Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

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Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-10-26, 9:55

This is a log of my feeble attempt at Turkish.

#1: 1,000 Cards Reached (2017/12/21)
#2: 3 Months (2018/01/30)
#3: 4,000 Cards Reached/Phase 3 (2018/03/31)
#4: Change of pace, Phase 3.5

A little disclaimer here. An interest in Turkey and the Turkish culture is something I need to develop from now on. I chose Turkish purely under these criteria:

- The language must have a sizable media production, and the media is accessible to me over the Internet.
- The language should be alien enough to me; I haven't learned it, and I haven't learned a related language

This is a little experiment. Can I learn the language from scratch, with no explicit instruction? The choice narrowed down to Turkish, Tamil and Vietnamese; I chose Turkish. I probably know about 20 words in the language, and all that I know is that it's an agglutinating language superficially similar to Korean or Japanese, structure-wise.

The only materials I allow myself will be:

- Online dictionaries
- Google Translate
- Bilingual texts whenever available (i.e. the Turkish is a translation of something)

The primary tool will be Anki. Today marks the Day 2, and I have 22 cards. The goal that I have set up is currently 1000, and I want to see where I will be at that point. The cards look like this:

----------

Dışarıda çok güzel bir gün
Kuşlar şarkı söylüyor, çiçekler açıyor
Böyle günlerde senin gibi çocuklar...
Chennem'de yanmalı

Ben dünyanın bir numaralı prensesiyim
Beni memnun etmek için ne yapman gerektiğini bilmelisin

İçten bir aşk, bu bir günah!
Göstereceğim sana, neler hissettiğimi!

etc. Random samples taken here and there on the front, and the back lists the vocabulary. That is, almost all the words for now. Currently, the sentences are deliberately mined from the sources that I can quote the original from memory, because I need to peg the Turkish words to familiar contexts not to get completely lost. If I remember 30% of the vocabulary, I can recall what it should say and make sense of Turkish again.

The following are the notes I have made over the language. Please do understand that this is more of an experiment log. I may make mistake. I may completely fail to understand a concept. Please do NOT provide corrections unless I explicitly ask. I want to see if I make sense out of what I failed to understand before; if I wanted an answer right now, I could just grab a book and look it up.

And just because I'm using Turkish as an "experiment" object, please don't think of it as a disrespect. :) If you are a native or advanced speaker of the language, sit back and laugh at me. :)

--------
Commonly seen verb elements. The verbs begin with a stem and get affixed a la Japanese. The last element seems to be pronominal, -m/-n/-nil for sg. I haven't come across much plural to determine.

-yor: present ADDRESSED
1sg. bencilce davranmıyorum I'm not acting selfishly
2sg. Sen benim kim olduğumu zannediyorsun? Who do you think I am?
3sg. Günışığı gösteriyor gölgeleri Daylight shows shadows
3pl. Kuşlar şarkı söylüyor, çiçekler açıyor Birds are singing songs, flowers are blooming

-mi-: negative ADDRESSED
2sg: Cidden hiç anlayorsun, hem de hiç! : You don't understand, not at all!

Already a major departure: the affix order is different from KO/JP. Good news, it's not going to be boring. Bad news, it's going to be a bit of headache when I try to form sentences.

-ce-: future, intent? ADDRESSED
1sg. Sana karalılığımın ne olduğunu gösterıcem I'll show you what my darkness? is made of
1sg. Artık gidebileceğim bir yer yok Now there's nowhere I can go
1sg. öyle bile olsa seni hala sevecek miyim? Even then, will I still love you?

-bil-: potential ADDRESSED

1sg. Başarabilirim! I can do it!
1sg. Artık gidebileceğim bir yer yok Now there's nowhere I can go
1sg. 1sg. Biliyorum, ama ne yapmalıyım? Ne yapabilirim? I understand, but what should I do? What can I do?

-li: should ADDRESSED
1sg. Benim hatam mı? Sevimli bir hata diyelim. Is it my fault? I should say it's a cute fault.
1sg. Biliyorum, ama ne yapmayım? Ne yapabilirim? I understand, but what should I do? What can I do?
2sg. Ölmeya hazırlanmasın You should prepare to die
3sg. Chennem'de yanma Should be burning in hell

-ğı-: nominalizer? ADDRESSED : The morpheme is probably -ik
Birincisi, saçımı yaptırdığımda bunu farketmelisin First, when I make a hairdo, you should notice it
yaptır-dı-ğım-da in my making
Last edited by Karavinka on 2018-05-15, 7:46, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: Karavinka: Türkçe

Postby voron » 2017-10-26, 12:49

With Turkish being almost completely regular, and its syntax being close to Japanese and Korean, I am sure you will solve it in no time. Have fun!

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Re: Karavinka: Türkçe

Postby eskandar » 2017-10-26, 22:50

Very cool project and a great language to try it with. Good luck!
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: Karavinka: Türkçe

Postby Karavinka » 2017-10-27, 1:30

Day 3
Cards count: 36.

Starting to notice a few recurring words. Other than the pronouns like ben, sen, o.. or demonstratives, a small list that I didn't have to look up today:

aşk: love
gibi: like
yapmek: do
bura: here
için: for
artık: now, already
vakti, zaman: time
sevmek: love, like
tatlı: sweet, sweets
istemek: want
bilmek: know
insan: person, human
göstermek: show

-ma(1) : negative ADDRESSED
Aşkımı trajedideki Juliet'inki gibi yapma Don't make my love like Juliet in the tragedy
Acı şeyleri şimdilik daha sevmiyorum For now, I still don't like bitter things

Probably the same morpheme as -me- in bilmediğim bir şeyler, just subject to vowel harmony. This can appear in negative imperative with root+mi, and is apparently the first affix after the root.

-ma(2) : appears to be a sort of nominalizer ADDRESSED
yetişkinler için artık uyuma vaktı For adults, now is time to sleep
Beni ısırmadan, nazik ol Be nice, before biting me

If it can be followed by -dan, it's at least not a verb. I think.

Bilmediğim bir şeyler varsa If there are things that I don't know
Birincisi, saçımı yaptırdığımda bunu farketmelisin
İkincisi, yeni bir çift ayakkabı giydiğimde bunu farketmen gerek, tamam mı?

I guess bıl-me-dı-ği-m and yaptır-dı-ğı-m-da function as some kind of nominal, not sure exactly what. It can take verbal infixes like -me- and -di-, and case endings like -da. The first example looks like bilmediğim is functioning like an adjective to bir şeyler.

