Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2017-12-07, 11:56

Karavinka wrote:I wonder if other Turkic does the same T/V bullshit, though.

Azeri and Tatar do, and probably all the other ones spoken in ex-USSR (probably from French via Russian, and in Turkish directly from French - the French cultural influence, that is). I don't like the T/V thing either. It's good that other languages spoken in Turkey - Kurdish and Arabic -- didn't borrow it. It is so against the 'chill out and blend in' spirit of the Middle East.


Yeah prescriptively it's a mistake. It's made because herkes is often pronounced with the final "z".
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-07, 17:45

voron wrote:
Karavinka wrote:
Considering what bilmek literally means, yapabilmiyorum would suggests "not knowing how to do it" thus "unable to do," and without -bil-, it doesn't carry that extra.

*Yapabilmiyorum is ungrammatical and simply doesn't exist.

I don't have any sample that seems to show **-il-e-mez pattern

And this does exist.

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2017-12-07, 18:12

Karavinka wrote:Please.

I've edited my post and removed this part, sorry!

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-08, 1:14

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Trying to visualize Turkish verbs. Once the verbs are tamed, that's 80% of the important grammar tamed. Maybe a bit hard to see on the picture, but the blue underneath indicate their personal ending types.

possessive types:
→ Short infinitive etme

-di types:
→ Present perfect etti
→ Compound Tense ediyordu
→ Compound Tense edecekti
→ If: ederse

-iyor types:
→ Present impefect ediyor
→ Future edecek

To be determined
→ Potential edebil
→ Irrealis eder
→ Passive edil
→ Evidential etmiş
→ Obligation etmeli

Seems like still a way to go to fill this little map. And their negatives too. I think the old question of ma vs maz is case-by-case, with some finite verb forms preferring one or the other.

IF: -se/sa + pronominal endings

I'll try not to think the difference between this and eğer. If a language only has one way of saying something, that's probably a half-baked conlang.

1sg. Söylesemde anlamazsın. Even if I were to say, you won't understand.
2sg. Bir daha böyle bir şey söylersen affetmem seni! Say such a thing again and I won't forgive you!
3sg. Derin kuyular kazılmalı, eğer güzel bir su isteniyorsa. Deep wells should be dug, if one wants clear water.
1pl. Bundan sonra, ne zaman istersek birbirimizi görebiliriz zaten. After this, we can meet each other whenever we want, after all.
2pl. Klavyeden başka bir şey çalamam, ama kabul ederseniz bende size katılmak isterim. I can only play piano, but if you would accept I'd like to join you.

This morpheme itself was noted since some time, but I couldn't locate 1pl. Now I have a paradigm:

-sem (-mezsem)
-sen (-mezsen)
-se (-mezse)
-sek (-mezsek)
-seniz (-mezseniz)

And thus I feel safe to determine this to be: -di type. And this answers one of the previous questions left unanswered.

Bir hafta içerisinde dördüncü üyeyi bulamazsak, kulüp katatılacak.
If we don't find a fourth member within this week, the club will be closed.

What is even this. I'm highlighting the whole thing so I get reminded of this thing existing in my deck. I put this under -ecek forms because it somehow looked like it, but maybe it's bula-maz-sa-k or bul-amaz-sa-k, with -k being equivalent to ~の事. Will need to wait for other examples.

For some reason, it didn't come to me that -k could also be 1pl ending. That said, -k does seem to deserve another look. And...

Relativizing -ki

Yui, galiba bu telefonun ekranindakiyle aynı değil mi?
Yui, isn't it the same on your phone screen?

However I phrase this in English will make this awkward. I'll try a bit differently.

telefon-un ekran-inda-ki-(y)le

Similarly to Japanese -no koto, it feels like -ki in this sentence seems to wrap the whole phrase bu telefonun ekraninda as an NP, and takes a case ending.


1 Neredeyse çıldırmak üzereyim, aslında daima iyi olan ben. I'm about to go crazy, I'm always good in fact.
2 Açlıktan ölmek üzereyim, yiyecek birşeyler alalım. I'm dying from hunger, let's buy something to eat.

#1 was from Nov 9, and #2 from Dec 7. Meaning-wise, it seems to suggest proximate future, and requires long infinitive -mak/mek.

Ben buradayım, o yüzden sakın gözünü üzerimden ayırma! I'm here, so don't separate your eyes from (on top of) me.
Bu mesaj üzerinde çok düşündüm, belki birisine ulaşır, kim bilir? I thought much about this message, it might reach someone, who knows?
Sadece, kortun üzerindeki kiraz çiçeklerini görüp tehlikeli olabilceğini düşündüm. I just saw the sakura petals on the court and thought it might be dangerous.

So, as a location adverb, üzerim/üzerin/üzerin... i.e. üzer(e)-im? The last -e at the end of üzere is lost?

And as the... what do I call it. Say, this modal üzereyim. Proximate future would be a pretty common thing, but at the same time I'm not seeing much of this. I'm just noting its existence here, I cannot guess what the other person forms might be.

Genitive wrap after ne/bir

-Bir randevuda hayvanat bahçesine gitmek normal değil mi?
-Hayvan gibi kokuyor... Ve ne 'rendevu'su?

Oh, ve bir de masallardaki gibi beyaz bir atın olmalı ve gelip almalısın beni.

Screw this. (╯‵□′)╯︵┻━┻
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Linguistic Masochism: Spoiler Alert: Turkish

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-09, 7:26

643 Cards

Dear Thread, I have finished reading my first book in Turkish. It's a bit sad that honor goes to the manga adaptation of Konami's conspiracy to lower the Japanese fertility rate, but I came across a Turkish translation of it online and I had read it not too long ago in German (don't ask), so I knew the contents. And Rinko is waifu.

I've been adding more cards than before, I think I can handle 20-30 new per day. But not much time left to do grammar today before going to sleep, so just one more Hadise.


