Ottoman texts - عثمانلی ترکجه‌سی متینلر

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby kalemiye » 2009-06-20, 15:09

1905

دہ درسعادتده فوتبالک ترقی و اِنکشافنه خادم اولمق ، موجود قلوبلر بینندہ بر مخادنت تأسیس ایتمش و ھر سنہ استانبول شامپیونلغیاچون مسابقہ لر کشاد ایتمک مقصد یلہ [استانبول قوتبال قلوبلری لیغی] نامیلہ بر ھیئت تشکل ایتدی و مسابقہ لر طرز جریاننی بر تکامل تدریجی یہ مظھر ایدہ بیلمک اندیشہ سیلہ بر نظامنامہ تریتب و تحریر ایلدی کہ الیو مرعی ومعتبر اولان آتیدہ کی مواد اساسیہ یی محتویدر


1905'te Dersaadet'te futbolun terakki ve inkişafına hadim olmak, mevcut kulüpler beyninde bir muhâdenet tesis etmek veher sene İstanbul şampyonluğu içün müsabakalar küşad etmek maksadıyla (İstanbul futbol Kulüpleri Ligi) namıyla bit heyet teşkil etti ve müsabakaların tarz-ı cereyanını bit tekâmülü tedriciyeye mazhar edebilmek endişesiyle bit nizamname tertip ve tahrir eylediği elyevm mer'î ve muteber olan atîdeki mevvâd-ı esâsiyeyi muhtevidir
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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby kalemiye » 2009-06-20, 21:42

1905

دہ درسعادتده فوتبالک ترقی و اِنکشافنه خادم اولمق ، موجود قلوبلر بینندہ بر مخادنت تأسیس ایتمش و ھر سنہ استانبول شامپیونلغیاچون مسابقہ لر کشاد ایتمک مقصد یلہ [استانبول قوتبال قلوبلری لیغی] نامیلہ بر ھیئت تشکل ایتدی و مسابقہ لر طرز جریاننی بر تکامل تدریجی یہ مظھر ایدہ بیلمک اندیشہ سیلہ بر نظامنامہ تریتب و تحریر ایلدی کہ الیو مرعی ومعتبر اولان آتیدہ کی مواد اساسیہ یی محتویدر


1905'te Dersaadet'te futbolun terakki ve inkişafına hadim olmak, mevcut kulüpler beyninde bir muhâdenet tesis etmek ve her sene İstanbul şampyonluğu içün müsabakalar küşad etmek maksadıyla (İstanbul futbol Kulüpleri Ligi) namıyla bir heyet teşkil etti ve müsabakaların tarz-ı cereyanını bir tekâmülü tedriciyeye mazhar edebilmek endişesiyle bir nizamname tertip ve tahrir eylediği elyevm mer'î ve muteber olan atîdeki mevvâd-ı esâsiyeyi muhtevidir

In 1905, in Istanbul, to serve development and progress of football, a commission known as "Istanbul football clubs' league" was established with the intention of establishing a mutual friendship between the current clubs, and opening competitions for the annual Istanbul championship, and also in order to achieve a step by step development in the competition's current modality and a regulation was established and written which contains basic which contains principal rules which are in progress today and also future's.

This is a bit of a free translation

1. درسعادت - Dersaadet

"Abode of felicity" - This is one of the names of Istanbul, and you can find it in books, in the part in which it says were it was published, you can see things like "Dersaadet 1302" (the dates are given in hicri) :).

2. طرز جریان - tarz-ı cereyanını

This is a Persian construction called izafe, that was used by the Ottomans. The usage in Modern Turkish is very restricted,and normally used to make something sound as old or more poetic (for instance, there is this soap opera called Aşk-ı memnu عشق ممنوع, that means Forbidden love). It never comes up in everyday converstions.

I think this are the two points that can be highlighted from this paragraph, if you have further questions, don't hesitate to ask me (but be aware there are chances that I don't know the answer because I am a beginner too).

By the way, modus.irrealis and eskandar were discussing previously about the conventions for writing Ottoman. Printed things look just like when we write something here in Arabic and put it between those (ar) boxes, i.e: عشق ممنوع.