While I'm not completely sure about parsing, the -m at the end must be personal pronominal.

Sen benim kim olduğumu zannediyorsun?
Sadece gerçekten çok güzel olduğunu düşünmeni istiyorum

With olmak, both of the above make sense with Japanese -de aru to...

-sa : If ... ADDRESSED
Sıradan insanlara ilgim yok. Aranızda uzaylı, zaman-gezgini, esper varsa.. görüşelim. Bu kadar!
Bilmediğim bir şeyler varsa > varsa: "if there is/are" (from varmak). Both examples are 3pl, I'm thinking the 3rd person is unmarked both in singular and plural.

Dünya bulanıklaşıyor, öyle bile olsa seni hala sevecek miyim?
Sürekli, annemin yaptığı tatlıları yediğimden olsa gerek > olsa: "if it is" (from olmak)

Hepsini göster, senin içinse göstereceğim *****i
senin içinse "if it's for you"
-sa/-se is 1) subject to vowel harmony (duh) and 2) not a verbal ending.

----------------
At the same time, I'm also watching random videos in Turkish on YouTube, mostly LPs as I want to get a general feel for the rhythm of the spoken language, as spoken by ordinary individuals (as opposed to reading scripted texts). Not as much as to call anything near 'immersion' though.

----------------
voron wrote:With Turkish being almost completely regular, and its syntax being close to Japanese and Korean, I am sure you will solve it in no time. Have fun!


eskandar wrote:Very cool project and a great language to try it with. Good luck!

Thank you! <- still don't know how to say this
Last edited by Karavinka on 2017-11-09, 6:18, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Karavinka: Türkçe

Postby Karavinka » 2017-10-30, 8:16

Not bothering to count days anymore. I'm not good at such things.

62 Cards.

Today marks the first card that is not a translation of something else. It is mined from YouTube's comment section. The 62nd card:

----
yeni çevirmen hoşgeldin
sonunda beklediğim şarkı
çok güzel olmuş

I scrolled down a bit after playing a song with Turkish subtitles, and a comment just stood out as that I almost understood the gist of it. Looking up three more words - çevirmen, beklemek and olmuş (<olmak), it was in.


And from now on, I may throw in Japanese alongside Turkish on the notes as 1. the originals are often Japanese 2. thus I often convert Turkish mentally to Japanese and 3. so naturally some cards include notes in Japanese. The status of my Anki cards can look like this:

Eminim ki o kız da öyleydi
ayakkabısını kazara düşürmesi hep yalandı

emin 安全・信頼できる > eminim ki きっと
o kız da öyleydi あの子もそうだった
ayakkabı : shoes
kazara : by chance
düşürmek : fall, drop
yalan atmak > to lie. hep yalandı "lied all along"

----

maz ADDRESSED

Not much concrete in terms of the grammar now, puzzling over -maz as found in:

Hayır, hayır olmaz.
No, no you don't.
だめだめよ

öyle olmazsa hiçbir eğlencesi yok
If it isn't so, there's no fun at all
そうじゃないと楽しくないわ

The root is ol, as in olmak. Wondering the difference between this and -ma-.

nil ADDRESSED

And a single card narrowed down the passive -nil- for me:

Yalanı fazla kaçıran Külkedisi
kurt tarafından yenilmiş
ne yapmalıyım, bu şekilde ben de
bir gün yenileceğim

As the verb is yemek "eat", and both verbs are translations of 食べられる. I'm tentatively putting -eceğim as a 1sg future as I've come across this a few other times. -miş is suspicious as:

kurt tarafından yenilmiş 狼に食べられたらしい
mutluluk küçük kutunun içindeymiş 幸せは小さな箱にあるらしい

The two cards I have are translations of -rashii, which expresses a hearsay. It's going to be fun if this actually is a sort of evidentiality. Waiting for more cards to confirm or discard, but tentatively I'll accept it as an expression of hearsay.

I should start paying close attention to the nouns too, but verbs first.
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Re: Karavinka: Türkçe

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-03, 11:03

91 Cards.

The pace is a bit slow, as there's only so much I can remember at once. I find myself intentionally tapping 'Hard' on Anki even when I supposedly understood the sentence. Fine, it's a part of the process. But fortunately, words are starting to get repeated more often, and I'm seeing a few words that I feel confident I'd be able to recognize, even if it's not in the familiar context. A small list of the words I didn't look up today:

sınır : border, boundary
gün : day, bugün : today
kişi : person
birlikte : together
şarkı : song
hazır : ready
o yüzden : so, therefore
gece : night
dünya : world
mutlu : happy
bıraz : let
ne kadar : (regardless, no matter) how much
herkes : someone, anyone, everyone
son : last, end
her şey : everything
her zaman : always
ne zaman : when, whenever
daha : more, more than
lütfen : please
hata : mistake, fault
konuşmak : talk, speak

In a way, I'm content that I 'm not starting with a dead, soulless list of nationalities, fruits and colors. In another way, I'm not sure what to make of similar words like etmek and yapmak, or vakit and zaman. The meaning of the word sakın is still somewhat mystifying, although it's usually a part of the negative command. The -lik that appears in words like şimdilik (now) as opposed to şimdi (now) is still puzzling. Well, I'll get it eventually.

1. Miş ADDRESSED

Karavinka wrote:
kurt tarafından yenilmiş 狼に食べられたらしい
mutluluk küçük kutunun içindeymiş 幸せは小さな箱にあるらしい

The two cards I have are translations of -rashii, which expresses a hearsay. It's going to be fun if this actually is a sort of evidentiality. Waiting for more cards to confirm or discard, but tentatively I'll accept it as an expression of hearsay.

I should start paying close attention to the nouns too, but verbs first.


This was a very hasty conclusion: miş and its vowel harmony variations seem to have either very general, or multiple specific meanings. I hope it's the former.

Bütün dünya cehennem karanlığına bürünmüş The whole world is covered in the darkness of hell
Yaptığın seçimi beğenmişsindir umarım. I hope you like the choices you made.
en iyi malzemelerle yapılmış bir puding a pudding made with the best ingredients
kurt tarafından yenilmiş (She) was eaten by a wolf
mutluluk küçük kutunun içindeymiş Happiness is in the small box

Out of the five sentences I've pulled out, if I am forced to draw a tentative conclusion here, is that they seem to be in the realm of subjunctive i.e. not necessarily true, in the real world of indicative.