Hadise - Melek

Artik bakma yüzüme Don't look at my face now
Konusma, bitti Don't talk, it's over
Ve sözün yok And you have no word

Asksa gitti bak iste As for love it's gone, look.
Yalanlara kurban It's sacrificed to the lies
Ve özrün yok And you have no excuse

Sana yetse If you were content
Kalbim mutluluk olurdu My heart would have been happy
Aşkın sonundaki varışın Your love would have been fulfilled in the end

Yarı yolda Halfway through
Döndün ihanetinle You turned to deceive me
Onunlaymış senin yarışın Your race with her

Bulamazsın You can't find it
Dokunamazsın You can't touch it
Bendeki sana yabancı bir yürek There's a strange heart for you in me
Meleğindim I was your angel
Kanadımı kırdın You broke my wings
Uçmuyor artık Can't fly now
Aşkınla o Melek The angel above

Uçmaz artık o It doesn't fly now
Ne yapsan da Whatever you do
Olamazsın You can't do it
Yüzüme bakma Don't look at my face
Bir yabancıyım tanımazsın You don't see I'm a stranger

I like the way she sings here, much more than the other two songs - I like the husky tone. Though these seem to be her older songs and she has changed her style later on. The video itself is more to my liking, I prefer style with low-budget than high-budget with no style. (Of course, style with high-budget would be even better.)

The Hebrew part of my brain first thought melek would be "king", and realized it's mal'ak, "messenger."
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-10, 17:31

Just a few quick memoranda.


- durdurmak
- bembeyazlık
- masmavı

ne kadar ... olsa da

no matter ...
どんなに …でも、だとしても




yapmak istiyorum vs yapmani istiyorum

- long infinitive + istemek
- short infinitive + personal ending + accusative "I want ... to do ..."

analogously but not quite, yapmam gerekiyor. "I need to do X", but it's probably better to think of gerek in line of: il faut.


bir 'one'
biri 'someone'
birden 'suddenly, at once'
birkaç 'a few'
birçok 'a lot'
birbiri 'each other'
birşey 'something'
hiçbir 'not at all' <- maybe not a true compound, hiçbir şey 'nothing at all'
birleşmek 'unite'
birlik 'unit'
birlikte 'together'


So far, the best analogy of -arak that I can think of at the moment is Korean -로서.

1. as ...ing
2. by means of ...ing

I do want to see more of this form before concluding though.

And just a few extras

Şey... şu anda atari salonuna gitmek pek iyi bir fikir değil.Well... going to the arcade at this moment isn't a good idea at all.
Atari may become forgotten in history, but Turks will remember at least...

İkinci kişiliğim gülümsedi. My alter ego smiled.
How do you say "second character" then?

Şimdi, artık, şuan -- is there more? I'll see.

And let's try reading something of Wikipedia. It's interesting to note how sınıf translates "class" as in 1. classroom in school 2. social class and 3. vehicle/ship type. It may not be a loanword, but still a loan translation.


Uçak Gemisi Zuikaku, Japon İmparatorluk Donanmasında Shōkaku-sınıfı uçakgemisiydi. Uçakları Birleşik Devletlerin resmen II. Dünya Savaşına girmesine neden olan Pearl Harbor saldırısında görev aldı ve savaşın en önemli birkaç çarpışmasında yer alarak, en sonunda Cape Engaño Deniz Muharebesinda batırıldı.

The Aircraft Carrier Zuikaku was the Shokaku-class aircraft carrior in Japanese Imperial Navy. Its planes took a role in the Attack on Pearl Harbor which was the reason the United States officially entered the World War II, and while taking part in many of the most important battles of the war, it finally sank in the Battle of Cape Engaño.
Last edited by Karavinka on 2017-12-11, 7:06, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-11, 6:59

700 Cards

Yeah, exactly 700. I didn't cut it at 700 on purpose, it just somehow did. I wanted to try reading a few more paragraph-length texts -- though this is still more of a hacking than reading. I'm looking up a lot of words, and I do need to use a lot of what I already know about the topic to make sense out of the text. Context is important.

...why don't I pick something about Turkey? Turkish articles about Turkey, you know it's going to be way too long and too detailed. Not yet.

Bismarck'ın son muharebesi

Yaralı Bismarck artık kaçınılmaz sonunu bekliyordu. 27 Mayıs 1941 sabahı HMS Rodney ve HMS King George V zırhlıları Bismarck'a ateş açtılar. Manevra kabiliyeti olmayan Bismarck karşı koymaya çalışsa da kısa bir süre içerisinde bütün ana silahlarını kaybetti. Bismarck'ın savunma gücünü kaybetmesinin ardından kısa mesafeden ateş açan HMS Rodney gemi güverte üstünü tam anlamıyla tahrip etti. Ancak hala batmayan Bismarck'ın yardımına Alman denizaltılarını çağırmış olabileceğinden şüphelenen İngiliz donanması zırhlılarını bölgeden çekti.

HMS Dorsetshire kruvazörü çok yakın mesafeden yanan gemiyi tekrar torpilledi. Ancak bunun da gemiyi batırmaya yetmediği gözlendi. Saat 10:40'da mürettebatının tahrip kalıplarını çalıştırmasıyla alabora olan Bismarck battı.

Damaged Bismarck was waiting for her inevitable end. In the morning of May 27 1941, HMS Rodney and HMS King George V fired at the Battleship Bismarck. Bismarck, unable to manoeuver, tried to resist but soon after her weapons failed. Following Bismarck losing her defensive power, HMS Rodney fired at a close distance and literally destroyed above the ship's deck. However, the British navy pulled their battleships away from the area as they doubted they could have called German submarines to aid Bismarck which was not sinking.

The cruiser HMS Dorsetshire torpedoed the burning ship again from very close distance. However, even this didn't seem sufficient to sink the ship. At 10:40, while her crews trying to work the destroyed plates, capsized Bismarck sank.

