Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2017-12-07, 11:56

Karavinka wrote:I wonder if other Turkic does the same T/V bullshit, though.

Azeri and Tatar do, and probably all the other ones spoken in ex-USSR (probably from French via Russian, and in Turkish directly from French - the French cultural influence, that is). I don't like the T/V thing either. It's good that other languages spoken in Turkey - Kurdish and Arabic -- didn't borrow it. It is so against the 'chill out and blend in' spirit of the Middle East.

herkesden

Yeah prescriptively it's a mistake. It's made because herkes is often pronounced with the final "z".
Last edited by voron on 2017-12-07, 18:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-07, 17:45

voron wrote:
Karavinka wrote:
Considering what bilmek literally means, yapabilmiyorum would suggests "not knowing how to do it" thus "unable to do," and without -bil-, it doesn't carry that extra.

*Yapabilmiyorum is ungrammatical and simply doesn't exist.

I don't have any sample that seems to show **-il-e-mez pattern

And this does exist.


Please.
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Linguistic Masochism: Spoiler Alert: Turkish

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby voron » 2017-12-07, 18:12

Karavinka wrote:Please.

I've edited my post and removed this part, sorry!

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-08, 1:14

586 Cards

Image

Trying to visualize Turkish verbs. Once the verbs are tamed, that's 80% of the important grammar tamed. Maybe a bit hard to see on the picture, but the blue underneath indicate their personal ending types.

possessive types:
→ Short infinitive etme

-di types:
→ Present perfect etti
→ Compound Tense ediyordu
→ Compound Tense edecekti
→ If: ederse

-iyor types:
→ Present impefect ediyor
→ Future edecek

To be determined
→ Potential edebil
→ Irrealis eder
→ Passive edil
→ Evidential etmiş
→ Obligation etmeli

Seems like still a way to go to fill this little map. And their negatives too. I think the old question of ma vs maz is case-by-case, with some finite verb forms preferring one or the other.



IF: -se/sa + pronominal endings

I'll try not to think the difference between this and eğer. If a language only has one way of saying something, that's probably a half-baked conlang.

1sg. Söylesemde anlamazsın. Even if I were to say, you won't understand.
2sg. Bir daha böyle bir şey söylersen affetmem seni! Say such a thing again and I won't forgive you!
3sg. Derin kuyular kazılmalı, eğer güzel bir su isteniyorsa. Deep wells should be dug, if one wants clear water.
1pl. Bundan sonra, ne zaman istersek birbirimizi görebiliriz zaten. After this, we can meet each other whenever we want, after all.
2pl. Klavyeden başka bir şey çalamam, ama kabul ederseniz bende size katılmak isterim. I can only play piano, but if you would accept I'd like to join you.

This morpheme itself was noted since some time, but I couldn't locate 1pl. Now I have a paradigm:

-sem (-mezsem)
-sen (-mezsen)
-se (-mezse)
-sek (-mezsek)
-seniz (-mezseniz)

And thus I feel safe to determine this to be: -di type. And this answers one of the previous questions left unanswered.

Bir hafta içerisinde dördüncü üyeyi bulamazsak, kulüp katatılacak.
If we don't find a fourth member within this week, the club will be closed.

What is even this. I'm highlighting the whole thing so I get reminded of this thing existing in my deck. I put this under -ecek forms because it somehow looked like it, but maybe it's bula-maz-sa-k or bul-amaz-sa-k, with -k being equivalent to ~の事. Will need to wait for other examples.


For some reason, it didn't come to me that -k could also be 1pl ending. That said, -k does seem to deserve another look. And...


Relativizing -ki

Yui, galiba bu telefonun ekranindakiyle aynı değil mi?
Yui, isn't it the same on your phone screen?

However I phrase this in English will make this awkward. I'll try a bit differently.

telefon-un ekran-inda-ki-(y)le
携帯-の-画面-で-の事-と

Similarly to Japanese -no koto, it feels like -ki in this sentence seems to wrap the whole phrase bu telefonun ekraninda as an NP, and takes a case ending.


üzere

1 Neredeyse çıldırmak üzereyim, aslında daima iyi olan ben. I'm about to go crazy, I'm always good in fact.
2 Açlıktan ölmek üzereyim, yiyecek birşeyler alalım. I'm dying from hunger, let's buy something to eat.

#1 was from Nov 9, and #2 from Dec 7. Meaning-wise, it seems to suggest proximate future, and requires long infinitive -mak/mek.

