Ottoman alphabet

[modus.irrealis]

If you want, we can go through each letter, or only through those that have more than one value, for instance ک، ط or ض, or perculiar ones like ع.

Speaking only for myself, I'm okay with the basic values of each letter, so if you'd like to get to those that have more than one value, that'd be good.

Also, are there any techniques for determining the vowels? I've noticed things like the distinction between ق being used with back vowels (a, o, ı, u) and ك with front vowel (e, ö, i, ü). I don't know how far that goes (I imagine a word like kağıt is still spelt with ك). But do you know of any rules of this sort?

[modus.irrealis]

Now what I cannot understand is /k/ as /v/! Is there an explanation for that at all?

/v/ in Turkish is not always [v] but can be closer to [w], which makes it fit in better with the whole velar pattern.

[arab.american]

Now what I cannot understand is /k/ as /v/! Is there an explanation for that at all?

/v/ in Turkish is not always [v] but can be closer to [w], which makes it fit in better with the whole velar pattern.

But the alphabet has a sign for /v/ (Farsi) and/or /w/ (Arabic): و. I wonder if there is another reason.

[modus.irrealis]

I'm guessing there was some kind of sound change in certain environments to a [w] sound so that when the orthography was reformed, "v" could be used. This might shed some light, specifically #1.

And #3 seems to explain the spelling of طوکدیرمہ.

[kalemiye]

I'm guessing there was some kind of sound change in certain environments to a [w] sound so that when the orthography was reformed, "v" could be used. This might shed some light, specifically #1.

And #3 seems to explain the spelling of طوکدیرمہ.

I have problems to see the books, I don't know why. I try to check them again later.

As for Dondurma, I think I got a plausible explanation, but it is weird too. In Azeri of Iran (in the dialects spoken by old people in villages, because it seems that young people has adopted the Persian word بستنی، besteni), dondurma is/was called "tökdürme", which almost totally fits the Ottoman spelling. Yet, the meaning seems to be different, since it means something like "shaped thing".

ط can be read as t or d. That is why the word dağ is written as طاغ, while it is read as t in words such as سلطان or طاوا.

Officially, there is no w sound in Turkish, only v (that is why when Turks speak English you will hear them saying things like "velkom" (welcome) or "vindovs" (windows), if they have an accent obviously).

Actually, I have only heard a w sounds from Kurds and Arabs, that have this sound in their native languages. The use of ک as y or v is minimal, most of the time it will be read as either n, k, g or ğ.

[arab.american]

As for Dondurma, I think I got a plausible explanation, but it is weird too. In Azeri of Iran (in the dialects spoken by old people in villages, because it seems that young people has adopted the Persian word بستنی، besteni), dondurma is/was called "tökdürme", which almost totally fits the Ottoman spelling. Yet, the meaning seems to be different, since it means something like "shaped thing".

hmm... interesting!

Officially, there is no w sound in Turkish, only v (that is why when Turks speak English you will hear them saying things like "velkom" (welcome) or "vindovs" (windows), if they have an accent obviously).
Actually, I have only heard a w sounds from Kurds and Arabs, that have this sound in their native languages.

I have friends who are native Dari speakers, and they say that their parents all say wan for van because they don't have a /v/ sound either. But the Arabs substitute an /f/ for a /v/ when pronouncing foreign words fulfo for Volvo. I would guess orthography has some play in that, however.

[kalemiye]

Officially, there is no w sound in Turkish, only v (that is why when Turks speak English you will hear them saying things like "velkom" (welcome) or "vindovs" (windows), if they have an accent obviously).
Actually, I have only heard a w sounds from Kurds and Arabs, that have this sound in their native languages.

I have friends who are native Dari speakers, and they say that their parents all say wan for van because they don't have a /v/ sound either. But the Arabs substitute an /f/ for a /v/ when pronouncing foreign words fulfo for Volvo. I would guess orthography has some play in that, however.