MO harekâtı

Nisan 1942 sonlarında Japonlar, Yeni Gine'nin güneydoğusundaki Port Moresby'de ve Solomon Adalarının güneyindeki Tulagi'de hava üsleri kurarak Avustralya ve Yeni Kaledonya arasındaki Mercan Denizinin denetimini ele geçirmeye hazırlanıyorlardı.

Japonların Port Moresby'yi ele geçirme planını haber alan Müttefikler eldeki bütün hava ve deniz kuvvetlerini alarma geçirdiler. Japonların 3 Mayıs'ta Tulagi'ye çıkarma yapmaları üzerine, Tuğamiral Fletcher komutasındaki keşif kuvvetine bağlı bir uçak gemisinden havalanan ABD uçakları Japon çıkarma grubuna saldırarak bir destroyeri, birkaç mayın tarama ve çıkarma gemisini batırdı.

4 Mayıs'ta Rabaul'den yola çıkan asıl Japon kuvvetlerini oluşturan deniz birliklerinin çoğu doğuya doğru dolambaçlı bir yol izledi.

At the end of April 1942, the Japanese were preparing to take control of the Coral Sea, between New Caledonia and Australia, by creating air bases in Port Moresby in the southeast of New Guinea and in Tulagi in the south of Solomon Islands.

Having learned of the Japanese plan to take Port Moresby, the Allies alarmed all air and naval forces in their hands. As the Japanese were about to head to Tulagi on May 3, the ABD aircrafts flying from an aircraft carrier belonging to the reconnaissance forces under Admiral Fletcher's command raided the Japanese sortie group, and sank one destroyer, several minesweepers and amphibious landing ship.

The naval units constituting the original Japanese forces coming out of Rabaul on May 4 followed mostly a winding road towards the east.

Midway Muharebesi

Midway Muharebesi (Japon kod adı: MI Harekâtı), Muharebenin amacı stratejik Midway adası'nı almak ve Amerikan uçak gemilerini yok etmekti. Bu amaçla toplanan Japon armadasında 200 parçalık Japon filosunda 4 uçak gemisi ve 11 zırhlı bulunuyordu. Buna karşılık Amerikalılar 3 uçak gemisi etrafında 76 parçalık bir filo hazırlayabilmişlerdi.

Ne var ki Japonlar güçlerini dağıttılar. İki uçak gemisini, Amerikalıları kuzeye çekmek için Aleut Adaları’na doğru göndermişler, iki uçak gemisini de esas filonun çok gerisindeki çıkarma filosuna tahsis etmişlerdi. Japon şifresini çözen Amerikalılar birçok bocalamaya ve USS Yorktown'ın bu sefer batmasına rağmen, Japon İmparatorluk Filosu’nun belkemiği olan en önemli dört Japon uçak gemisini batırdılar.

The Battle of Midway (Japanese codename: Operation MI), the goal of the battle was to take strategic Midway Island and to destroy American aircraft carriers. With this goal, Japan's combined fleet had 200 ships, and within the fleet 4 aircraft carriers and 11 battleships. Against this, the US had prepared 3 aircraft carriers among the fleet of 76.

However, Japanese forces were scattered. Two aircraft carriers were sent to draw Americans to the north towards Aleutian Islands. They assigned two aircraft carriers to this fleet which was way behind the main fleet. Americans, who decoded Japan's ciphers, although they were quite confused and lost Yorktown during this campaign, they sank Japan's four most important aircraft carriers, the backbone of Imperial Japanese Navy.

The next morning. I'm just adding to this post. The text is largely as found on the link, with slight modifications: I don't really need USS and HJIMS and HMS.


Japon Uçak Gemisi Shōkaku, Japon İmparatorluk Donanması'nda, kendi sınıfının ilk uçak gemisidir. Kızkardeşi Zuikaku ile beraber Pearl Harbor saldırısı ve Mercan Denizi Savaşı da dahil olmak üzere II. Dünya Savaşı'nın Pasifik Cephesinde önemli saldırılarda yer alarak ün salmıştır.

Shōkaku, Yokosuka Tersanesinde 12 Aralık 1937 tarihinde başlanarak 1 Haziran 1939 tarihinde denize indirilmiş ve 8 Ağustos 1941 tarihinde hizmete girmiştir. Shōkaku sınıfı gemiler Yamato sınıfı zırhlıları da içeren program dahilinde tasarlandılar. Etkili modern tasarımı, 30,000 tonluk deplasmanı ve 34 knotluk (63 km/s) yüksek hızı ile Shōkaku 70-80 uçak taşıyabiliyordu. Geliştirilmiş savunmasıyla, akranları Müttefik uçakgemileri Coral Denizi ve Santa Cruz çarpışmalarında onu ciddi savaş hasarlarına ve uğramış olduğu torpido saldırılarına rağmen saf dışı edemedi.

Japanese aircraft carrier Shokaku was the first aircraft carrier of her class of the Imperial Japanese Navy. Along with the sister Zuikaku, she gained fame for taking place in major battles of the Pacific Theater of the World War II including the Raid on Pearl Harbor and the Battle of Coral Sea.

Shokaku began in December 12 1937 in Yokosuka Shipyard and was launched on June 1 1939, and entered service in August 8, 1941. Shoukaku-class was designed within the program that also included Yamato-class battleships. An effective modern design, with 30,000 ton displacement and 34 knot high speed, Shokaku could carry 70-80 planes. With her improved defense, the Allied aircraft carrier peers could not eliminate her, despite inflicting serious battle damage and suffering torpedo attacks in Coral Sea and Santa Cruz engagements.