2. Cek CONCLUDED

I think the future/intention can be narrowed down to -cek-.

Sen şarkı söyleyeceksin, ben dans edeceğim You will sing, I will dance
Hepsini göster, senin içinse göstereceğim *****i Show me all of you, for you I'll show all my *****

What seems to happen is that -cek + 1sg pronominal im create ceğim. That is, -VkV- becoems -VğV. This seems to be not only with the verbs, but a general phenomenon in Turkish.

Büyük kutudan ziyade mutluluk küçük kutunun içindeymiş
The happiness is in the small box, rather than in the big box
Meditasyon kapısından geçmek, ve arınıp mutluluğa ulaşmak için
Crossing the Gate of Meditation, and to attain pure happiness

The word for "happiness" is mutluluk, but with the accusative particle -V, -k softens and becomes mutluluğa.

Ah.. Dünya bulanıklaşıyor, öyle bile olsa seni hala sevecek miyim? The world is getting covered in clouds, but even then, will I still love you?

The -k is preserved because it's at the end of the word, and I expected the form seveceğim with -im instead of the question -miyim. And Google Translate actually recognized seveceğim and translated it as "I will love"!

3. Ce ADDRESSED

I suspect this turns a noun or an adjective into adverb.

sade (only) -> sadece (just)
bencil (selfish) -> bencilce (selfishly)
türk (Turk) -> türkçe (Turkish)?
ön (front, before) -> önce (before)

So, türkçe may actually be "in the manner of the Turks"; I'm open to this possibility of using adverbs for speaking a language; Latin does with latine loqui as well.

4. Ben ve Sen ADDRESSED

ben (nom.)
beni (acc.)
bana (dat.)
benim (poss.)
benimle (with me)
..etc

sen
seni
sana
senin
seninle
..etc

Benim and senin are of interest, as the -(i)m and -(i)n seem to be attached to pretty much anything, and just -V for the third person o. The case endings seem to be shared between the personal pronouns and other nouns as well, which is a good news.

Sesimi : ses-im-i "my voice (acc.)"

This can be stringed after other affixes, but apparently Turkish doesn't allow -V/V

dünyadaki : dunya-da-(k)-i  世界中の
uzaktaki : uzak-da-(k)-i 遠くの

All the more since this seems to be an exception of -k- softening to -ğ- between vowels. That is, if my parsing here is correct. I'm not quite sure of this yet.

Some compounding seems to happen this way:

günışığı (sunlight) : gün (day, sun) + ışık (light)

Interestingly, not only gün , but also ışık takes -ı. It's my second time encountering a language where a possessed word also must be marked in such a way; the first was Ainu. That said, some seem to want an extra -n:

küçük kutunun için inside a small box

*kutu-(n)u-n. I understand the first n if Turkish doesn't want to say **kutuu, but what's up with the second n?
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Re: Karavinka: Türkçe

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-03, 11:52

And let me have a little conversation with my past self...

yor ADDRESSED
Karavinka wrote:Commonly seen verb elements. The verbs begin with a stem and get affixed a la Japanese. The last element seems to be pronominal, -m/-n/-nil for sg. I haven't come across much plural to determine.

-yor: present
1sg. bencilce davranmıyorum I'm not acting selfishly
2sg. Sen benim kim olduğumu zannediyorsun? Who do you think I am?
3sg. Günışığı gösteriyor gölgeleri Daylight shows shadows
3pl. Kuşlar şarkı söylüyor, çiçekler açıyor Birds are singing songs, flowers are blooming


I still think so. Although I think present imperfect would be a better term, corresponding to Japanese -している.

mi CONCLUDED
-mi-: negative
2sg: Cidden hiç anlayorsun, hem de hiç! : You don't understand, not at all!

Already a major departure: the affix order is different from KO/JP. Good news, it's not going to be boring. Bad news, it's going to be a bit of headache when I try to form sentences.


I'll give myself a little compliment here. -mi- and its vowel harmony variants seem to be consistently marking negative.

cek CONCLUDED
-ce-: future, intent?
1sg. Sana karalılığımın ne olduğunu gösterıcem I'll show you what my darkness? is made of
1sg. Artık gidebileceğim bir yer yok Now there's nowhere I can go
1sg. öyle bile olsa seni hala sevecek miyim? Even then, will I still love you?


1sg. Sana karalılığımın ne olduğunu gösterıcem I'll show you what my darkness? is made of
1sg. Artık gidebileceğim bir yer yok Now there's nowhere I can go
1sg. öyle bile olsa seni hala sevecek miyim? Even then, will I still love you?

A little correction, the morpheme seems to be -cek as in the last post. Though, what is this gösterıcem? Is this a shortened form of göstereceğım? ADDRESSED

And of course, as with everything, vowel harmony.

Son saatlerin olucak It'll be the last of your hours.

bil CONCLUDED
-bil-: potential

1sg. Başarabilirim! I can do it!
1sg. Artık gidebileceğim bir yer yok Now there's nowhere I can go
1sg. 1sg. Biliyorum, ama ne yapmalıyım? Ne yapabilirim? I understand, but what should I do? What can I do?


Bazen hata yapabiliyorum. Sometimes I can make mistakes.
Yarın o şarkıyı söyleyebilmek için heyecanlanıyorum.I'm excited to be able to sing the song tomorrow
Daha çok yiyebilirim I can still eat more!
Bu sınırı aşarsak nereye kadar gidebiliriz? Crossing this border, how far can we go?

Seems right. This seems to crash into even infinitive like in söyleyebilmek. Though, what is -iri- at the end of yiyebilirim and gidebiliriz? I get the final -m and -z are personal pronominal endings.

li CONCLUDED
-li: should
1sg. Benim hatam mı? Sevimli bir hata diyelim. Is it my fault? I should say it's a cute fault.
1sg. Biliyorum, ama ne yapmayım? Ne yapabilirim? I understand, but what should I do? What can I do?
2sg. Ölmeya hazırlanmasın You should prepare to die
3sg. Chennem'de yanma Should be burning in hell


Hadi gecenin kapısını birlikte açam So, we shall open the night's door together
Hadi tüm gücümüzle yola çıkam Let's hit the road with our full strength
Birlikte varlığımızın amacını arayam Let's find our raison d'etre together
Kapanıs mutlu bir final olmadır, seyircinin alkışarı eşliğinde The finale must be a happy ending, amidst the appauds of the audiences
Istiyorum hepsini ama kendimi tutmayım! I want it all, but I need to hold myself!