Ben buradayım, o yüzden sakın gözünü üzerimden ayırma! I'm here, so don't separate your eyes from (on top of) me.
Bu mesaj üzerinde çok düşündüm, belki birisine ulaşır, kim bilir? I thought much about this message, it might reach someone, who knows?
Sadece, kortun üzerindeki kiraz çiçeklerini görüp tehlikeli olabilceğini düşündüm. I just saw the sakura petals on the court and thought it might be dangerous.

So, as a location adverb, üzerim/üzerin/üzerin... i.e. üzer(e)-im? The last -e at the end of üzere is lost?

And as the... what do I call it. Say, this modal üzereyim. Proximate future would be a pretty common thing, but at the same time I'm not seeing much of this. I'm just noting its existence here, I cannot guess what the other person forms might be.


Genitive wrap after ne/bir

-Bir randevuda hayvanat bahçesine gitmek normal değil mi?
-Hayvan gibi kokuyor... Ve ne 'rendevu'su?

Oh, ve bir de masallardaki gibi beyaz bir atın olmalı ve gelip almalısın beni.

Screw this. (╯‵□′)╯︵┻━┻
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Linguistic Masochism: Spoiler Alert: Turkish

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-09, 7:26

643 Cards

Dear Thread, I have finished reading my first book in Turkish. It's a bit sad that honor goes to the manga adaptation of Konami's conspiracy to lower the Japanese fertility rate, but I came across a Turkish translation of it online and I had read it not too long ago in German (don't ask), so I knew the contents. And Rinko is waifu.

I've been adding more cards than before, I think I can handle 20-30 new per day. But not much time left to do grammar today before going to sleep, so just one more Hadise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCOG2YhkIN8

Hadise - Melek

Artik bakma yüzüme Don't look at my face now
Konusma, bitti Don't talk, it's over
Ve sözün yok And you have no word

Asksa gitti bak iste As for love it's gone, look.
Yalanlara kurban It's sacrificed to the lies
Ve özrün yok And you have no excuse

Sana yetse If you were content
Kalbim mutluluk olurdu My heart would have been happy
Aşkın sonundaki varışın Your love would have been fulfilled in the end

Yarı yolda Halfway through
Döndün ihanetinle You turned to deceive me
Onunlaymış senin yarışın Your race with her

Bulamazsın You can't find it
Dokunamazsın You can't touch it
Bendeki sana yabancı bir yürek There's a strange heart for you in me
Meleğindim I was your angel
Kanadımı kırdın You broke my wings
Uçmuyor artık Can't fly now
Aşkınla o Melek The angel above

Uçmaz artık o It doesn't fly now
Ne yapsan da Whatever you do
Olamazsın You can't do it
Yüzüme bakma Don't look at my face
Bir yabancıyım tanımazsın You don't see I'm a stranger

I like the way she sings here, much more than the other two songs - I like the husky tone. Though these seem to be her older songs and she has changed her style later on. The video itself is more to my liking, I prefer style with low-budget than high-budget with no style. (Of course, style with high-budget would be even better.)

The Hebrew part of my brain first thought melek would be "king", and realized it's mal'ak, "messenger."
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Linguistic Masochism: Spoiler Alert: Turkish

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-10, 17:31

Just a few quick memoranda.

Reduplication?

- durdurmak
- bembeyazlık
- masmavı

ne kadar ... olsa da

no matter ...
どんなに …でも、だとしても

-lerce

-binlerce
-yüzlerce

istemek/gerek

yapmak istiyorum vs yapmani istiyorum

- long infinitive + istemek
- short infinitive + personal ending + accusative "I want ... to do ..."

analogously but not quite, yapmam gerekiyor. "I need to do X", but it's probably better to think of gerek in line of: il faut.

bir-compounds

bir 'one'
biri 'someone'
birden 'suddenly, at once'
birkaç 'a few'
birçok 'a lot'
birbiri 'each other'
birşey 'something'
hiçbir 'not at all' <- maybe not a true compound, hiçbir şey 'nothing at all'
birleşmek 'unite'
birlik 'unit'
birlikte 'together'

-arak

So far, the best analogy of -arak that I can think of at the moment is Korean -로서.

1. as ...ing
2. by means of ...ing

I do want to see more of this form before concluding though.

And just a few extras

Şey... şu anda atari salonuna gitmek pek iyi bir fikir değil.Well... going to the arcade at this moment isn't a good idea at all.
Atari may become forgotten in history, but Turks will remember at least...

