is a mistake here.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2018-01-23, 6:34

voron wrote:
Karavinka wrote:1705 Kartlar

There is a mistake here.



Image

Lost in plain sight. *facepalm*
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2018-01-26, 4:39

1783 Kart

I have observed a set of truly marvelous observations of the Turkish language, which this margin is too narrow to contain.

...well, I actually just went to Wikisource to look for certain figures and sayings, to see how they're expressed in Turkish.


Ben bunun kanıtını buldum, ama kanıtı bu kenar boşluğuna sığdırmak olanaksız.(Fermat)
Düşünüyorum, o hâlde varım. (Descartes)
Aydınlanma; kişinin kendi aklını kullanmaya cüret etmesidir. (Kant)
Sınırlamaların farkında olmak, şimdiden onların ötesinde olmaktır. (Hegel)
Cehalet, ayrıcalıklı sınıfın ustaca kullandığı bir silahtır. (Marx)

Though I must admit, drawing useful cards out of them is still a bit too time-consuming. Taking a look at the last sentence:

Cehalet, ayrıcalıklı sınıfın ustaca kullandığı bir silahtır.

The only word that I don't even know the root is cehalet "ignorance", but the other words are made of familiar roots. I did not know ayrıcalıklı means "privileged", but I knew ayrılmak means to "separate."
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2018-01-30, 16:45

1836 Kart

Ne zaman bir sayı yükselse, gelen o his...

I must admit that my willpower is wavering. I feel like I'm hitting an intermediate plateau. No, I'm already on the plateau. It goes without saying that the early game excitements have calmed down, and the new discoveries have become clarifications on the minor elements, that are numerous but not particularly challenging. I have a list of memos that I've meant to look up in the deck to clarify more, but it feels quite pointless now.

I carry a piece of empty flashcard in my cell phone case. The flashcards are sturdy enough not to get wrinkled so easily and it's about the right size that I can write comfortably with the card on top of the phone. One of the memos say:

bittiğimde 終わってから

The procedure is simple. I look up the ending, in both -im and -in forms to account for the person, and see if it really is used for "upon ...ing" / "after ...ing."

Bunu insanlara izah ettiğimde... Bunun, bir yalan olmadığı halde.
Dünden önceki gün bir süreliğine eve döndüm, ve geldiğimde de onun ölüm haberini öğrendim.

Of course it does mean that. It feels trivial.

I think I need to slow the pace down. Not because I cannot handle the current pace of the Anki reviews. But to recuperate something at the more irrational level. And think about what to do with the thread. I had other plans, but plans are meant to be changed. I didn't think I'd hit this emotional state this early, but it seems that I just did.

Welcome to the intermediate learner limbo.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2018-01-31, 0:55

Karavinka wrote:Welcome to the intermediate learner limbo.

How would you assess yourself in all 4 skills: reading, writing, listening and speaking? I am genuinely interested in how much one can achieve in so little time (it's been just 3 months!) if one studies as intensively as you do (just look at the sheer amount of words you've learnt!)
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2018-01-31, 5:41

1854 Kart

voron wrote:
Karavinka wrote:Welcome to the intermediate learner limbo.

How would you assess yourself in all 4 skills: reading, writing, listening and speaking? I am genuinely interested in how much one can achieve in so little time (it's been just 3 months!) if one studies as intensively as you do (just look at the sheer amount of words you've learnt!)


I would say...

A2~B1 in reading and listening, and
A0~A1 in speaking and writing.

The active skills are of course neglected, not surprising given the method I use. I don't mean the lack of instructions, but the entirely passive exercises with Anki.

The priority is reading and of course, the vocabulary. One of the reasons I'm not making as active use of the spoken Turkish media is that -- if I can't understand the same thing in the written form instantaneously, there's no way I'll understand it in the spoken form as the words pass by at natural speed. It's still good to try to listen and catch words here and there, to develop the feel for the rhythm and the sounds of the language, but listening exercises at anywhere below natural speech level is, in my humble opinion, pointless. If I work hard on A2 listening exercises, that's what I'll get good at -- listening to stuff specifically catered for A2 level.

The same goes for the neglect on the productive skills. If I want to hold a conversation, even if I were to speak at an intermediate level, I should understand the natural speech if there is to be a communication in the first place.