Shōkaku ve kardeşi Zuikaku, Japon 5. Uçak gemisi Bölüğünü oluşturuyordu ve uçaklarını Pearl Harbor saldırısından hemen önce tam zamanında elde ettiler. Shokaku'nun uçakları 15 Mitsubishi A6M avcı uçağı 27 Aichi D3A pike bombardıman uçağı ve 27 Nakajima B5N torpido bombardıman uçağından oluşuyordu.

Shōkaku, Zuikaku ile birlikte Kido Butai'ye katıldı ve Ocak 1942 Rabaul çarpışması ve Mayıs ayındaki Coral Denizi savaşı gibi Japonya'nın savaşın başlarındaki saldırı dizilerine iştirak etti. Mart 1942'de Hint Okyanusu akınında Akagi, Zuikaku, Soryu ve Hiryu uçak gemileri ile birleşerek Colombo akınına katıldı. Amiral Nagumo, düşmanın destek birimlerine ağır hasar vererek başarıya ulaştı.

Shokaku and her sister Zuikaku constituted Japan's 5th Aircraft Carrier Division and obtained planes just in time before the Attack on Pearl Harbor. Shoukaku's planes were made of 15 Mitsubishi A6M fighters, 27 Aichi D3A dive bombers and 27 Nakajima B5N torpedo bombers.

Shokaku joined the Kido Butai along with Zuikaku, and participated in a series of Japan's initial raids in the war like the engagement in Rabaul on January 1942 and Coral Sea in the month of May. In March 1942, she joined the Indian Ocean Raid in bombing Colombo, along with the aircraft carriers Akagi, Zuikaku, Soryu and Hiryu. Admiral Nagumo was successful to inflict severe damage to the enemy support units.

Görevin başarılmasından sonra, görev gücü Coral Denizi'ne yol almadan önce İngiliz uçak gemisi Hermes ile Cornwall ve Dorsetshire destroyerlerini bularak batırdı. Shokaku, Lexington'ın batırılmasına yardımcı oldu ama dönüşte Yorktown'ın uçağı tarafından birkaç hasar aldı.

Tamirattan sonra Shokaku, kardeşiyle birlikte 1942 yılındaki iki çarpışmaya daha katıldı: Doğu Solomonlar savaşı (Enterprise'a hasar verdiler) ve Santa Cruz Savaşı (Hornet'ı batırdılar fakat Shokaku bir kez daha pike bombardıman uçakları tarafından ağır hasar gördü.)

After succeeding the mission, the task force found the British aircraft carrier Hermes with the destroyers Cornwall and Dorsetshire and sank them before heading to the Coral Sea. Shokaku helped in sinking Lexington, but took some damage from Yorktown's planes on the way back.

After repairing, Shokaku entered battle twice again in the year 1942 with her sister: the Battle of East Solomons (damaged Enterprise) and the Battle of Santa Cruz (sank Hornet, but Shokaku suffered severe damage again from dive bombers.)

The article feels a little incomplete as Shokaku's service would continue until 1944, and damaging Enterprise was most likely not Shokaku, but another carrier present in the battle, Jun'yo. I was a bit confused with the description of Midway as well, as I first misunderstood Turkish as if saying 2 out of 4 carriers were sent North, which was not true. Some words are a bit elusive, such as çıkarma, which I understood as "landing" or "sortie" in different contexts, but I may have mistaken.

Anyways, I took a brief look at Shokaku article and decided on this one as every paragraph contained the proper name, so even if I were to review these cards after long intervals, I would remember what the paragraph was about. Compared to what Turkish Wikipedia has on DKM Bismarck, it's compact to fit into Anki. Context.

The hardest thing about these kinds of articles? It's the numbers. I can't read them. It might be one thing I actually need to look up.


Muharebenin amacı stratejik Midway adası'nı almak ve Amerikan uçak gemilerini yok etmekti.

This is the first time I've seen where the long infinitive -mak/mek followed by a tense marker, but yok etmek here seems to be treated as a noun.
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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-13, 12:15

745 Cards

Cleaning up a few nagging things.

Case drop

Karavinka wrote:
This is a different topic, whether Turkish can drop accusative. Never in inflecting languages, but KO/JP at least drop cases when contextually obvious at least.

I forgot about this topic existing for some time.

1. Sen şarkı söyleyeceksin, ben dans edeceğim. You will sng, I will dance.
2. Bak! Öncüler civarda yürüyor ve Lenin'e şarkılar söylüyorlar. Look! Pioneers are marching, singing songs to Lenin.

Let's think about this. With #1, I thought şarkı söylemek and dans etmek may have been treated as a single word just spelled as two, and then it'd make sense why it has no accusative. But #2... if *şarkısöylemek is one word, then... why would it take -lar?

3. Ancak parmak uçların sertleşip nasır tutana kadar pratik yaparsan gerçek bir gitarist olabilirsin. However, you will become a real guitarist if you practice until your fingertips harden and get corns.
4. Isınmanızı bitirdikten sonra, ikili gruplara ayrılıp, pratiğe başlayın. After you've done warming up, separate in groups of twos, and start practicing.

This time pratiğe takes a case, a dative. Pratik yapmak doesn't.

5. Yapacağım bugün size çok korkunç bir duyuru. I'll make a terrible announcement to you today.
6. Ben uyuşturucuyu sevmiyorum ama uyuşturucu beni seviyor. I don't like the drugs but the drugs like me.

Turkish isn't afraid to use fillers to avoid -VV and will insist on endings most of the times, as in uyuşturucuyu... but I don't see one here in duyuru. But from what I can see from dictionary entries, the root is verbal, with duyurmak.

What I can conclude at this point:

Turkish may allow case drops in special circumstances, most likely when the verb and the object are lexicalized and treated as one word. However, it's pretty insistent on using cases in most circumstances, and careless omission of cases is probably bad Turkish.