Nevertheless, the handwriting was written with an style known as rik'a which has been used to write Turkish since really ancient times. Here is the small Wikipedia article about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riq'a. I personally don't find it beautiful, and it is actually hard to read.

Searching the internet for examples of this handwriting to show you, I found the handwriting of Atatürk in a document related to football ;).

http://www.turkfutbolu.net/tarih/images/fbataturk.jpg
Last edited by kalemiye on 2009-06-21, 20:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby modus.irrealis » 2009-06-21, 15:51

I had some trouble with the latter part of the sentence but I think I get it now after looking at your translation. I'm still following along -- not really getting the hang of the script but maybe that'll take time.

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby kalemiye » 2009-06-21, 15:56

modus.irrealis wrote:I had some trouble with the latter part of the sentence but I think I get it now after looking at your translation. I'm still following along -- not really getting the hang of the script but maybe that'll take time.


Yeah, this part was a bit complicated. I like this text because it is challenging, and it uses many old-fashioned words, but maybe we can put a hold on it and do an easier text so you can get the hang of the alphabet. I will be posting some stuff about the alphabet in the alphabet's thread, anyways :).
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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby Mert » 2009-06-21, 18:22

Renata, I am learning the alphabet yet. I am trying to read your texts, but it drives me crazy! Of! But I will succeed!
ه ه
ل
پ

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby kalemiye » 2009-06-21, 20:13

I see you guys are having trouble with the alphabet, therefore I will be posting in the alphabet thread. Post your questions about the alphabet there, and I can post exercises. I have been thinking on how to have our own alifba in that thread.

Also, I can put a hold on this text, and post something closer to Modern Turkish (it can be said that actually the texts are in Modern Turkish written with Perso-Arabic script), so you can read it in an intuitive way, since you can guess what the word is by context, for this purpose I can post the fairytale of Aladdin.

This text is a bit difficult, since the word order is a bit twisted and the vocabulary that is uses is old-fashioned and I have to be looking words up in the dictionary all the time, so at first sigh I am not understanding a word, and actually it took me much time to sort the last paragraph out.

Please, if you prefer changing the text, let me know, I don't want this text to discourage you :?.
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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby modus.irrealis » 2009-06-21, 20:51

I wouldn't object to changing the text -- I'm looking up almost all the words and that makes these long sentences even more frustrating. If the fairytale has simpler language, I think it'd be a good idea to take a go at that and come back later to this.

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby kalemiye » 2009-06-21, 21:04

modus.irrealis wrote:I wouldn't object to changing the text -- I'm looking up almost all the words and that makes these long sentences even more frustrating. If the fairytale has simpler language, I think it'd be a good idea to take a go at that and come back later to this.


Ok, then we are changing and we'll come back to this when people feel more confident with the script and the vocabulary :).

Btw, I posted an example of handwriting in my post about the last paragraph I translated, and I remember you asked about the shape of letters, check it and see how evily unreadable Ottoman handwritings can be :lol:.
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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby kalemiye » 2009-06-21, 21:22

علاءالدینک سحرلی لامباسی

Aladdin'in sihirli lambası

Aladdin's magic lamp


چوق اسکی زمانلردہ بر آفریقالی سحرباز واردی

Çok eski zamanlarda bir Afrikalı sihirbaz vardı.

There was upon a time an African sorcerer.

بو سحرباز چیندہ سحرلی بر لامباسی اولدیغی اوکرہ نمش بو لامبایی آلمق ایچون چینہ کیتمشدی۔

Bu sihirbaz Çin'de sirhili bir lambası olduğu öğrenmiş bu lambayı almak için Çin'e gitmişti.

This sorcerer learnt that there was a magic lamp in China, and he went to China to buy this lamp.

بو لامبا یر آلتندہ بر سرایک باغچہ سندہ آصیلی ایدی۔

Bu lamba, yer altında bir sarayın bahçesinde asılı idi.

This lamp was haging in a place under the garden of a palace.

بو باغچہ یہ کیدہ بیلمک ایچون یر آلتندہ دار بر یولدن کچمک لازمدی۔

Bu bahçeye gidebilmek için yer altında dar bir yoldan geçmek lazımdı.