İkinci kişiliğim gülümsedi. My alter ego smiled.
How do you say "second character" then?

Şimdi, artık, şuan -- is there more? I'll see.

And let's try reading something of Wikipedia. It's interesting to note how sınıf translates "class" as in 1. classroom in school 2. social class and 3. vehicle/ship type. It may not be a loanword, but still a loan translation.


Zuikaku

Uçak Gemisi Zuikaku, Japon İmparatorluk Donanmasında Shōkaku-sınıfı uçakgemisiydi. Uçakları Birleşik Devletlerin resmen II. Dünya Savaşına girmesine neden olan Pearl Harbor saldırısında görev aldı ve savaşın en önemli birkaç çarpışmasında yer alarak, en sonunda Cape Engaño Deniz Muharebesinda batırıldı.

The Aircraft Carrier Zuikaku was the Shokaku-class aircraft carrior in Japanese Imperial Navy. Its planes took a role in the Attack on Pearl Harbor which was the reason the United States officially entered the World War II, and while taking part in many of the most important battles of the war, it finally sank in the Battle of Cape Engaño.
Last edited by Karavinka on 2017-12-11, 7:06, edited 2 times in total.
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Linguistic Masochism: Spoiler Alert: Turkish

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Re: Spoiler Alert: Turkish (Karavinka)

Postby Karavinka » 2017-12-11, 6:59

700 Cards

Yeah, exactly 700. I didn't cut it at 700 on purpose, it just somehow did. I wanted to try reading a few more paragraph-length texts -- though this is still more of a hacking than reading. I'm looking up a lot of words, and I do need to use a lot of what I already know about the topic to make sense out of the text. Context is important.

...why don't I pick something about Turkey? Turkish articles about Turkey, you know it's going to be way too long and too detailed. Not yet.



Bismarck'ın son muharebesi

Yaralı Bismarck artık kaçınılmaz sonunu bekliyordu. 27 Mayıs 1941 sabahı HMS Rodney ve HMS King George V zırhlıları Bismarck'a ateş açtılar. Manevra kabiliyeti olmayan Bismarck karşı koymaya çalışsa da kısa bir süre içerisinde bütün ana silahlarını kaybetti. Bismarck'ın savunma gücünü kaybetmesinin ardından kısa mesafeden ateş açan HMS Rodney gemi güverte üstünü tam anlamıyla tahrip etti. Ancak hala batmayan Bismarck'ın yardımına Alman denizaltılarını çağırmış olabileceğinden şüphelenen İngiliz donanması zırhlılarını bölgeden çekti.

HMS Dorsetshire kruvazörü çok yakın mesafeden yanan gemiyi tekrar torpilledi. Ancak bunun da gemiyi batırmaya yetmediği gözlendi. Saat 10:40'da mürettebatının tahrip kalıplarını çalıştırmasıyla alabora olan Bismarck battı.

Damaged Bismarck was waiting for her inevitable end. In the morning of May 27 1941, HMS Rodney and HMS King George V fired at the Battleship Bismarck. Bismarck, unable to manoeuver, tried to resist but soon after her weapons failed. Following Bismarck losing her defensive power, HMS Rodney fired at a close distance and literally destroyed above the ship's deck. However, the British navy pulled their battleships away from the area as they doubted they could have called German submarines to aid Bismarck which was not sinking.

The cruiser HMS Dorsetshire torpedoed the burning ship again from very close distance. However, even this didn't seem sufficient to sink the ship. At 10:40, while her crews trying to work the destroyed plates, capsized Bismarck sank.



MO harekâtı

Nisan 1942 sonlarında Japonlar, Yeni Gine'nin güneydoğusundaki Port Moresby'de ve Solomon Adalarının güneyindeki Tulagi'de hava üsleri kurarak Avustralya ve Yeni Kaledonya arasındaki Mercan Denizinin denetimini ele geçirmeye hazırlanıyorlardı.

Japonların Port Moresby'yi ele geçirme planını haber alan Müttefikler eldeki bütün hava ve deniz kuvvetlerini alarma geçirdiler. Japonların 3 Mayıs'ta Tulagi'ye çıkarma yapmaları üzerine, Tuğamiral Fletcher komutasındaki keşif kuvvetine bağlı bir uçak gemisinden havalanan ABD uçakları Japon çıkarma grubuna saldırarak bir destroyeri, birkaç mayın tarama ve çıkarma gemisini batırdı.