Well, it is also a rule of the Turkish language that two vowels cannot come one after another (that actually is a good trick to guess when a word is Turkish or not, although it doesn't always work), i.e: Matbaa is a word that is not of Turkish origin because no Turkish word would have two vowels in a row (aa).

The dipthongs wa, we, etc. are not to be found in Turkish, and normally are replaced by ve, va, etc.

I am a bit sleepy now, but I will try to post examples and a more detailed explanation tomorrow.

[kalemiye]

و - vav

و can be read both as a consonant (v) or as a vowel (o, ö, u, ü)

Diacritics on و were created to denote that it has to be read as a vowel, and which one of them (there are four different diacritics that can be placed on و). I will post examples, since they cannot be written with computer keyboard. Nevertheless, they were rarely used. I found them only in Kamus-i Turki, and they are only used in the entries, to make sure that the word is read correctly by the reader, in case it is an unknown word.

Normally, if it is written in the beginning of a word as او it is a vowel. ‏ًٌٍَُُُُِِِّّأو is read as 'ev', though, but note that that elif has a hemze on it

While writing, take into account that this character is linked to the previous letter, but not to the next.

وو(vu-vo); وی (vi); وا (va); وہ (ve)

Here I leave some exercises for you to practice:

یووا - yuva
وینچ - vinç
ھوا - hava
دولت - devlet
استانبل - İstanbul
صاواش - savaş
وطن - vatan
سوریہ -Suriye
تورکیہ - Türkiye
موسم - mevsim
ماوی - mavi
قھوہ -kahve
واپور - vapur
أو - Ev
کوپک- köpek
اوتو - ütü
اوچاق - uçak
اون -un
صور - sur
اوکوز - öküz
اوچ - üç
تورکو - türkü
دولو - dolu
اورخان - Orhan

[kalemiye]

ی - ye

İt can be read as a vowel (i, ı) or as a consonant (y).

It can be joint to other characters by both sides.

When a word starts by elif-ye, ایـ it is read as i. ایران İran.

Certain suffixes, that can be read with u and ü, are normally written using ی, such as (-ci, -cı, -cü, -cu) جی and (-mi, -mı, -mu, -mü) می, (-di, -dı, -dü, -du) دی.

In some words, ی can be read as e, as in ایتمک(itmet --> etmek)

یا یہ یی یہ

Exercises:

آی- ay
یاش- yaş
آیی- ayı
یایا- yaya
یورد- yurt
قایا- kaya
چای- çay
کوی- köy
نی-ney
بایرام- bayram
یوزوک- yüzük
یاتاق- yatak
یوغورت- yoğurt
ییلدیز- yıldız
یالانجی- yalancı
دنیا - dünya
ایش - iş
ایلہ - ile
ایچ- iç
یازی -yazı
یدی- yedi
دین- din

[modus.irrealis]

Trying to catch up... have a couple questions:

کوپک- küçük

Is this right? I guessed köpek.

اون -un

Is this also how "on" is spelt?

[kalemiye]

ہ - he

It can be both a vowel (a,e) and a consonant (h).

When it has to be read as either a or e in he middle of a word, it is never attached to the following letter, as in کوزہ ل , güzel (sp, in the Ottoman Turkish written in the 20th century, in which we could find words like train spelt as ترہ ن (tren)).

When a word starts by ھ, that he is read a h.

If he in the middle of a word is found linked to letters on both sides, then it is read as h. I.E: قھوہ, kahve.

ھا ھہ ھی ھو
یــھــو
اہ یہ وہ


Examples:

قونیہ- Konya
حکایہ - hikaye
جھان - cihan
لالہ -lale
پھلوان- pehlivan
نانہ- nane
تشبیہ- teşbih
شھزادہ- şehzade
قاصا- kasa
دکیز- deniz
آننہ- anne
دوہ- deve
فوقہ- fırka
جمھوریت- cumhuriyet
تپہ- tepe
ھمشیرہ- hemşire
شاہ- şah
شھر- şehir
شھید- şehit
رھبر- rehber
قرہ- kara
خستہ- hasta
طلبہ- talebe
میوہ- meyve
سیاہ- siyah

[kalemiye]

Trying to catch up... have a couple questions:

کوپک- küçük

Is this right? I guessed köpek.