In order to be able to go to that garden, it was necessary to pass a narrow path, in the underground place.
Last edited by kalemiye on 2009-06-22, 6:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby modus.irrealis » 2009-06-22, 0:12

Much much better :D. It does really help when you can think of the right word and predict what the inflectional endings have to be. That was actually enjoyable.

renata wrote:This is a Persian construction called izafe, that was used by the Ottomans.

Ah -- I had been wondering about this. I had read about it (and in fact first learned about its use in Persian through a post of eskandar's) but had completely forgotten about it.

Searching the internet for examples of this handwriting to show you, I found the handwriting of Atatürk in a document related to football ;).

I can't make out the letters, even with (what I assume is) that transliteration there :oops:. But handwriting is always weird. I can barely make out my mother's Greek writing, and people (allegedly) can't make out my English writing...

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby kalemiye » 2009-06-22, 17:37

بو یلدن کچرکن کیمیک أتکی دیوارہ دکرسہ او ئولوردی

Bu yoldan geçerken kimin öteki duvara değerse o ölürdü.

If somebody, while passing through this passage, touches the other wall, he (that sb) dies.

:سحرباز، ســـوقاقدہ علاءالدین اسمندہ بر چوجوق بولدی، اوکا دیدی کہ

Sihirbaz, sokakta Aladdin isminde bir çocuk buldu, ona dedi ki:

The sorcerer found a kid named Aladdin in the street, and told him:


I'll be back with what he told to Aladdin tonight or tomorrow, i gtg now. 8-) Aladdin definitely is my fav fairytale since I was small, it is sooooo great.
Last edited by kalemiye on 2009-06-23, 9:05, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby kalemiye » 2009-06-22, 22:04

علاءالدین، بو یرک آلتندہ کی سرایدہ بر خزینہ کیزلیدر۔ دیدکلریمی یاپارسہ ک، بو دنیانک اک زنکین آدامی اولورسک۔

Aladdin, bu yerin altındaki sarayda bir hazine gizlidir. Dediklerimi yaparsan, bu dünyanın en zengin adamı olursun.

Aladdin, under in the palace that is under this place there is a hidden treasure. If you do as I tell you, you will be the world's richest man.
Last edited by kalemiye on 2009-06-24, 21:02, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby modus.irrealis » 2009-06-23, 2:31

renata wrote:بو یلدن کچرکن کیمی أتکی دیوارہ او ئولوردی

Is there something missing there in ölüyordu? I don't see anything that corresponds to the "y".

Also, is there a missing word, corresponding to "if ... touches"? Or is this implied? And I don't understand the form "kimin" here. Why the "n" at the end?

And a question I forgot to ask earlier: why is there an extra "l" in the name Aladdin in the Arabic script?

Also, to test myself, here's what I got for the last part of the story you posted:

Aladdin, bu yerin altındaki sarayda bir hazine gizlidir. Dediklerimi yaparsan, bu dünyanın en zengir adamı olursun.

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby eskandar » 2009-06-23, 3:50

modus.irrealis wrote:And a question I forgot to ask earlier: why is there an extra "l" in the name Aladdin in the Arabic script?

It isn't extra. The lam (ل) comes before a sun letter, so it assimilates into the د rather than being pronounced. The Arabic pronunciation of علاءالدین would be something like `alaa' addiin.
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby kalemiye » 2009-06-23, 8:52

modus.irrealis wrote:
renata wrote:بو یلدن کچرکن کیمی أتکی دیوارہ او ئولوردی

Is there something missing there in ölüyordu? I don't see anything that corresponds to the "y".

Also, is there a missing word, corresponding to "if ... touches"? Or is this implied? And I don't understand the form "kimin" here. Why the "n" at the end?


My mistake, it is ölürdü. The verb to touch that missing there is also my fault (değerse -- دکرسہ) :cry:. I'm correcting it now, thanks for pointing that out.

I think a translation that would fit more to what is written in Turkish would be
Whoever touches the other wall dies.

Also, to test myself, here's what I got for the last part of the story you posted:

Aladdin, bu yerin altındaki sarayda bir hazine gizlidir. Dediklerimi yaparsan, bu dünyanın en zengir adamı olursun.