Mostly right, and in the 1st plural, this also seems to have a cohortative function as in the first three with -lım. This contrasts to the last one -lıyım, which is singular and only refers to the speaker.

ik? ADDRESSED
-ğı-: nominalizer?
Birincisi, saçımı yaptırdığımda bunu farketmelisin First, when I make a hairdo, you should notice it
yaptır-dı-ğım-da in my making


This guy must have been really unsure. And I still have NO IDEA. I'm more tempted to parse it as yaptır-dık-ım-da at the moment. Though -ığı would be the form I actually see more often, because ... well, reasons. Genitive?

Sürekli annemin yaptığı tatlıları yediğimden olsa gerek Must be because I've eaten sweets my mom made all the time >> *yapt-ik-i?
Birlikte varlığımızın amacını arayalım Let's find our raison d'etre together >> *var-li-ik-miz-in?
Göstereceğim sana, neler hissettiğimi! I'll show you what my feelings are! >> *hisset-ik-i-mi?

I think I wasn't completely off with nominalizing part though. If a word like alacakaranlık "twilight" is formed in the same way, that is. There are still more question marks than periods with this one.

ma ADDRESSED
Karavinka wrote:-ma(2) : appears to be a sort of nominalizer
yetişkinler için artık uyuma vaktı For adults, now is time to sleep
Beni ısırmadan, nazik ol Be nice, before biting me

If it can be followed by -dan, it's at least not a verb. I think.


NO IDEA

sa CONCLUDED
-sa : If ...
Sıradan insanlara ilgim yok. Aranızda uzaylı, zaman-gezgini, esper varsa.. görüşelim. Bu kadar!
Bilmediğim bir şeyler varsa > varsa: "if there is/are" (from varmak). Both examples are 3pl, I'm thinking the 3rd person is unmarked both in singular and plural.

Dünya bulanıklaşıyor, öyle bile olsa seni hala sevecek miyim?
Sürekli, annemin yaptığı tatlıları yediğimden olsa gerek > olsa: "if it is" (from olmak)

Hepsini göster, senin içinse göstereceğim *****i
senin içinse "if it's for you"
-sa/-se is 1) subject to vowel harmony (duh) and 2) not a verbal ending.


Sesimi duymak istersen When you want to hear my voice
Sana yaklaşan kız ne kadar yetenekli ya da zeki olsa da Even if there's a talented and smart girl who approaches you

Seems about right. If istersen is parsed *ister-se-n with the 2nd person -n at the end, then this is an ending that can take pronominal endings as well. It's not surprising that it's used with things other than verbs, as in senin içinse; it's analogous to ーなら.


Further morphemes that I need to take a closer look:

-dir
-ip
-an
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Re: Karavinka: Türkçe

Postby Luís » 2017-11-03, 15:05

I'm actually enjoying reading this.

It's like a mystery novel, but with morphemes. :lol:
Quot linguas calles, tot homines vales

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Re: Karavinka: Türkçe

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-03, 17:21

Luís wrote:I'm actually enjoying reading this.

It's like a mystery novel, but with morphemes. :lol:


Thanks, but be careful... the thread is going to contain spoilers! :lol: Maybe that's what I should name this thread - Spoiler Alert: Turkish
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Spoiler Alert: Turkish | -30 Thai | Sink or Zapotec

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Karavinka
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-06, 18:10

126 Cards

Not much preamble today, let's get to the point... Still on the kill list:

-dir
-ip
-an
-ken
-di

-(i)m vs -iyim ADDRESSED

Ben dünyanın bir numaralı prensesiyim I'm the number one princess in the world
Anladıysan eğer, diz çök ve beni prensesim diye çağır If you got it, kneel down and call me 'my princess'

I've overlooked the spelling difference all along. Shame and slap on me. The first prenses+iyim is "I am princess", whereas prensesim is "my princess"; but it's not always -iyim with "I am";

Fantastik hissediyorum ve hala hayattayım.I feel fantastic and I'm still alive
Ne kadar aptalım, ben... What an idiot I am...

The second sentence is a problem. The base is aptal (idiot), but the form isn't **aptalyım or **aptalıyım. Hmm, I wonder why. Maybe this is to be understood as "my idiocy" rather than "I am an idiot"? Or is this analogous to Japanese "私のバカ" instead of "私はバカ", using the possessive but still expressing the same meaning? I think it's about time I need to sort out the possessive suffixes.

Possessive Suffixes ADDRESSED

1. -Vm
Eteğimi sallayıp hava atarak Waving my skirt in the air. *etek-im-i
Başka şansım yok! There is no other choice (of mine) *şans-ım

2. -Vn
Evet, senin öpücüğünle uyanacağım. Yes, I'll wake up with your kiss. *öpücük-ün-le
Senin görüş alanına girmeyi başaramazdım.I couldn't succeed getting into your field of vision *alan-ın-a

3. -V(n)?
Bilimin sınırlarının ötesinden geldim buraya I came here from beyond the borders of science *bilim-in
Bu deftere adı yazılan insan, ölür.Human whose name is written on this note, will die *ad-ı

The first person is fine, but the second and third person... are they really identical? Then what's up with adı? sınırlarının is another curve; sınır-lar-ın-ın.

I feel like there's some phonological rule underneath. sınırlarının can't be repeating the same two morphemes just because it's plural; the second ı in *sınırların-ı-n must be accusative. The question is the last -n; which echoes a question left in a previous post as well.

Karavinka wrote:That said, some seem to want an extra -n:

küçük kutunun için inside a small box

*kutu-(n)u-n. I understand the first n if Turkish doesn't want to say **kutuu, but what's up with the second n?

My best guess at the moment is that this is done to prevent two vowels succeeding one another. kutunu-n-için and sınırlarını-n-ötesinden. If that's the case, only the first ı in sınırlarını is the 3rd person possessive, and with the fillers marked with brackets, will parse as sınır-lar-ı-(n)-ı-(n), and kutunun as kutu-(n)-u-(n).

etmek CONCLUDED

Mücadele et! Tam kalbine ateş et! Struggle! Shoot right at the heart!
Ah, acaba acele edip beni bilgisayarına yükler misin Well, maybe will you hurry and insert me to the computer?
Fantastik hissediyorum ve hala hayattayım. I feel fantasitc and I'm still alive.
Acaba neden beni seçtiler merak ediyorum. Maye I'm curious why I was chosen.
Sanırım içeride kalmayı tercih ederim… I think I prefer staying inside

Basically, it seems equivalent to ja. suru and ko. hada. Makes a verb out of what is not a verb. edip is just the -ip form of etmek (later), and I have a feeling that hissetmek is just his etmek, except that maybe the form is too frequently used and got merged as one word.