So this is my flow. Grammar should be dealt with immediately, not in baby steps but in its entirety, at least to recognize and understand, so that one can get onto reading and expand the vocabulary. Then I'll start listening more intensively once I know enough to process the language at the natural speech speed, and to fill in the gaps of unknown words from the context not to get completely lost. The production can wait. In a way, I approach this like laddering. Developing "all skills" simultaneously doesn't seem very efficient to me. I completely fail to see the point of speaking early if I cannot understand the answer that comes out of the native's mouth. A2 speaking/listening is only useful when the interlocutor is also A2, and by that point you might want to see if you have a better common denominator language.

I actually meant to explain this at the 2K milestone, but it's close enough and I might say this while I'm at it. Let's pretend this is the 3 month milestone. One of the reasons I am primarily using manga to mine sentences at this stage is to make the transition from the reading to the listening stage as smooth as possible. By their nature, it's almost entirely made of direct quotations and first-person monologues. And it's not entirely the familiar context either -- quite a lot of I've added to my deck came from the ones that I've read for the first time in Turkish.

After a while, I'll be interested in buying a few books in Turkish -- nothing of the great literature that the Turks will be proud of, but the shittiest and the cheesiest of the romance novels that one would be embarrassed to read in public. Something in the line of Twilight but an authentic Turkish equivalent of a shitty novel would be even better. This will need to wait until I can wield a bit more words though. This was also the rationale behind choosing Cosmopolitan a while ago. I don't expect them to write in a very polished and literary manner, I expect the language to be casual and colloquial.

(This was a lesson from my experience with German, I was reading a lot of German before heading to Austria, and while all those readings in academic and literary German were absolutely useful as I was studying in a university in German, they didn't help particularly when it comes to casual conversations.)

If I were to project further into the future, the endgame stage would be where I mine sentences directly as I watch Turkish TV... or a video in Turkish with a pause button. I think it's possible, just not in the near future.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2018-02-03, 7:33

2000 Kart

A little statistics. Sometimes it just feels good to look back. Tearing my hair apart with the translated lyrics feels like a distant memory now, though it's still pretty recent.

102 Days since the deck was created
Studied 99% -- 101 of 102 days.
Total 13076 reviews
Average 130.8 reviews / day

Total review time: 72 hours
Average daily review time: 43.3 minutes/day
Average answer time: 19.8s per card

Added total: 2000 cards
Added average: 19.4 cards/day

It's a bit hard to guesstimate, but since I spend usually 2~3 times more time to find sentences, make them into cards and write posts here than doing the reviews, I've spent about 220-280 hours of learning Turkish so far. That sort of comes down to 2~3 hours per day, which I think is a reasonable estimate.

Bu dünyayı yaratan, zihninizdir.

Card #2000. I was on Wikiquote again; the quote is from Buddha.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2018-02-05, 6:41

2059 Kart

Kültürle ilgileniyorum! Bu dili çok seviyorum! Ne kadar kolay ve boş sözler. Dürüst demek gerekirse, bu noktaya gelmiş ama henüz hiç bir ilgiyi geliştirmezdim. Ne kadar gülünç, değil mi? Önceden bir iki dili öğrenmek isteyen aylar ve yıllar geçtim ama yine başarsız kaldım. Ama şimdi, hiçbir ilgi olmamama rağmen Türkçe'yi hala vazgeçmiyorum.

Bence, tartışılmaz bir nedeni var. Dili öğrenirken ilgisizilk önemli bir şey değil. Önemli bir şey, ben şahsen, azımdır. Nedeni ne olursa olsun -- veya yoksa bile -- bu dili öğrenmeye karar verdim için, yaparım. Hepsi bu.

Artik yetti mi? Hayır, henüz değil.

------------------------------------------------------

I wanted to leave a specimen of my current level of Turkish. I'm not asking for correction this time; maybe I'll laugh at this and correct myself a couple more thousand cards later.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2018-02-07, 8:09

2111 Kart

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pYRpQC-wzo

This is a random video from a channel that I have recently subscribed. This is one of the many, many channels with Top 10s and useless trivia. However, I subscribed immediately because there's something special: it's in Turkish, and it has subtitles in Turkish.

This is particularly nice because native speakers usually don't put subtitles in the same language if it's intended for the other native speakers. Unless it's Chinese TV.

It depends on the topic, but my comprehension rate seems to fluctuate between 50-90%. And even when I don't understand a lot of it, the Top 10 structure means that the video won't stay on that topic for very long, the next topic might be more comprehensible. And since the videos are usually short, it's not too much effort to repeat it maybe once more to see if I understand better on the second try.