Aferin! :goodjob:

Let's continue! :)
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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby modus.irrealis » 2009-06-23, 11:38

eskandar wrote:It isn't extra. The lam (ل) comes before a sun letter, so it assimilates into the د rather than being pronounced. The Arabic pronunciation of علاءالدین would be something like `alaa' addiin.

I see -- so it's a name with the definite article.

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby modus.irrealis » 2009-06-23, 11:41

renata wrote:Aferin! :goodjob:

:D.

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby eskandar » 2009-06-23, 13:38

modus.irrealis wrote:
eskandar wrote:It isn't extra. The lam (ل) comes before a sun letter, so it assimilates into the د rather than being pronounced. The Arabic pronunciation of علاءالدین would be something like `alaa' addiin.

I see -- so it's a name with the definite article.

Yes. علاءالدین means "glory of the faith." Names like this are exceedingly common in Arabic (and thus in languages with names borrowed from Arabic, such as Turkish or Persian, as well): نصر الدين، شمس الدين، فتح الدين، جلال الدين، عبدالله، عبدالكريم، عبدالرحمن، عبدالرحيم، أسد الله، فضل الله and many more (those are just the first that came to mind).
Please correct my mistakes in any language.

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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby kalemiye » 2009-06-23, 20:23

eskandar wrote:
modus.irrealis wrote:
eskandar wrote:It isn't extra. The lam (ل) comes before a sun letter, so it assimilates into the د rather than being pronounced. The Arabic pronunciation of علاءالدین would be something like `alaa' addiin.

I see -- so it's a name with the definite article.

Yes. علاءالدین means "glory of the faith." Names like this are exceedingly common in Arabic (and thus in languages with names borrowed from Arabic, such as Turkish or Persian, as well): نصر الدين، شمس الدين، فتح الدين، جلال الدين، عبدالله، عبدالكريم، عبدالرحمن، عبدالرحيم، أسد الله، فضل الله and many more (those are just the first that came to mind).


Yes, they are common, especially among older people. Şemsettin, Seyfettin, and our famous Nasrettin Hoca. Normally that دّ (dd) is transcribed as double tt in Turkish (I wrote Aladdin, because that is the most common transcription for us, but actually I think the most common transcription in Turkish might be Alaattin). Abdurahim and Abdurahman are names used in Turkish, but that رّ is normally not transcribed as rr, but as r.

Nevertheless, the transcription of this kind of names can change from book to book,therefore we can only differenciate between those spellings that are most commonly used and those that are rarely used. For instance, Abdülhamit is the most common spelling of that name, yet you can find it written as Aptülhamit.

I am sorry for not posting any text today, but this morning for some reason after writing my message it send me back to the login screen, and there was no way of logging in, it kept refreshing the page :? (did anybody else experience this problem?), and now I am a bit tired and I have to go to bed early because tomorrow I have to wake up early.
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Re: Ottoman texts - عثمالی ترکجہ سی متینلر

Postby kalemiye » 2009-06-24, 21:41

بو یوزوکی پارمغکہ کچر، یولدن کـچرکــن دیوارہ دکمہ دن یورو، باغچہ دن لامبایی آل بکا کتر۔

Bu yüzüğü parmağına geçir, yoldan geçerken duvara denemeden yürü, bahçeden lambayı al bana getir.

Wear this ring on your finger, while passing the path walk without touching the wall, take the lamp from the garden and bring it to me.

اورادن ایستہ دیکک قدر الماس دہ آلابیلیرسک بر زورہ کلیرسہ ک یوزوکی پارمغکدن چیقار، بر پری کلیر وسکا یاردیم ایدہ ر۔

Orada istediğin kadar elmas da alabilirsin bir zora gelirsen yüzüğü parmağından çıkar, bir peri gelir ve sana yardım eder.

There, you can also take as many diamongs are you want, if any difficulty comes across take your ring out of your finger, a genie will come and help you.

علاءالدین سرایہ کیدن دار یولہ ســورونہ رک کیردی۔

Aladdin saraya giden dar yola sürünerek girdi.

Aladdin went crawlıng throught the narrow path that led to the palace.
Last edited by kalemiye on 2009-06-25, 16:56, edited 1 time in total.
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