But does this happen with yapmak as well? At least I seem to notice elimden geleni yapmak often translating jp. ganbaru.

n ADDRESSED

O yüzden biraz da olsa hazırlansan iyi edersin! So, it'd be good if you prepare yourself a little!

This is cheating. A dictionary simply gave hazırlanmak as reflexive of hazırlamak. I first thought if -lan- as a whole is one morpheme, but not only I was wrong, but I got spoiled here. Though that also leads to another question: if the form is to be broken into hazır-la-n-sa-n, what is la? ADDRESSED

t CONCLUDED

O yüzden, lütfen, bana daha çok şarkı söylet. So, please, let me sing more.
Sakın unutma, tamam mı? Beni bekletemezsin! Don't forget, OK? Don't make me wait!

I think I'm pretty confident with söylemek (say) > söyletmek (let/make say), and baklemek (wait) > bakletmek (let/make wait).

And another little piece of derivational morphology: ADDRESSED

Ve betadan çıktık. Tam zamanında çıkarıyoruz! We're out of beta. And we're releasing on time!
Bir gün, iki ırk arasında bir savaş çıkageldi.One day, a war broke out between the two races

çıkmak is to go outside/exit, and çıkarmak is to publish, release. çıkarmak also has additional meanings, that seems a bit mystifying, but interesting to note nonetheless.

çıkagelmek is probably a combination of çıkmak and gelmek, but just noting here.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-09, 4:03

143 Cards

It's been two weeks. I think I'm having fun, although it's one train wreck after another. And I never got to talk about things like locative -da and ablative -dan, or the past/preterite/perfect -di because they somehow just made sense somewhere along the line. Well, let's talk back to myself a little.

-Vn ADDRESSED
Karavinka wrote:The first person is fine, but the second and third person... are they really identical? Then what's up with adı? sınırlarının is another curve; sınır-lar-ın-ın.

I feel like there's some phonological rule underneath. sınırlarının can't be repeating the same two morphemes just because it's plural; the second ı in *sınırların-ı-n must be accusative. The question is the last -n; which echoes a question left in a previous post as well.


Bilimin sınırlarının ötesinden geldim buraya I came here from beyond the borders of science

I don't think this was completely off, but I did overlook bilimin. The word is not followed by another that begins with a vowel, so why not just **bilimi? Similarly:

1. Bir iki, dünyanın tam köşesinde One, two, right at the corner of the world
2. Pop müziğin duygularından şarkı yapalım mı? Shall we make a song with the emotions of pop music?
3. Sana okulda asla öğrenemeyeceğin bir şey öğreteceğim. I'll teach you something they never teach at school

Here, dünyanın and müziğin are the possessors of köşe and duygular. With #3, whether öğrenemeyeceğin is also possessive is a bit muzzy as the word is some kind of verbal, but if öğrenemeyecek is broken down into öğrenmek-e-cek, that'd be a new use of cek.

The ones without -n.

4. Eminim insanların gözleri kamaşıcak. Surely, people's eyes will dazzle
5. Bu deftere adı yazılan insan, ölür.The human whose name is written is on this notebook, will die
6. Hadi gecenin kapısını birlikte açalım. Let's open the door of the night together

With all these examples -- particularly adı that raised the question in the previous post -- it can be interpreted as accusative instead. So, I think I'll have to settle with the idea that 2nd and 3rd possessive affixes are both -Vn. Unlikely as it sounds to me right now, I can't argue with Turkish. Maybe all of this is me being stupid, though.

That said, I have a bad feeling that this will remain one of the last lingering thing to get right in Turkish. Note to my future self: I'll probably come back to this, so be prepared.

ar ADDRESSED
And another little piece of derivational morphology:

Ve betadan çıktık. Tam zamanında çıkarıyoruz! We're out of beta. And we're releasing on time!
Bir gün, iki ırk arasında bir savaş çıkageldi.One day, a war broke out between the two races

çıkmak is to go outside/exit, and çıkarmak is to publish, release. çıkarmak also has additional meanings, that seems a bit mystifying, but interesting to note nonetheless.

çıkagelmek is probably a combination of çıkmak and gelmek, but just noting here.


Another specimen with -ar-.

Utangaç olmana rağmen kızıyorsun, gözlerin hüzünle bakarken gülüyorsun.
You get angry despite being shy, you laugh with the sadness of eyes

I know bakmak is to look, but what is bakarmak? Googling gives something akin to want, desire as suggested translation, but I doubt that'd make sense with the context. Perhaps the meaning is closer to stare intently, as if you desire it. You're laughing while staring with sad eyes. It's a bit too hasty to make a conclusion with two samples çıkarmak and bakarmak, but -ar- seems like some sort of intensifier.

ki CONCLUDED
Karavinka wrote:This can be stringed after other affixes, but apparently Turkish doesn't allow -V/V

dünyadaki : dunya-da-(k)-i  世界中の
uzaktaki : uzak-da-(k)-i 遠くの

All the more since this seems to be an exception of -k- softening to -ğ- between vowels. That is, if my parsing here is correct. I'm not quite sure of this yet.


That parsing is most likely not correct.

1. Işın tabancanla vur, uzaktaki masmavi gökyüzünü Shoot that light gun, at the blue sky far away
2. Aşkımı trajedideki Juliet'inki gibi yapma Don't make my love like Juliet in the tragedy
3. Dünyadaki herkesten çok sana ulaştırmak istiyorum I want to deliver it to you more than anyone in the world
4. Ve bir de masallardaki gibi beyaz bir atın olmalı And it has to be a white horse like in the fairy tales

Breaking down:

1. uzak-da-(k)-i
2. trajedi-de-(k)-i
3. dünya-da-(k)-i
4. masal-lar-da-(k)-i

I thought this was pretty concrete, and a surprise came along.