4 Mayıs'ta Rabaul'den yola çıkan asıl Japon kuvvetlerini oluşturan deniz birliklerinin çoğu doğuya doğru dolambaçlı bir yol izledi.

At the end of April 1942, the Japanese were preparing to take control of the Coral Sea, between New Caledonia and Australia, by creating air bases in Port Moresby in the southeast of New Guinea and in Tulagi in the south of Solomon Islands.

Having learned of the Japanese plan to take Port Moresby, the Allies alarmed all air and naval forces in their hands. As the Japanese were about to head to Tulagi on May 3, the ABD aircrafts flying from an aircraft carrier belonging to the reconnaissance forces under Admiral Fletcher's command raided the Japanese sortie group, and sank one destroyer, several minesweepers and amphibious landing ship.

The naval units constituting the original Japanese forces coming out of Rabaul on May 4 followed mostly a winding road towards the east.



Midway Muharebesi

Midway Muharebesi (Japon kod adı: MI Harekâtı), Muharebenin amacı stratejik Midway adası'nı almak ve Amerikan uçak gemilerini yok etmekti. Bu amaçla toplanan Japon armadasında 200 parçalık Japon filosunda 4 uçak gemisi ve 11 zırhlı bulunuyordu. Buna karşılık Amerikalılar 3 uçak gemisi etrafında 76 parçalık bir filo hazırlayabilmişlerdi.

Ne var ki Japonlar güçlerini dağıttılar. İki uçak gemisini, Amerikalıları kuzeye çekmek için Aleut Adaları’na doğru göndermişler, iki uçak gemisini de esas filonun çok gerisindeki çıkarma filosuna tahsis etmişlerdi. Japon şifresini çözen Amerikalılar birçok bocalamaya ve USS Yorktown'ın bu sefer batmasına rağmen, Japon İmparatorluk Filosu’nun belkemiği olan en önemli dört Japon uçak gemisini batırdılar.

The Battle of Midway (Japanese codename: Operation MI), the goal of the battle was to take strategic Midway Island and to destroy American aircraft carriers. With this goal, Japan's combined fleet had 200 ships, and within the fleet 4 aircraft carriers and 11 battleships. Against this, the US had prepared 3 aircraft carriers among the fleet of 76.

However, Japanese forces were scattered. Two aircraft carriers were sent to draw Americans to the north towards Aleutian Islands. They assigned two aircraft carriers to this fleet which was way behind the main fleet. Americans, who decoded Japan's ciphers, although they were quite confused and lost Yorktown during this campaign, they sank Japan's four most important aircraft carriers, the backbone of Imperial Japanese Navy.



----------------------
The next morning. I'm just adding to this post. The text is largely as found on the link, with slight modifications: I don't really need USS and HJIMS and HMS.


Shokaku

Japon Uçak Gemisi Shōkaku, Japon İmparatorluk Donanması'nda, kendi sınıfının ilk uçak gemisidir. Kızkardeşi Zuikaku ile beraber Pearl Harbor saldırısı ve Mercan Denizi Savaşı da dahil olmak üzere II. Dünya Savaşı'nın Pasifik Cephesinde önemli saldırılarda yer alarak ün salmıştır.

Shōkaku, Yokosuka Tersanesinde 12 Aralık 1937 tarihinde başlanarak 1 Haziran 1939 tarihinde denize indirilmiş ve 8 Ağustos 1941 tarihinde hizmete girmiştir. Shōkaku sınıfı gemiler Yamato sınıfı zırhlıları da içeren program dahilinde tasarlandılar. Etkili modern tasarımı, 30,000 tonluk deplasmanı ve 34 knotluk (63 km/s) yüksek hızı ile Shōkaku 70-80 uçak taşıyabiliyordu. Geliştirilmiş savunmasıyla, akranları Müttefik uçakgemileri Coral Denizi ve Santa Cruz çarpışmalarında onu ciddi savaş hasarlarına ve uğramış olduğu torpido saldırılarına rağmen saf dışı edemedi.

Japanese aircraft carrier Shokaku was the first aircraft carrier of her class of the Imperial Japanese Navy. Along with the sister Zuikaku, she gained fame for taking place in major battles of the Pacific Theater of the World War II including the Raid on Pearl Harbor and the Battle of Coral Sea.