I've mined sentences from a couple of videos as well. When I type the sentences from what I didn't understand very much at first, I sometimes just end up not having to look up any word, as I have the time to understand what went through very quickly. It's a natural process; I think it's a good place to practice the reading speed.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2018-02-09, 22:58

2216 Kart

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCkJs_hxvzc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ru_PKU5dbE

And a semi-random selection of some of the recent cards. Real-world knowledge is something important. Everything's from Wikipedia.


Orkinos, Ton balığı olarak da bilinir, boyu 5-6 metre, ağırlığı 900 kilograma ulaşabilen göçmen balık türlerine verilen ad. Çok hızlı yüzerler. Kendinden küçük balıkları avlar. Eti konservecilikte kullanılır. Vücutları yuvarlak olup, ön kısmı büyük, arkaya doğru incelen bir yapıya sahiptir. İki dorsal yüzgeç arasında az bir mesafe vardır.

Tuna is a name given to the migratory fish reaching 5-6m in size and the 900kg in weight. They swim very fast. They hunt small fish themselves. The meat is used for conservatives. The body is round, it has the shape where the front part is large and getting thinner to the behind. There is a small gap between the two dorsal fins.

İyonik Bağ, bir ya da daha fazla elektronun bir atomdan ayrılıp başka bir atoma bağlanması süreci sonrasında positif ve negatif iyonların oluşması neticesinde oluşan bağdır. Sodyum ve Klor atomlarından oluşan NaCl'ü oluşturan bağ iyonik bağa tipik bir.

Ionic bond is a bond created as a result of an atom losing one or more electrons to bond to another atom and thus becoming positive and negative ions. Sodium and chloride atoms forming NaCl is a typical ionic bond.

Torpido, dümeni ve pervanesi bulunan suyun altından veya üstünden suya atılan, dümenini ve pervanesini kullanarak hedefine ilerleyen, patlayıcı bir sualtı silahıdır. Genel olarak denizaltılarda, savaş gemilerinde kullanılır.

A torpedo is an explosive underwater weapon with the helm and propellers, which proceeds to its target using the helm and the propellers either underwater or from the surface to the underwater. Generally they are used by submarines and warships.

Sofistler her şeyin merkezine insanı aldıklarından dolayı görecelilikten bahsederler. Bu nedenle insanların hepsinin üzerinde birleşeceği bir bilginin olamayacağını savunurlar. Sofistlerin en ünlülerinden biri Protagoras’tır. O’na göre 'İnsan her şeyin ölçüsüdür'. Diğer bir sofist de Gorgias’tır. O düşüncesini şu sözleriyle özetler "Gerçek yoktur, olsaydı bilinemezdi, bilinseydi bile başkasına bildirilemezdi."

Sophists discuss relativity as they place humans at the center of everything. Therefore, they defend that there cannot be a knowledge that humans can all agree upon. One of the most famous sophists was Protagoras. For him, "humanity is the measure of all." Another Sophist was Gorgias. He summarizes his thoughts with these words: "There is no truth, if there is it cannot be known, if it can be known it cannot be made known to another."

İçinde bulunduğumuz evrenin, doğanın henüz tamamını keşfedemediğimiz ilkeleri ve yasaları vardır. Aynı şekilde bilgiler arasında da bu tür bir ilişki vardır. Düşüncelerinde arasındaki ilişkiyi düzenleyen ilke ve yasalar vardır. Mantık düşünmenin temel yasalarını arar ve saptar. Mantık bilginin içeriğinin doğruluğu ile ilgilenmez, bilgiler arasındaki ilişkilerin doğruluğu ile ilgilenir.

There are principles and laws that we have not yet quite discovered in the nature, the universe that we are in. In the same way, such a relationship exists between knowledge as well. There are principles and laws that form relationships between ideas. Logic seeks and determines the basic laws of ideas. Logic does not care about the truth within the ideas, it cares about the truth in the relationship among the ideas.

Gerçeklik bilinçten bağımsız olarak nesnel dünyada bulunan varlıklardır. Yani nesnenin kendisidir. Genellikle doğruluk kavramı ile aynı anlamda kullanılmaktadır fakat felsefede bu iki kavram farklıdır. Doğruluk bilgiye ait bir özelliktir ve özneye bağımlıdır ama gerçeklik ancak nesnel dünyaya ait bir varlığın özelliği olabilir. Nesnel dünyada var olan ama bir insan tarafından algılanmamış bir şey yine de gerçektir.