5. Tiz sesler dolduruyor tüm odayı Sharp voices fill all the room

Goddamnit. So.. what changed this time? From #1 to #4, -da simply marks the locative and the -(k)i is a possessive. It's not surprising to see multiple particles string next to one another, as Japanese will do the same thing with -de-no.

However, Juliet'inki in #2 is weird. It can be broken down as *Juliet-in-(k)-i, but as if Turkish suddenly doesn't want **-ini combination. Wait, it does. Like sınırlarının that was the focus in the last post. And all these examples from #1 to #4 lack the final -n. If I'm going with the above conclusion that the 3rd person possessive is really just -Vn, I might expect something like **Juliet'in gibi.

The last one, odayı, at least has a simpler explanation. The word root is oda, so -da+i becoming -daki is not a general phonological rule. So... what can it be?

Something else is going on here. I think I might have been looking at the wrong way all along.

6. Denersem inan ki başarabilirim! Believe me that I can do it!

Absolutely unlikely for a SOV agglutinating language to me at least, but ki is a relative pronoun like "that." What if the -ki at the end of those words is actually a full, relativizing morpheme, and is not of Turkic origin in the first place? That would at least solve another nagging problem, that it seems to violate the vowel harmony, that it's -daki instead of **-dakı. Maybe:

Aşkımı trajedideki Juliet'inki gibi yapma
Don't make my love like that of Juliet that (is) in the tragedy

Işın tabancanla vur, uzaktaki masmavi gökyüzünü
Shoot the light gun, at the blue sky that (is) far away
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-09, 6:01

The thread is getting long and a bit unwieldy. I'm going to tag my notes with the following:

* ADDRESSED : This was later addressed in a follow-up post.
* UNRESOLVED : I am not confident about the current tentative conclusion, if there is one. I need to address this in a different post, and change this to "addressed."
* CONCLUDED : I think I am right. For now. These topics can always be opened again, of course.

So that I can just ctrl+f and find what needs to be look at. Currently unresolved topics are:

-ik
Birincisi, saçımı yaptırdığımda bunu farketmelisin First, when I make a hairdo, you should notice it
Sürekli annemin yaptığı tatlıları yediğimden olsa gerek Must be because I've eaten sweets my mom made all the time
Birlikte varlığımızın amacını arayalım Let's find our raison d'etre together
Göstereceğim sana, neler hissettiğimi! I'll show you what my feelings are!

-ma
yetişkinler için artık uyuma vaktı For adults, now is time to sleep
Beni ısırmadan, nazik ol Be nice, before biting me

-maz
Hayır, hayır olmaz. If it isn't so, there's no fun at all
öyle olmazsa hiçbir eğlencesi yok If it isn't so, there's no fun at all

-ce

-miş

-(i)m vs -iyim

-Vn

-ar-

-ki
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2017-11-09, 9:04

Karavinka, I've been wondering, how is this thread going to finish? Will you check all your guesses against a grammar book as long as you are satisfied with them? Or will you perhaps take a Turkish text and try to see if you understand all the morphemes in it?

You're doing well. I see you've been dealing with the morphology so far; do you consider deriving any rules about syntax? Or is it just straightforward Japanese? :)

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-09, 9:42

voron wrote:Karavinka, I've been wondering, how is this thread going to finish? Will you check all your guesses against a grammar book as long as you are satisfied with them? Or will you perhaps take a Turkish text and try to see if you understand all the morphemes in it?

You're doing well. I see you've been dealing with the morphology so far; do you consider deriving any rules about syntax? Or is it just straightforward Japanese? :)


Thanks! The current goal is to reach 1k cards and see how much I figure out. I might decide that's not enough and go for another 1k, or I'd call it enough and buy a book to check the "answers." Or I might decide to go indefinitely, turn this thread into a language learning blog typical of Unilang, and if I go on indefinitely than I may exhaust the grammar. I honestly don't know yet.

Syntax is something I'm pretty terrible at, actually -- and this was the tie-breaker that I decided to try Turkish rather than Vietnamese. But it's not straightforward Japanese - there are some cards with sentences that look.. jarring to me, like:

Sanırım içeride kalmayı tercih ederim I think I'd prefer to stay inside

This will never happen in neither Korean nor Japanese, sanmak will need to be placed at the end. It seems Turkish allows a slightly freer word order at times, but I have no idea what is accomplished by fronting sanmak.

Or that ki, which Wiktionary tells me is of Persian origin. (WHY, why would you guys borrow a relative pronoun for a language that doesn't need it lol) This is going to throw a lot of curve balls and I may need to deal with the syntax when I see more examples of this.

And bir. This is on the to-do list.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-10, 5:26

173 Cards.

I think it's about time to get into the various verbal forms that appear between the subject and the verb. That is, in the middle of the sentence. They're nominalized in one way or another, and I don't know what the proper terms would be. I'll call them "connecting endings" a la Japanese rentaikei, though I don't really understand rentaikei myself either. (I couldn't really get myself to finish reading a Japanese grammar.)

Two big ones are missing, -sa and -miş addressed elsewhere. Miş, sa and cek seem to be able to finish the sentence, whereas the rest can't.

-cek ADDRESSED

1. Belki sen sana yardım edecek birilerini bulursun. Maybe you'll find people who'll help you.
2. Hayatta kalabilecek kadar güçlü olduğunu bana kanıtla. Prove to me that you're strong enough to stay alive.
3. bizi azarlayacakları kadar uzaklara To far, until/to the extent that we will be scolded

Clearly the same future/intent verbal particle -cek. #1 shows that this can directly modify nouns (birilerini), and both sentences show futurity. #2 literally says "prove to me, your being strong enough (that you) will stay alive" or so. #3 has the plural -lar on top of it, which seems all but optional with the plural. The last -ı in azarlayacakları, I still can't grasp it, it seems the same -Vn.

And of course, they also take extra endings.

4. Bilimin yapacağı onca şey varken When there is science to do
5. Artık gidebileceğim bir yer yok, bu aşkın sıcaklığında. Now there's no place to go, in the heat of this love.

#5 is straightforward that it's 1sg possessive, but #4 is a bit strange as I'm not sure if accusative makes any sense here. But that's the annoying V/Vn topic, so the -cek itself will be marked con/cluded for now.