Gitarist olmak için çok utangaçım. Gitarist grubun kalbi gibidir, tüm gruba öncülük etmesi lazım. Sahnede doğal olmazsan, dinleyicilerinde ilgisini çekmezsin değil mi?
I'm too shy to be a guitarist. A guitarist is like the center of the group, needs to lead the whole group. If you're not natural on the stage, you don't draw attention of the audiences, wouldn't it?

Üzgünüm, ama bugün kulübe gitmem lazım.
Sorry, but today I need to go to the club.

Lazım seems to convey some kind of necessity, but it's hard to pin down with only two examples. Both examples suggest something about the role (as a guitarist in a band, a member of the club).

Zamana ihtiyacım var, eroine değil / Alkole veya nikotine değil
Ne yardım lazım bana, ne kafein / Tek istediğim dinamit ve terebentin
I need time, no heroine / no alcohol or nicotine
I don't need help, no caffeine / Just want dynamite and turpentine

Tek ihtiyacımız biraz cesaret! We just need a little courage!
Şey... Başka birine ihtiyacım yok. Yalnız olmak tamamen iyi. Well... I don't need anyone. It's just fine being alone.

Throwing in ihtiyaç because they seem to convey similar meanings. I don't think it's about a role anymore, but I still think both express necessity. What's the difference? I doubt Turks know the difference. This is probably one of the things that you just do without thinking.


Sanal sınırları aşarak, dolup taşan bilgilerin içinde seninle birlikte gelişmek istiyorum
ヴァーチャルの垣根を超えて 溢れかえる情報の中
Reaching the virtual borders, in the midst of overflowing information, I want to evolve with you.

Eteğimi sallayıp hava atarak, bana bakmanı sağlayacağım!
スカートひらり見せ付けるのよ 君の視線奪ってみせるの
I'll make you look at me, throwing my skirt waving in the air!

Plus a couple more examples that are not olarak.

Eğer kimsecıkler yoksa, şimdi klübe katılarak başkan olabilirim... Bu hiçde kötü değil.
If there's no one, I can join the club now and be the president... This isn't bad at all.

Böyle düşünerek yalnız hissetmiyor musun?
Don't you feel alone thinking so?

Screw this. I can't seem to find a common theme around here other than this is not a sentence final. Maybe that's just what it is; while -ip is a serialization, this might simply be: and.


So far, the best analogy of -arak that I can think of at the moment is Korean -로서.

1. as ...ing
2. by means of ...ing

I do want to see more of this form before concluding though.

İngiliz uçak gemisi Hermes ile destroyerlerini bularak batırdı. They discovered and sank British carrier Hermes and destroyers.

Nope, wrong guess. I'm going back to the first guess, that this is simply and, or: upon which. One thing happens, and soon after another thing happens, possibly but not necessarily as a cause-and-effect. Or?

Dünya Savaşı'nın Pasifik Cephesinde önemli saldırılarda yer alarak ün salmıştır. She gained fame by taking place in major battles of the Pacific Theater in WW2.

This appears closer in meaning to the second guess. What I'm concluding for now: it does both.
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Linguistic Masochism: Spoiler Alert: Turkish

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-14, 5:48

miş ... and others

Not about the meaning, but this time about its location.

Bu tarz hikayeleri hiç anlamamışımdır. I felt like I didn't understand this genre of stories at all.
Şimdiden gelmişsin, Kobayakawa. Baya erkencisin. You're already here, Kobayakawa. You're early.

It seems that -miş can be followed directly by the personal ending. -im/-sin/-0. I can't build a paradigm because I'd need a 1pl. While at it, a little updated version of the basic paradigms:


It's goddamn annoying that I need to locate a 1pl as it's the only person that's different across all four and in fact, this is what's taking me so long to build the other paradigms. And please ignore the mistake with 1sg ediyorum. Well, well. But let's compare these two.

1. Diyelim bir füzyon reaktörüne dalmayı denersem, yine eskisi gibi uyuyabilecekmişim gibi hissettim Say, if I try diving into a fusion reactor, I feel like I could sleep like in the past
2. Her gece seninleymiş gibi hissediyorum. Every night I feel like I'm with you.

Both express how the speaker feels like, but one has mişim gibi, the other miş gibi. When I come across contradictions like this, the chances are usually:

a. The two express different things altogether.
b. It doesn't matter and both forms are correct.
c. One of them is either overcorrecting or being sloppy.

I just hope it's not a. If it's b or c, I can just live with it, but if it turns out to be a, I'll need some Tylenol.

And to locate this damn thing in a verbal chain:


I'm not sure which comes closer to the root, whether it's passive -il or potential -ebil.

The ones that directly modify the root's meaning, the causative -tir and la/lan/laş seem to be sharing the same slot for the present, but if I locate one example where both morphemes, I'll feel more confident. I do know ulaştırmak, but that one's a bit fishy as I'm not sure if ulaş- should even be broken into **u-laş.

Since future -ecek and imperfect -iyor either don't appear together or do so very rarely, the NEG is tentatively placed before -iyor, but this can change. I need to look into the negatives in more detail, and NEG may as well be possible in front of any tense marker.

But for now, let's settle that miş is primarily antepenultimate, near the end, and can be followed only by the perfect di and pronominal endings. Dir? That thing gets attached to anything, I'm not going to count that.

There are more holes and gaps regarding this table of infix order, but I'll leave it as it is for now. Delving into further details into this will require something of an undergrad linguistics paper level of workload, it's just not cost-effective. I'll just give myself more time until I develop an instinct for this.

Eğer Nagato'yla zaman geçirmemiz gerekiyorsa gidilebilecek tek bir yer vardı.

Phew. The passive il does come before the potential -ebil.


And for the record, I'm going to admit cheating. I looked up the number system. I could read 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 10, 30, 50, 100, 1000 until then.