Reality is an entity found in the objective world, independent from the consciousness. Thus it is an object in itself. Generally, it is used in the same meaning with the notion of truth, but these two are different notions in philosophy. Truth is a trait belonging to knowledge and is bound to the subject, but reality on the other hand is a trait of an entity that belongs to the objective world. A thing that exists in the objective world but cannot be perceived by a human is still real.

Deli dana hastalığı, ölümcül, 20. yüzyıldaki keşfiyle birlikte bulaşma mekanizması biyologları şaşırtan nörodejeneratif bir sığır hastalığıdır.

Mad cow disease is a fatal, neuro-degenerative cattle disease that surprised biologists with the mechanisms found with it in the 20th century.

Karbonmonoksit, bir karbon ve bir oksijen atomundan oluşan molekülün adı. Renksiz, kokusuz bir gazdır. Bazen görüldüğü gibi, sobalarda mavi bir alevle yanar. Çok kuvvetli bir zehirdir.

Carbon monoxide is a name of the molecule made of one carbon and one oxygen atom. It is colorless and odorless gas. As sometimes can be seen, it burns with the blue flame from the stoves. It is very powerful poison.

Standart lehçe (veya standartlaştırılmış lehçe veya "standart dil") kurumlar tarafından desteklenen bir lehçedir. Devlet tarafından tanınmak veya seçilmiş olmak, okullarda bir dilin "doğru" biçimi olarak sunulmak, "doğru" yazım ve telaffuzu belirten basılı dilbilgisi kitapları, sözlükler ve okul kitaplarının varlığı ve bu lehçeyi kullanan yaygın bir edebiyatın bulunması, standart lehçenin gördüğü desteğin örnekleri olarak sayılabilir.

Standard dialect, or standardized dialect or "standard language", is a dialect that is supported by institutions. The examples of the supports can make it seen as a standard dialect may include: being recognized or chosen by the state, being presented as the "right" form of the language in schools, grammar books clarifying "right" orthography and pronunciation, existence of dictionaries and school books, and the widespread literary use of the dialect.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2018-02-11, 14:43

Hi Karavinka, since you're reading wiki articles, I thought I'd also mention this resource here:
http://www.eba.gov.tr/ekitap

These are Turkish schoolbooks for all grades (1-12), directly from the Ministry of Education's website. In the "Bir kanal seçin" combobox you can select a subject. In grades 1-7, they don't have separate maths or physics or geography; rather, all natural sciences are lumped into 1 subject named "Fen Bilimleri", and all social sciences into "Sosyal Bilgiler".

(How are they better than wiki? Well, for one thing, they have funnier pics, and for another thing, you can see what kind of general knowledge an average Turk may have after school).
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2018-02-15, 5:30

2304 Kart

I've made some cosmetic changes to my Anki Turkish deck.

Image

I color-code languages on Anki, and although Turkish has its own deck and it doesn't share it with other languages, it still helps separating the languages -- or so is the purpose, I can't really say if it really helps. Why is Turkish green of all colors? I don't know, it was a color that was not taken by other languages at the time.

After making cosmetic changes for Gothic and Middle Korean, I was pleased with the result and wanted to make Turkish look less boring. After all, Anki reps can be quite grueling. It might as well look less boring. I wanted to keep the green theme, and as I was thinking how to make green texts look good, it came down to this Matrix aesthetics.

Code: Select all

.card {
 font-family: Open Sans;
 font-size: 18px;
 text-align: left;
 color: #8FD291;
 background-image: url("_matrix3.jpg");
}


So looks my styling field now. I'm mostly happy with the result, though I am a bit undecided if I want the font size to be 17 or 18. I took the background image from somewhere on the Internet, made it darker so the text stands out, and made the Turkish text color slightly more bright and less saturated to make it easy on the eyes. I might go Matrix on the four HAC languages as well.

The card count hasn't gone up as much over the last few days, because I was facing +170 reviews per day before adding new cards. The reps have calmed down a bit, so I can go back to adding now.

And while doing the review, I realized my deck has three different words to call this thing. (It is ORP Błyskawica for anyone curious.)