Japanese will use infinitive (yardım edecek 助ける), Korean will use future -l (yardım edecek 도와줄)

-ip CONCLUDED

1. Her şeyi riske atacağım eninde sonunda sana sahip olacağım I'll risk everything and own you in the end.
2. Oh, ve bir de masallardaki gibi beyaz bir atın olmalı ve gelip almalısın beni. Oh, and it has to be a white horse like in the fairy tales, and come receive me.
3. Bu dolup taşan duygular senin için These overflowing feelings are for you
4. Meditasyon kapısından geçmek, ve arınıp mutluluğa ulaşmak için To pass the door of meditation, and be pure and attain happiness

The form is often followed by another verbal form, and they seem to express simultaneous or subsequent actions.

sahip olacağım (own - I will be)
gelip almalısın (come - you receive)
dolup taşan (fill - flow "overflow")
arınıp ulaşmak (be pure - attain)

I'm inclined to interpret this as a serialization in Turkish.

-mak ADDRESSED

1. Ahh, akıp gitmekte olan açık gökyüzü... Ah, the open sky that flows and goes...
2. Beni görmek istersen, sesimi duymak istersen When you want to see me, when you want to hear my voice
3. Neredeyse çıldırmak üzereyim I'm almost going to be crazy
4. Kendimi aşmak ne kadar zor bir şey. Overcoming myself is such a difficult thing.
5. Dünyadaki herkesten çok sana ulaştırmak istiyorum I want to deliver it to you more than anyone in the world

Of course it's the infinitive. It can be followed by a case particle like in #1, which is sort of reminiscent of German im+Inf im Laufen.

#2 and #3 are followed by another verb, and #4 simply treats the infinitive as a noun. These feel something like European barbarians would do to me, it's not something that'd be allowed in JA or KO.

-ma ADDRESSED

1. Yetişkinler için artık uyuma vaktı For adults, now is time to sleep
2. Beni ısırmadan, nazik ol Be nice, before biting me
3. Beni memnun etmek için ne yapman gerektiğini bilmelisin You should understand what you should do to make me happy
4. Bu olmadan önce beni kurtarmaya gel Come rescue me before this happens

#1 is not followed by a verb. Actually, there is no real verb in #1, vaktı (time) is simply serving as the predicate. Is this the preferred from before nouns?

Or certain case particles. Actually, Google Translate recognizes both ısırmadan and ısırmaktan and translate both as "from biting"; I might actually be facing two variant realizations of the same thing. Languages do that- is there a difference between Japanese -dewa and -ja? No.

That said.

Kekler tükenene kadar. Until you run out of cakes.

What happened to tükenmek here? Assimilation? ADDRESSED

-maya ADDRESSED

1. Bu olmadan önce beni kurtarmaya gel Come rescue me before this happens
2. Denemeye devam etmelisin, kekler tükenene kadar. You keep experimenting, until you run out of cakes.
3. Anladıysan eğer, diz çök ve beni prensesim diye çağır If you understood it, kneel down and call to say 'my princess
4. Engellemeye hazır ol! Get ready to intercept!

This is the same -(y)e that can be found with the nominals.

Binlerce kiraz ağacı geceye karışıyor, sesin bile ulaşamıyor Thousands of cherry trees mix into the night, your voice doesn't even reach

That said, I have no idea what is accomplished by adding a directional case particle. Well, many European languages have this annoying habit of throwing a preposition after an infinitive. Maybe Turkish does that too; some verbs just have to have -ye to sound natural.

Diye from demek is an interesting phonetic aberration that it is not **demeye. A little test with the Google Translate gives diye as "that", and demeye as "to say". Hmm, I'll just go with diye being something equivalent to Korean 라고 or Manchu seme, both of which are difficult to give English definition out of context.

-meyi ADDRESSED

1. Dans etmeyi denediğin üzücü zamanlar, ağlamayı isterken güldüğün zamanlar Sad times you try to dance, times you want to cry but laugh
2. Senin görüş alanına girmeyi başaramazdım. I didn't succeed entering your field of vision.
3. Haykırmayı denediğim megafon kırılmıştı The megaphone I tried to shout with broke down
4. Sanırım içeride kalmayı tercih ederim. I think I'd prefer to stay inside.

And what's happening here with etmeyi and girmeyi? Perhaps dans etmek is treated as a noun, plus accusative -i here? What's the difference between this and -meye?

Could this be as arbitrary as French, whether to use de or à after the infinitive? I hope not, because if that is, then I'll declare the statement "Turkish is completely regular" to be a bullshit. There must be something that's accomplished by using different case endings here.

-ken ADDRESSED

1. Dans etmeyi denediğin üzücü zamanlar, ağlamayı isterken güldüğün zamanlar Sad times you try to dance, times you want to cry but laugh
2. Utangaç olmana rağmen kızıyorsun, gözlerin hüzünle bakarken gülüyorsun, You get angry despite being shy, you laugh even while staring with depressed eyes
3. Sen ölürken hala hayatta olacağım. While you’re dying I’ll be still alive.

Contrast. Even while... or despite..? I need to see more of this. Especially because this violates vowel harmony with bakarken.

-en CONCLUDED

1. Neredeyse çıldırmak üzereyim, aslında daima iyi olan ben I'm almost going crazy, I'm actually always good
2. Kendini örten fakat soyunan bir kadından daha seksi bir kadın A lady who covers herself but still sexier than a naked lady
3. Sana yaklaşan kız ne kadar yetenekli ya da zeki olsa da Even when there's a capable and smart girl approaching you
4. Hepimizin iyiliği icin. Ölenler hariç.For the good of all of us. Except those who're dead.

Seems to be functioning as adjectives, modifying the nouns that come after it.

1. iyi olan ben
2. soyunan bir kadın
3. sana yaklaşan kız

#4 looks interesting, maybe Turkish allows adjectives formed in such a way to function as nouns, similar to English the + adjective. Ölenler: "the dead."

dVk CONCLUDED

And the thing that's been haunting from the first post.

Hepimizin iyili icin. Ölenler hariç.For the good of all of us. Except those who're dead.
Artık gidebileceğim bir yer yok, bu aşkın sıcaklığında. Now there's no place to go, in the heat of this love.

This iyilik seems to have been formed into abstract noun based on the root iyi. And if iyi can become iyilik, so can sıcak become sıcaklık, the rest are possessive -Vn and locative -da.

Now this.

Sürekli, annemin yaptığı tatlıları yedimden olsa gerek
It'd be because I've eaten sweets made by mom for a long time

How do I get from yapmak to yaptığı? Maybe *yap-dı-k-ı. /di/ is devoiced to /ti/, and /k/ is softened to /ğ/. At any rate, this would translate to English as past participle "made." The second one with yemek would likewise be: *ye-di-k-im-den, from my having eaten.