I can just wait until the months or days of the weeks to show on my decks, but with numbers it's a bit more annoying as they're usually not spelled out.
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Linguistic Masochism: Spoiler Alert: Turkish

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-14, 13:02

758 Cards

Demet Akalın - Toz Pembe

Senin için aşk boş bir laftı, Love is an empty word for you
Dilinden düşüp de kırıldı It falls from your tongue and breaks
Tozpembe hayaller vardı, There were light-pink dreams
Pembesi gitti, tozu kaldı But the pink is gone, only dust is left

Beklenen final geldi çattı, The expected ending has come
Yıkıldı kapı duvar Door, wall collapsed
Seni bilmem ama, I don't know you but
Benim kalbimde In my heart
Birçok derin yara var There are many deep wounds

İstediğim şey çok değildi ki, I didn't want much
Sadece biraz sadakat Just a bit of loyalty
Ama sende değil, But as for you, no
Sana gönül verende asıl büyük kabahat Giving you my heart was the original big mistake

Dertsiz başıma dert açtın, You brought trouble to my trouble-less head
Hayatımda kısa süre yer aldın, You took place for a short while in my life
Gönül kapımı çalıp da kaçtın, You knocked the door of my heart and ran away
Ruh halin neydi anlayamadım I don't understand what was your state of soul

I was trying to find what tozpembe meant while I was editing this Anki card:

Biliyor musunuz... Ayda yürüyebilen Armstrong ve Aldrin için her şey ne kadar tozpembe olsa da... ben gemide kalmak zorunda kalan kişi için üzülüyorum...
You know... it would be so wonderful for Armstrong and Aldrin to walk on the moon... but I feel sorry for the person who had to stay in the ship.

Tozpembe seems to mean literally "pink dust", which seems to mean "light pink." That itself would be an interesting metaphor, probably akin to "rosy" in English; and the song is playing on words. I liked the song too, which is a nice bonus.


Negative of -meli. This was half-expected as the negative should come in the same place as in the short infinitive.

Ancak yeni milenyuma adım atmamıza izin veren kişileri de unutmamalıyız! However, we shouldn't forget the people who allowed us to take our step to the new millenium!
Ona daha fazla yakınlaşmamalısın. You shouldn't get closer to her.

Thanks to the 1pl, I am quite sure with:









Ama kabul ederseniz bende size katılmak isterim. But if you would accept I'd join you.
Merak etmeyin hala yapabilirsiniz! Devam edebilecek haldesiniz değil mi? Don't worry, you can still do it! You can keep going, can't you?
Belki bana inanmayabilirsin, ama ben bu çağa ait biri değilim. Maybe you wouldn't believe me, but I don't belong to this time period.

I'm expecting this pattern for all irrealis -ir forms, but the negative remains a question mark. What would be the negative of ederim, for example? Hmm.



Kendimi bir tarafa bırakıp, her şeyi değiştirirsem eğer, yine de siyaha çevirirdim. Leaving myself aside, if I were to change everything, then I'd turn everything to black.

Something I noticed a few days ago. It's actually a pretty old card, but I guess I wasn't paying much attention back then. I expect **edermedi for the negative, but I cannot be sure until I see it.

Wiktionary gives siyah as Persian loanword, as opposed to Arabic beyaz. Hmm, wasn't there ak as well? As in Ak Koyunlu.


Sonuçta, geriye dönüp kaderini değiştiremezsin. In the end, you cannot go back and change fate.

Must find 1pl present negative. I'm just leaving a note here so I'll hopefully remember what I need to look for.

-madi vs mazdi

First, paradigm.



I'm not sure if **ededi can be a thing or not. Either way, the complimentary distribution seems to be:

1. use maz/mez with passive il or potential a/e.
2. use ma/me otherwise.

At least when it's followed by the perfect ending -di.

Simple present negative

Yürümez bu iş böyle It doesn't work that way.
Umarım bütün o iskencelerden sonra travma geçirmez. I hope after all these tortures she doesn't get traumatized.
Sıradan insan olmadiğı sürece, erkek ya da kız olsun farketmez. So long as it's not an ordinary human, it doesn't matter if it's a boy or a girl.
Nereden veya hangi zamandan geldiğimi sana söyleyemem. I cannot tell you where or what time I came from.

I'm almost about to think this is done to disambiguate from the negative imperative, especially with the third person, otherwise it's going to be etme, same as negative imperative. But even then, 1sg bilmem is already ambiguous and the meaning is context-dependent. Is it short infinitive+1sg or root+negative+1sg? Both.

And I definitely need more plural examples. Either I'm blind or I just don't have one in my deck. A partial paradigm:

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Linguistic Masochism: Spoiler Alert: Turkish

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-15, 12:25

780 Cards

A little more practice with expositions. I don't know why, but I'm kinda in the WW2 mood the last few days.


T-34, 1940 ve 1958 yılları arasında üretimi yapılan Sovyet orta sınıf tankıdır. Çoğu otoriteye göre II. Dünya Savaşı'nın en iyi tankı olarak kabul edilir. T-34 o güne kadarki tank tasarımı anlayışını değiştirmiş, ondan sonraki bütün tanklar T-34'leri örnek almıştır.

Doğu cephesinde Alman Ordusu bu tank karşısında çaresiz kalmıştır. Tiger ve Panther tanklarının çıkışı ile T-34 savaş alanındaki mutlak üstünlüğünü kaybetse de, Rusya iklimine uygunluğu, kolay üretilebilirliği ve bunun getirisi olarak tartışılmaz sayı üstünlüğü ile Alman askerleri arasında korku salan bir silah olarak kalmıştır.

T-34 ateş gücünü, hızı ve sağlamlığı dengeli bir biçimde bir araya toplamıştır. Ayrıca eğimli zırh tasarımı, isabet eden mermilerin bir çoğunun tanka zarar vermeden sekmesini sağlamıştır. Bazı askeri tarihçiler onu dünyanın ilk ana muharebe tankı olarak addederler.