My mistake. It is köpek.

اون -un

Is this also how "on" is spelt?

Yes, maybe I should have given both options as an answer.

[kalemiye]

ژ - je

This letter is transcribed into modern Turkish as j.

It is found only in loanwords taken from Persian and French.

ژا ژو ژی ژہ

Exercises:

ژاندارمہ - jandarma
پیژاما - pijama
غاراژ - garaj
ژاپون - Japon
ژاپونیا - Japonya
رژیم - rejim
باغاژ - bagaj
ژتون - jeton
نژاد - nejad
ژیلت - jilet
ژہ نہ رال - jeneral
ژورنال - jurnal
آژاندا - ajanda
ژون تورک - Jön Türk
ژلاتین - jelatin
پروژکتور - projektör
ژہ ست - jest
ژہ نہ راتور - jeneratör
ژالہ - jale
پژموردہ - pejmürde
رژیسور - rejisör
ژہ او لوژی - jeoloji
شانتاژ - şantaj
قابوتاژ - kabutaj

[kalemiye]

غ - gayın

It can be read as both g and ğ.

Be careful when reading, since when written between two letters it can be easily confused with a ف: ــفــ (ف), ـــغــ (غ)۔

This character can be linked to other letters from both sides.

Be careful, learn well the ortography of words, because it's sounds is the same as گ (gef) !!

غ غــ ـغـ ــغ

Exercises:

آغری - ağrı
چاغ - çağ
آغا - ağa
غاز - gaz
باغ - bağ
غار - gar
آغاچ - ağaç
صاغلق - sağlık
بوغاز - boğaz
دوغو - doğu
غرب - garb
غیرت - gayret
غزل - gazel
غازوز - gazoz
دالغہ - dalga
غزتہ - gazete

[modus.irrealis]

For the g sound, is gayin vs. gef like kaf vs. kef? I mean, does gayin occur only with a, o, ı, u and gef with e, ö, i, ü (except in loanwords)?

[kalemiye]

For the g sound, is gayin vs. gef like kaf vs. kef? I mean, does gayin occur only with a, o, ı, u and gef with e, ö, i, ü (except in loanwords)?

I think there is a tendency for all syllables started with gayin to be followed by a ı o u, so there is in gef is followed mostly by e i ö ü. However, there are also words likeگوور, read as gavur (a Turkish word used in Ottoman times to call christians, meaning infidel) in which gef is followed by a.

I don't think this can be considered a rule, since it can be misleading sometimes, due to the heavy amount of loanwords taken from Persian, that break the rule, such as روزگار (rüzgar).

Also, you have to take into account that غ and گ used to be two different sounds in old Turkish, and the distinction is kept in İç Anadolu Türkçesi.

I think, therefore, that there is definitely a tendency, but it cannot be said to be a rule of the language.

[Mert]

Renata, I think you should have written Ankara's name in Arabic alphabet at your avatar information like that : آنقارا Because the k letter in Ankara isn't sensitive k.

[kalemiye]

Renata, I think you should have written Ankara's name in Arabic alphabet at your avatar information like that : آنقارا Because the k letter in Ankara isn't sensitive k.

I wrote it as it is written in Persian, but the ortography in Ottoman Turkish is آنقارہ.

[kalemiye]

You made me remember this picture I took with my phone, and I uploaded it to the internet to share it here .



آنقرہ شھرخریطه سی

[arab.american]

You made me remember this picture I took with my phone, and I uploaded it to the internet to share it here .



آنقارہ شھرخریطه سی

I do not see an ا in انقره in the picture. And that is probably why is it is written the way it is in Arabic: أَنْقَرَة