Image

1. destroyer
2. yokedici
3. muhrip

And I kind of feel like #2, while they are unedited as such in my deck, must be a kind of literal translationese, but I might be wrong. In any case, it's beautiful to see 1. European, 2. Turkic and 3. probably Arabic words got thrown at the same time. This is not a sarcasm; I really prefer when languages are not puristic. Similarly, the deck has both Külkedisi and Cinderella. The latter is a part of a proper name of an organization/event, and it is interesting to see what the translator decides - and decides not to - translate.

voron wrote:Hi Karavinka, since you're reading wiki articles, I thought I'd also mention this resource here:
http://www.eba.gov.tr/ekitap

These are Turkish schoolbooks for all grades (1-12), directly from the Ministry of Education's website. In the "Bir kanal seçin" combobox you can select a subject. In grades 1-7, they don't have separate maths or physics or geography; rather, all natural sciences are lumped into 1 subject named "Fen Bilimleri", and all social sciences into "Sosyal Bilgiler".

(How are they better than wiki? Well, for one thing, they have funnier pics, and for another thing, you can see what kind of general knowledge an average Turk may have after school).


Thank you! I was actually wondering if there were such resources online. I'm browsing through some of them, to see how I might utilize them.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2018-02-16, 15:43

2382 Kart

Vocabulary note: keşif

1. Recon: Japon keşif uçakları geri kalan Amerikan uçak gemilerini tespit etti.
2. Exploration: Gerçekten de başlangıçta, korkutucu keşif oyunuydu ve beni bütün o gizemi ve imalarıyla bayağı heyecanlandırdı.
3. Search: Ben bir yetenek ajansında çalışıyorum. İdol olmakla ilgilenir misiniz? -- Hayır. Anlıyorum. Yani keşif için buradaydınız.
4. Discover: Deli dana hastalığı, ölümcül, 20. yüzyıldaki keşfiyle birlikte bulaşma mekanizması biyologları şaşırtan nörodejeneratif bir sığır hastalığıdır.

Feels like the general sense of the word is to search for something, be it a specific target/object or something more abstract.


Vocabulary note: iz

İz bırakmadan kaybolmak istiyorum. I want to disappear without a trace.

So, this was the difference between bakmak and izlemek. The -le- infix was suggesting that this was built off a nominal root, but little did I suspect what the nominal root meant. But then, there was this.

4 Mayıs'ta Rabaul'den yola çıkan asıl Japon kuvvetlerini oluşturan deniz birliklerinin çoğu doğuya doğru dolambaçlı bir yol izledi.

Now it makes more sense. The verb izlemek is to trace/follow, with or without your eyes.

Beni tanımadan önce, pazar geceleri buraya gelir ve bir süre takılırdın. Her zaman seni pencereden izlerdim.

And if you're following someone's movement with your eyes, you're watching/observing the person.

Hey, gitme. Bekle. Birlikte bir DVD izleyelim, olur mu? Hem senden ödünç aldığım o filmi izlemek istiyordum.

Thus "watch." In comparison, bakmak feels like "look", even used as interjection similar to English.

Bak, sana portakal vereceğim.
Look, I'll give you (a piece of) orange.


Random sentences

A few recent ones. Some of them are whole cards by themselves, others are just a part of a card. While I didn't have to look up any word for the below, a lot of their semantic fields and pragmatic uses still need to be learned -- a sentence that I understand all words and all grammar can still contain new information about the language.

And in a way, dumping in otherwise "easy" to recognize sentences also helps with the pacing. If I were dumping 50 lines from Wikipedia every day, not only I'd get bored, but that will also shoot hapax legomena ratio of the deck. One thing the deck must never be is "hard," though sometimes it's kind of hard to control the rate of new information flowing into the deck.


İyi bir ruh halindesin. Güzel bir şeyler mi oldu?
You're in good mood. Did something good happen?
güzel vs iyi

Onlineken kendi adım gibi olmayan bir ad kullanmayı seviyorum.
I like using a name that's different from my own online.
not only onlineken, but sevmek here seems closer to "prefer."

Benim yerime başka birisiyle oyun oynamak, ha? İyi öyle olsun, seni düzenbaz!
So you were playng a game with someone else instead of me? Good for you, cheater!
as in, cheating in a relationship

Sadece çılgınca bir şeye tanık oldum.
I just witnessed something crazy.
deli vs çılgın. feels like çılgın is closer to "crazy", deli closer to "mad"

Geçmişimin onun için hiçbir derdi yok.
My past has nothing to do with him.
derdi vs soru/alakası

Üzgünüm, bir yere gitmeliyim. Hemen dönerim.
Sorry, gotta do something. I'll be back right away.

İstemiyorsan söylemek zorunda değilsin.
You don't have to say if you don't want to.