T-34, BT serisi tanklardan tasarlanmış olup Sovyet Servisindeki BT serisi tanklar ve T-26 tanklarıyla değiştirilmesi planlanmıştır. II. Dünya Savaşı ve sonrası dönemde SSCB zırhlı birliklerinin kullandığı temel tank sınıfı haline gelmiştir. Bununla birlikte savaş sonrası dönemde Varşova Paktı ve üçüncü dünya ülkelerine çok sayıda ihraç edilmişlerdir.

T-34 is a Soviet medium-tank produced between years 1940 and 1958. According to many authorities, it's regarded as the best tank of World War II. T-34 has changed the understanding of the tank design of the day, and all tanks follow T-34's model afterwards.

The German Army on the Eastern Front remained helpless against this weapon. With the debut of Tiger and Panther tanks, T-34 lost its absolute superiority on the battlefield but with its suitability to Russian climate, ease of production and the numerical superiority resulting from this, it remained as a weapon to be feared by German soldiers.

T-34 put firepower, speed and stability together in a balanced form in one place. Further, its sloping armor design allowed most of the hitting bullets to skip, without damaging the tank. Some military historians regard it as the world's first major battle tank.

T-34 was designed from BT series of tanks, and was planned to replace BT series and T-26 tanks in the Soviet Service. It came to the status of the default tank class for the USSR armored units to use in the World War II and afterwards. With this, in the postwar period it was exported in large numbers to Warsaw Pact and Third World nations.


II. Dünya Savaşı'nın başında denizaltı filosu komutanı olan Karl Dönitz'in geliştirdiği kurt kapanı taktiği ile bu denizaltılar özellikle savaşın ilk 2-3 yılında müttefik konvoylarına ağır kayıplar verdirmiş, ikmallerini aksatmışlardır. II. Dünya Savaşı'nda Atlantik'teki savaşın baş kahramanıydı. Savaşta Almanya en büyük denizaltı filosuna sahipti.

At the beginning of WW2, with the wolf trap (Wolfpack) tactics developed by the submarine fleet captain Karl Dönitz, these submarines inflicted severe damage to the Allied convoys particularly in the first 2-3 years of the war, shaking their reinforcement. He was the top hero of the World War II's Atlantic war. Germany owned the largest submarine fleet in the war.

Oysaki I. Dünya Savaşı'nın sonunda imzalanan Versay Barış Antlaşması'na göre Almanya'nın deniz kuvvetleri 6 kruvazör, 6 savaş gemisi ve 12 destroyerden fazla olamazdı. Ama Almanya antlaşmaya uymamış özellikle Hitler döneminde çokça U-bot üretmişti.

However according to the Versaille Peace Treaty signed after the First World War Germany could not have a navy of more than six cruisers, 6 warships and 12 destroyers. But Germany didn't comply with the treaty and produced a lot of U-Boote especially during Hitler period.

Winston Churchill günlüğünde şöyle yazmıştı: ''Savaş boyunca beni gerçekten korkutan tek şey U-bot tehlikesiydi.'' Savaşın başlarında Alman denizaltıları müttefik gemilerine çok fazla zarar vermişlerdir. Atlantik denizi savaş zamanı, Amerika ve Kanada'dan gelen gıda ve malzeme bakımından İngiltere açısından çok kritik bir denizdi.

Winston Churchill wrote so in his diary: "During the war, the only thing that made me fear was the danger of U-Boote." From the beginning of the war, German submarines inflicted heavy damage to the Allied ships. The Atlantic was a very critical ocean for England during the war time in terms of food and materials coming from America and Canada.

İngilizler gemiyle malzeme ve insan taşıyan gemileri U-bot'lardan korumak için konvoylar halinde hareket etmiştir. Bu konvoylar 30-40 gemiden oluşup 3-4 destroyer veya savaş gemisi tarafından korunuyordu. Buna karşın Almanlar Wolfpack (Kurt Kapanı) denilen bir taktik geliştirmişlerdi.

The British put ships into convoy operations to protect the ships carrying materials and people from the U-Boote. These convoys were made of 30-40 ships, protected by 3-4 destroyers or warships. Against this, the Germans developed a tactic called Wolfpack.

Dönemin Almanya Deniz Kuvvetleri Başkanı Karl Dönitz'in geliştirdiği bu taktik, genellikle tek dolaşan Alman denizaltılarının birleşerek birlikte aynı anda konvoylara saldırmasıydı. Denizaltılar birden konvoyun ortasında belirip etkili atışlar yapabiliyordu. Bu taktiğin can alıcı noktası saldırıların gece yapılmasıydı.

This tactic, developed by German Navy's then commander Karl Dönitz, was generally German submarines combining into a single wing and attacking the convoys together at the same time. Submarines would suddenly appear in the middle of the convoy and make effective fires. This tactic's crucial point was the raids were done in the ight.

Böylece U-botlar Müttefik gemileri tarafından zar zor seçilebiliyordu. Çünkü radar daha keşfedilmemişti. Almanların bu taktiği İngilizler için yıkıcı olmuştur. Kurt Kapanı taktiği radarın bulunmasıyla sekteye uğradı.

Thus U-Boote were barely recognized by the Allied ships. Because radar wasn't yet invented. This tactic of Germans was destructive for the English. The Wolfpack tactic experienced a halt with the presence of radar.

Bunun yanında İngilizler, Almanların kendi aralarında ve merkez karargahla kurduğu iletişimi şifreleyen Enigma makinesini saldırıya uğrayan bir Alman denizaltısından ele geçirmişlerdi ve şifreyi çözmeye başlamışlardı bile. Böylece U-botların bütün hareketlerinden haberdar olmuşlardı.

Beside this, the English obtained the Enigma machine which encrypted communication among themselves and with the central command from a German submarine that was attacked and succeeded in the decipherment of the code. Thus all movements of the U-Boote became known.