Similarly:

Bilmedim bir şeyler varsa. If there are things you don't know

The verb is bilmek, so: bil-me-di-k-im, "my not having known", i.e. "unknown."

These can also take extra case endings at the end:

Sen benim kim oldumu zannediyorsun? Who do you think I am?

From olmak, ol-du-k-um-u, "my having been", i.e. "my being." This is something that'd usually not get translated into English; and like I mentioned in an earlier post, this seems to echo Japanese -de aru to/-dato.

But then, why is it iyilik, not **iyik? The extra -li seems to be a different morpheme altogether.

li CONCLUDED

Ama aslında hiç uyumlu değil. But it's not fitting at all.
Benim hatam mı? Sevimli bir hata diyelim.It's my fault? Let's say it's a lovely fault.

Simply, it forms an adjective. Take a root, put an adjective ending and then put a nominalizing ending to make an abstract noun out of it. Seems similar to what German does with -lichkeit.
Last edited by Karavinka on 2017-12-03, 0:16, edited 16 times in total.
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Spoiler Alert: Turkish | -30 Thai | Sink or Zapotec

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Ser
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Ser » 2017-11-10, 5:41

I have to say, this is a pretty cool log.
carmina vel caelo possunt deducere lunam (Vergilius, Eclogae VIII.69)

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-10, 8:27

I thought that was enough for the day, but my sticky notes are getting a bit out of control and I need to get these out of my mind for now.

dir CONCLUDED

This thing can be attached to pretty much any part of speech and make a declarative sentence. Feels equivalent to Japanese -de aru and Manchu kai.

Adjective+dir:
Aşkın gözü kördür. Love is blind

Noun+dir
Bugüne kadarki tüm toplum tarihi, sınıf mücadeleleri tarihidir. The history of all societies to to this day, is the history of class struggle.

Finite verb+dir
Kapanıs mutlu bir final olmalıdır, seyircinin alkışarı eşliğinde The conclusion must be a happy ending, amidst the applauding spectators

Infinitive+dir
Filozoflar dünyayı yalnızca çeşitli biçimlerde yorumlamışlardır; oysa sorun onu değiştirmektir. Philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways; whereas the problem is to change it.

Interrogative+dir
Komünistlerin proleterlerle ilişkisinin aslı nedir? What is the basis of the relationship of the communists with the proletariat?

Negative+dir
Öteki işçi partileri karşısında komünistler özel bir parti değildir. Communists are not a special party against other worker parties.

If my intuition is correct, this is more literary, and when used in speech it's going to carry some emphasis. And please don't ask me why Marx is there.

maz vs ma ADDRESSED

First, maz.

Hayır, hayır olmaz. No, no you don't.
öyle olmazsa hiçbir eğlencesi yok If it isn't so, there's no fun at all
Beni bekletemezsin! Don't make me wait!
Sonuçta, geriye dönüp kaderini değiştiremezsin. After all, you can't go back and change fate.
Burada gördüğüm bu manzara, birazcık bile değişemez. The view seen from here doesn't change a bit.
Senin görüş alanına girmeyi başaramazdım. I couldn't enter your field of vision

And mi.

Ama bir türlü bulayorum. But I can't find any way.
Ağlıyorum... Hayır, ağlayorum. I'm crying.. no, I'm not crying
Hislerimi içimde tutamadım I can't hold my emotions inside
Bir ağıt bile duyulayor Not a lamenting voice is heard
Sesin bile ulaşayor Your voice doesn't reach

The problem: başaramazdım and tutamadım seem to be sharing pretty much the same structure, root-maz/ma-dı-m.

I almost came to the conclusion that maz is preferred as a sentence final without other tense elements. A lot of my "doing Turkish" is browsing through the Anki cards to find specimens of a certain morpheme; and başaramazdım just gave me a headache. Kudos for noticing this before I make a fool of myself, though.

Still, it seems like one is preferred in combination with certain affixes, and I might end up with migraine if I see something like **-mazyor instead of -miyor. Maz seems to be more preferred when that's simply the sentence final.

Serafín wrote:I have to say, this is a pretty cool log.


Thanks! To be honest, I was thinking about learning a language this way, and I felt there's a good chance that it'd end up better than using a book. In a way, this log is like a proof of concept.
Last edited by Karavinka on 2017-11-24, 10:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Spoiler Alert: Turkish | -30 Thai | Sink or Zapotec

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Saim
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Saim » 2017-11-10, 9:54

Cool experiment. The other day it occurred to me to do a similar experiment with something like Albanian or a Baltic language but I'm not brave enough to do something as different as Turkish. :lol: Good luck!

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2017-11-10, 17:06

Karavinka wrote:then I'll declare the statement "Turkish is completely regular" to be a bullshit.

:D Of course it's not. Even the morphology is not completely regular, and when it comes to syntax (and phraseology), it's just as arbitrary as any other language. You'll have to memorize which cases come with which verbs and all that jazz.

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-11-10, 19:12

Saim wrote:Cool experiment. The other day it occurred to me to do a similar experiment with something like Albanian or a Baltic language but I'm not brave enough to do something as different as Turkish. :lol: Good luck!


Try it! Engaging with the grammar directly (rather than reading about it passively) makes it much easier to remember, at least. (On the downside, there's a risk you might get stuck with a false conclusion for god-knows-how-long)

Actually, I picked Turkish because I thought it'd be more manageable; being an agglutinating language, so long as you pin down each morpheme, the language should make sense whereas I wasn't sure if I could build a complex declension table from scratch. (Though I do want to give it a try) That, and I speak two agglutinating SOV languages already.

voron wrote:
Karavinka wrote:then I'll declare the statement "Turkish is completely regular" to be a bullshit.

:D Of course it's not. Even the morphology is not completely regular, and when it comes to syntax (and phraseology), it's just as arbitrary as any other language. You'll have to memorize which cases come with which verbs and all that jazz.


Ah, there goes the shattered dream.. :lol:

Well, I guess it's one thing to be (well, relatively) free from exceptions and another thing to be arbitrary, haha. If there's no rule, there can't be exceptions to the rule. But thanks, that comment saved a lot of time. I won't have to think too much different case endings after infinitives. Technically that'd be a spoiler but I appreciate it this time
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