Klişelerini kendine saklayacaksındır umarım.
Keep your cliches to yourself.

Bunu hiç düşünmemiştim.
I haven't thought of it.

Hepimizin uyuşacağını mı düşünüyorsun?
You think we all fit in (here)?

Kaçınacak bir sebebim hiç olmamıştı.
There was no reason to reject, after all.

Bence oldukça normal.
Seems pretty normal to me.

Aa, özel bir sebebi yoktur bence, ama biraz kendini beğenmiş gibi.
Well, there's no particular reason, but he looks a bit cocky.

Sinir bozuculuk değildir, herhalde?
Isn't it annoying somehow?

Bu saçmalık da ne?
What is this bullshit?

--------------------

I talked a lot about context, but I don't think I've made it clear. An example taken from a Turkish subtitled anime series:

Benim için biraz pahalılar? O zaman belki buradakiler.. Gül mü alsam ki? Bunlar da çok güzel.
Maybe it's a bit expensive for me? Then maybe those here.. do I get a rose? These are really pretty as well.

The target word is pahalı "expensive." The first sentence alone is sufficiently self-contained, that could be a card on its own. The rest only helps clarifying what context this word is used: The speaker is at a flower shop, and can't decide what she wants to buy. The contextual info can help me conjure the scene. Doing so helps me remember the scene, and the more vivid the scene is, the easier it is to remember and recall.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2018-02-17, 6:27

2415 Kart


Şimdiden benden daha fazla eğlenmeye başladım.
----------
şimdiden 既に


Durum sıkıntılı. İlerisini hiç düşünmedim.
----------
Durum sıkıntılı 気まずい


Bugün epey sessiz.
----------
epey やけに

I wonder if using another L1 (if that makes sense) helps reinforcing the words. The three samples above all have the words defined in English elsewhere in the deck, maybe building more connections to the other words floating around in my brain helps.

Sometimes it kinda seems to work to triangulate the meaning better.


Ve böylesine utanç verici olanını?

Tureng gives utanç verici as "sinful, infamous, inglorious"... pretty heavy words. But the word that I heard (to which this is a subtitle) was 恥ずかしい, which doesn't imply much more than "embarrassing" and can be much more casual. Making notes in both, I can better judge the weight the word might carry. Or maybe I can't.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2018-02-18, 8:20

2490 Kart

Ne de olsa, yavaşça ilginçleşiyor.

I think I might want to accelerate the card accumulation. Screw Swedish, at least I'm keeping the daily streak. I even cut German and Spanish in favor of dedicating more time for Turkish.

I went over the cards that I've added today - 56 - and it seems like the number of new word per card is about 1. It's impressionistic, but while there are cards with no new vocabulary at all, there are those that contain several. But it's not important; for example, do I count the basic değişmek, causative değiştirmek and the negative adverbial değismeyen as different words or the same word? Anyways, one per card on average seems like an OK balance.


Herif

Bu herif senin ölçülerini alacak, biliyorsun değil mi?
Ciddi mi lan bu herif?

This used to be a hapax legomena for about a month, until I caught a second specimen. The word seems to convey a degree of disapproval. As always, I definitely need more samples, as I'm curious whether this can extend to inanimate and abstract. Japanese equivalent こいつ is primarily a person, but extends to "this damn thing"; French chose can extend to person and can be understandably offensive. Which way does Turkish go?


-Vn

Gerçek yoktur, olsaydı bilinemezdi, bilinseydi bile başkasına bildirilemezdi.
Şöyle bir düşününce... sadece ikimizin olduğu o loş odadayken kendim gibi hissettim.
Sanırım yenilince mızıtıyor.

A form of this passive appeared as early as mid-November, as en büyük bilinmeyen sizsiniz. I've noted this happening here and there, but I was too lazy to write about it. I do not want to go through this deck to hunt for an infix like this. Well, today's Anki review showed some cards with the form in the short interval, so I could take note of them. I'm actually only about 52% confident that düşününce is built the same way.

That said, the more interesting form is yenilince. Yenmek is to defeat, yenilmek is to be defeated, i.e. to lose. Google suggests there is no such form as **yenilinmek or **yenilinemez.

No, I don't want to think to much about grammar, let alone parsing. Forget it.


Pardon

Pardon, bana bir saniye verin.
Şimdi bir yerde olmam gerektiğini hatırladım. Pardon!