İlginçtir ki bu iki gelişmeden Almanların haberi yoktu ve üst üste gelen başarısızlıkların nedenini anlamıyorlardı. Radarın bulunması herşeyi tersine döndürmüş, U-botların ihtişamlı döneni sona ermişti.

Interestingly, the Germans didn't know of these two developments and did not understand the reason for the repeating failures. The presence of radar turned everything upside down, the grandiose period of U-Boote reached the end.


1942 Mayıs'ında Hiryu son görevine çıktı. Uçakları 21 Mitsubishi A6M "Zero" avcı uçağı, 21 Aichi D3A "Val" pike bombardıman uçağı ve 21 Nakajima B5N "Kate" torpido bombardıman uçağı. 4 Haziran günü Midway savaşına katıldı. Saat 04:30'da Midway Adaları'na uçaklara ve tesisatlara zarar veren bir saldırı dalgası gönderdi. Kaga, Soryu ve Akagi uçak gemilerinin hava saldırıları ile saf dışı kalmasının ardından yaklaşık olarak saat 10:25'de geriye aktif olarak bir tek Hiryu kalmıştı. Saat 10:50 ve 12:45 de Yorktown'a karşı iki saldırı dalgası gönderdi ve Amerikan gemisine çok ağır zarar verdi (daha sonra Japon denizaltısı I-168 tarafından batırılacaktı).

Hiryu set out for her final mission in May 1942. The planes included 21 A6M Zero fighters, 21 Aichi D3A dive bombers and 21 Nakajima B5N torpedo bombers. She participated in the Battle of Midway in the morning of June 4. She dispatched an attack wave to damage planes and equipments of Midway Island at 04:30. After the aircraft carriers Kaga, Soryu and Akagi fell out of line with air raids, after approximately 10:25, only Hiryu remained active. She sent two attack waves against Yorktown at 10:50 and 12:45 and delivered a severe damage to the American ship (which would be sunk by the Japanese submarine I-168).

Japon keşif uçakları geri kalan Amerikan uçak gemilerini tespit etti ve saldırı gücünden sağ kalan bütün uçaklar Hiryu'ya iniş yaparak yakıt ve silah ikmali yaptı. Üçüncü saldırı dalgasını göndermek üzere hazırlanırken Hiryu saat 17:03'de Enterprise'dan havalanan SBD Dauntless pike bombacıları tarafından saldırıya uğradı. Dört kere 1000 lb'lik (453,6 kg) bombalar tarafından isabet aldı, üç tanesi uçuş güvertesine ve bir tanesi geminin ortasına, köprünün hemen yanına düştü. Patlamalar hangar güvertesinde uçaklar arasında yangın başlattı.

Japanese reconnaissance planes later identified remaining American aircraft carriers and all surviving planes of the raid forces landed on Hiryu and replenished fuel and weapons. Hiryu suffered an attack at 17:03 from the SBD Dauntless dive bombers flying from Enterprise as she was preparing to send the third attack wave. She was hit four times by 1000 lb bombs, three times on the flight deck and once in the middle, it fell right next to the bridge. Explosions caused fire among the planes in the hangar deck.

Hiryu'nun tahrik gücü etkilenmemiş olmasına rağmen yangın kontrol altına alınamadı. 21:23'de motorları sustu ve gece 01:58'de gerçekleşen büyük bir patlama gemiyi sarstı. Çok kısa bir süre sonra gemiyi terk etme emri verildi ve hayatta kalanlar Kazagumo ve Makugimo tarafından kurtarıldı. Amiral Yamaguchi ve Kaptan Kaku, Hiryu, Makigumo tarafından torpidolanırken güverte üzerindeydi. Saat 09:12'de 35 adamıyla sulara gömüldü (diğer 250 kişi bomba yangın ve patlamalarla ölmüştü). Otuzbeş asker Amerikan Donanması tarafından kurtarılarak esir alındı.

While Hiryu's engines were unaffected, the fire could not be controlled. The engines were silent at 21:23 and at 01:58 in the night, a large explosion shook the ship. Soon after an order was given to abandon the ship and the survivors were rescued by Kazagumo and Makigumo. Admiral Yamaguchi and Captain Kaku were on top of the deck when Hiryu was torpedoed by Makigumo. At 09:12, 35 were buried underwater (other 250 died from bombing and explosion). 35 soldiers were rescued and taken captives by the US Navy.

It's almost weird to see articles on multiple Japanese carriers when there is no article on CV-6 Enterprise or Graf Zeppelin on Turkish Wikipedia. Someone in Turkey might be playing World of Warships with Japanese carriers.

I'm not particularly fond of "savaş gemisi" found on the U-Boot article. That's too vague, and the way it's written - 3-4 destroyer veya savaş gemisi - makes it look like "destroyer" and "savaş gemisi" (warship) are on the same level, while "destroyer" should in fact be a sub-category of "savaş gemisi." All the more on the part about the Treaty of Versaille; those six "savaş gemisi" most likely refer to six "zırhlı" (battleship). Well, that word also seems to mean "armor" which is a rather unfortunate polysemy, but still, it shouldn't confound battleships with warships.

Reading articles like these makes me think again about the Turkish evidentiality. Much of these stuff should be simply historical fact ... if the evidentiality extends to what cannot be verified as an objective fact at the moment with a living proof, then every historical fact would require this. But well, a lot of the sentences do have miş, but not all. Maybe the sentences that contain the evidentiality involve something of a guess, interpretation or extrapolation. Like:

1. Diğer 250 kişi bomba yangın ve patlamalarla ölmüştü.
2. Otuzbeş asker Amerikan Donanması tarafından kurtarılarak esir alındı.

2 can be verified, as there should somewhere be a list of those captives, whereas 1 certainly involves some form of guess. Probably the right guess as those 250 should have died in some way, but a guess is still a guess?
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