Shokaku began in December 12 1937 in Yokosuka Shipyard and was launched on June 1 1939, and entered service in August 8, 1941. Shoukaku-class was designed within the program that also included Yamato-class battleships. An effective modern design, with 30,000 ton displacement and 34 knot high speed, Shokaku could carry 70-80 planes. With her improved defense, the Allied aircraft carrier peers could not eliminate her, despite inflicting serious battle damage and suffering torpedo attacks in Coral Sea and Santa Cruz engagements.


Shōkaku ve kardeşi Zuikaku, Japon 5. Uçak gemisi Bölüğünü oluşturuyordu ve uçaklarını Pearl Harbor saldırısından hemen önce tam zamanında elde ettiler. Shokaku'nun uçakları 15 Mitsubishi A6M avcı uçağı 27 Aichi D3A pike bombardıman uçağı ve 27 Nakajima B5N torpido bombardıman uçağından oluşuyordu.

Shōkaku, Zuikaku ile birlikte Kido Butai'ye katıldı ve Ocak 1942 Rabaul çarpışması ve Mayıs ayındaki Coral Denizi savaşı gibi Japonya'nın savaşın başlarındaki saldırı dizilerine iştirak etti. Mart 1942'de Hint Okyanusu akınında Akagi, Zuikaku, Soryu ve Hiryu uçak gemileri ile birleşerek Colombo akınına katıldı. Amiral Nagumo, düşmanın destek birimlerine ağır hasar vererek başarıya ulaştı.

Shokaku and her sister Zuikaku constituted Japan's 5th Aircraft Carrier Division and obtained planes just in time before the Attack on Pearl Harbor. Shoukaku's planes were made of 15 Mitsubishi A6M fighters, 27 Aichi D3A dive bombers and 27 Nakajima B5N torpedo bombers.

Shokaku joined the Kido Butai along with Zuikaku, and participated in a series of Japan's initial raids in the war like the engagement in Rabaul on January 1942 and Coral Sea in the month of May. In March 1942, she joined the Indian Ocean Raid in bombing Colombo, along with the aircraft carriers Akagi, Zuikaku, Soryu and Hiryu. Admiral Nagumo was successful to inflict severe damage to the enemy support units.


Görevin başarılmasından sonra, görev gücü Coral Denizi'ne yol almadan önce İngiliz uçak gemisi Hermes ile Cornwall ve Dorsetshire destroyerlerini bularak batırdı. Shokaku, Lexington'ın batırılmasına yardımcı oldu ama dönüşte Yorktown'ın uçağı tarafından birkaç hasar aldı.

Tamirattan sonra Shokaku, kardeşiyle birlikte 1942 yılındaki iki çarpışmaya daha katıldı: Doğu Solomonlar savaşı (Enterprise'a hasar verdiler) ve Santa Cruz Savaşı (Hornet'ı batırdılar fakat Shokaku bir kez daha pike bombardıman uçakları tarafından ağır hasar gördü.)

After succeeding the mission, the task force found the British aircraft carrier Hermes with the destroyers Cornwall and Dorsetshire and sank them before heading to the Coral Sea. Shokaku helped in sinking Lexington, but took some damage from Yorktown's planes on the way back.

After repairing, Shokaku entered battle twice again in the year 1942 with her sister: the Battle of East Solomons (damaged Enterprise) and the Battle of Santa Cruz (sank Hornet, but Shokaku suffered severe damage again from dive bombers.)



The article feels a little incomplete as Shokaku's service would continue until 1944, and damaging Enterprise was most likely not Shokaku, but another carrier present in the battle, Jun'yo. I was a bit confused with the description of Midway as well, as I first misunderstood Turkish as if saying 2 out of 4 carriers were sent North, which was not true. Some words are a bit elusive, such as çıkarma, which I understood as "landing" or "sortie" in different contexts, but I may have mistaken.

Anyways, I took a brief look at Shokaku article and decided on this one as every paragraph contained the proper name, so even if I were to review these cards after long intervals, I would remember what the paragraph was about. Compared to what Turkish Wikipedia has on DKM Bismarck, it's compact to fit into Anki. Context.

The hardest thing about these kinds of articles? It's the numbers. I can't read them. It might be one thing I actually need to look up.

-----------------------------------------

Muharebenin amacı stratejik Midway adası'nı almak ve Amerikan uçak gemilerini yok etmekti.

This is the first time I've seen where the long infinitive -mak/mek followed by a tense marker, but yok etmek here seems to be treated as a noun.
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