I don't know what to say. Hey, Turkish, we need to talk. Seriously, you borrowed this?


soğukkanlılıkla

Bunu öylesine soğukkanlılıkla söyledi ki.
Her türlü zorluğa göğüs gerip, soğukkanlılığımla bunu aşmak istiyorum.

Maybe I want to make a typology of Turkish adverbials.

1. -0. The root is the adverb. e.g. tekrar
2. -ki. dünkü
3. -la. soğukkanlılıkla
4. -ca. yavaşça
5. -bir halde, -bir şekilde, etc
6. -muş gibi. eriyormuş gibi
7. -en. değismeyen

Anything else I'm forgetting? Maybe, I'm just jotting down as they come to my mind. But one obvious question: why so many different ways? A better question: is there any point trying to think what an adverb even is in Turkish?

Argh, what am I doing at 3AM. Again, I don't want to think too much about grammar in this phase of the project. I'll pass this.
Last edited by Karavinka on 2018-02-20, 17:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2018-02-18, 16:35

Karavinka wrote:adverbial değismeyen

It's an adjectival, if you don't mind nitpicking.

Maybe I want to make a typology of Turkish adverbials.

Dünkü is an adjectival; on the other hand you apparently missed all those numerous purpose and condition adverbials formed with post-positions like yüzünden, sayesinde, nedeniyle, rağmen etc. I think I see your point though; I guess you're saying that what is an adverb in English is expressed in many different ways in Turkish.

But one obvious question: why so many different ways?

Yeah, good question. I wouldn't be able to clearly explain the semantic difference between, for example, hızlı, hızlıca, and hızlı bir şekilde. (I have guesses based on my Sprachgefühl but I'm not sure how correct they are).

I think I might want to accelerate the card accumulation

Even more? :shock: I'm envious. :mrgreen:
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2018-02-19, 6:08

2531 Kart

One of the reasons I'm finding this experiment fun is that I'm trying pretty much anything that comes to mind, or that came to my mind in the past but didn't try. There is a certain OCD-like desire to keep the deck neat and tidy, but by now the deck contents range from the holiest passages from the Qu'ran and down to the most vulgar penis and boob jokes. It's a total chaos. If the deck was smaller I would feel the urge to restart and make a neater and tidier one, but

Bırakmak neredeyse rahatlatıyordu.

I've been watching some anime episodes. I think L2 subtitles are quite underestimated when it comes to their Ankiability and general usefulness. The procedure is simple, you watch a video where you understand the spoken language, and it has the subtitle in the target language.

I pause the video immediately as the words show up. This is actually easier since I'm on laptop and I can use the touchpad, so I don't have to move my arm back and forth between the keyboard and the mouse like a madman. If the sentence has an unfamiliar word or expression, that's a no-brainer, but even if it is otherwise perfectly understandable, if it takes too long to understand, then it goes to the deck. How long is too long? I'd say 2 seconds of pause is too long. While the written words can wait for you, spoken words don't.

And once I have typed the sentence, I play, and making a quick comparison between what is said and what is written, sometimes I can even just skip looking up the dictionary, which always saves time. And sometimes, depending on the nature of the work, you may catch something strange.

Sanırım yenilince mızıtıyor.

Well, the line that appeared on yesterday's post as well. Google suggests mızıtmak is a real word because it is used, but Tureng gives no search result for this word, which makes me think this is a basilectal word. When this happens with manga or other written sources, this causes headache, it's hard to find a clear definition. But the spoken word helps: I can take yenilince mızıtıyor as equivalent of 負け惜しみ (salty), and move on. This helps with other (not necessarily basilectal) idiomatic expressions.

Eskiden dansa kaldırılmayan kız olduğumdan beri bu beni şuanki konumumu anlamaya itti.

It kinda makes sense on its own, but the spoken word comes to the rescue: it means 地味 (plain, as in not flashy). It doesn't really matter if the translations are really faithful or not, so long as it's passable in the context according to the native translator, it's fine. The more precise meanings can be triangulated once I see them for the second or third time. This happens often with the older cards; I will have forgotten a word completely, and look it up again, only to find the word existed in the deck all along, and that's when the word really sticks.

One example is tavsiye "advice/recommendation" -- I couldn't remember it for whatever reason, it was a hapax and forgotten. I came across the word after some two-month interval since its first appearance, and I had to look it up twice because I couldn't remember it. But when I saw the old card from November that had the word, well, if I'm writing this it means I can even recall it now.


-----------------------

Correction time:

Gerçek yoktur, olsaydı bilinemezdi, bilinseydi bile başkasına bildirilemezdi.
Şöyle bir düşününce... sadece ikimizin olduğu o loş odadayken kendim gibi hissettim.
Sanırım yenilince mızıtıyor.


Bilinmek does mean to be known, but the other two are just the usual -(y)ince forms, which I usually recognize as such. I must have been tired, it was written in 3AM.

------------------------

voron wrote:Dünkü is an adjectival; on the other hand you apparently missed all those numerous purpose and condition adverbials formed with post-positions like yüzünden, sayesinde, nedeniyle, rağmen etc. I think I see your point though; I guess you're saying that what is an adverb in English is expressed in many different ways in Turkish.


Maybe that was what I was thinking. And about değismeyen-- I had that form in the deck yesterday but I don't have it anymore. I usually trim out 0~5 cards per day, I think it's gone.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2018-02-19, 7:57

2587 Kart

Two things I forgot to make notes. I might as well do now before I forget again.

Ben sahte bir ilişkisi olan iki insanın randevusuna müdahele etmediğimi varsayıyorum.

This is not the first time I've seen something like this. I've checked the spelling as found on the source again, and it is spelled such. The correct form is of course müdahale. Regarding the "sloppy" spelling, let's just make a hypothesis that there is a trending of vowels assimilating to the ultimate vowel.


Ben bütün paramı cosplaye harcıyorum, yani ben bunu yapamam.

This is from an older card, but well. Most French loanwords are adapted to the Turkish spelling, but newer loanwords like these may not be. For the purpose of vowel harmony, what is important is the sound, not the spelling, and the vowel harmony with -e suggests that this would be pronounced like /kospley-e/. This was something I was wondering since quite a while ago:

...akranları Müttefik uçakgemileri Coral Denizi ve Santa Cruz çarpışmalarında...

Other than that there is a proper Turkish Mercan Deniz, should I read this like /koral/ or /djoral/? If I'm to assume cosplay is /kosple(y)/, then I guess it's also /koral/? But for this, I assume there must be individual variations.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2018-02-20, 5:51

2631 Kart

I want to try something I haven't really done on UL. That is, practice. I don't know why, but I just felt like it. Or more like, I had an idea that I felt like I could express in Turkish with my known vocabulary. Please feel free to correct as you see fit. I wouldn't mind even if someone feels this is too bad and rewrites 80% of it. If I am fortunate enough to get corrections, they will enter the deck.

There was a time I actually helped an English learner this way. She would write her journal in English, I would provide corrections, which she added to SRS. It didn't last very long, and the amount of sentences were simply not extensive enough, but I kind of want to see how that would work for me.


Yemek

Herkes yemek zonunda kalmış. Organik yaşam olarak, bu tartışmaz bir gerçektir. Doğru, ben de hariç değilim. Ama yemek yemeğin zamanda, bunun zamanını kaybetmiş gibi hissediyorum. Kısaca diyorsam, yemekten hoşlanmıyorum.

Her gün benim için aynı bir sorunum var. Bu bir "soru" değil, ama "sorun." Neyi yemek, veya ne zaman yemek? Şimdi mi yemek gerekiyorum, ya da henüz değil ve daha sonra da iyi mi? Bu konuda para bir sorun değil. Ben basitçe bir şeyi yemek istiyorum diye hissetmiyorum, hepsi bu.

Tabii ki, ben de açlığı hissediyorum, ama orada arzum yok. Bu bana ödev gibi geliyor, şarj yapmış gibi. Ben de nedeni bilmek istiyorum.


Yağmur

Bir hafta boyunca oldukça sıcaktı. Bir, iki derece santigrat gibi. Belki bunu "sıcak" diyorsam garip olduğunu düşünüyorsunuz, ama bura Kanada'dır. En azından Şubat'ın ortasından bunu "sıcak" demek okdukça normal. Ama dünkü birden yağmur yağmaya başladı. Kar değil, yağmurdur. Ve bu yağmur, kardan daha bile kötü bir şey olabilir. Neden? Yağmur sokağı ıslatacak, değil mi? Ve hava tekrar dondurucu olacak. Doğru ya, bu çok tehlikeli. Herkes bundan nefret ediyor.

Kendime iyi bir soru var. Benim hayatım hakkında bir sorudur. Nasıl desem ki... Lanet olsun, neden burada yaşıyorum? Neden Kanada'ya dönedim ben ki?
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