Karavinka wrote:Technically that'd be a spoiler but I appreciate it this time
I'll shut up and promise I won't make any comments about grammar again.
Moderator:voron
Karavinka wrote:Technically that'd be a spoiler but I appreciate it this time
Karavinka wrote:-bil-: potential
1sg. Başarabilirim! I can do it!
1sg. Artık gidebileceğim bir yer yok Now there's nowhere I can go
1sg. 1sg. Biliyorum, ama ne yapmalıyım? Ne yapabilirim? I understand, but what should I do? What can I do?
Bazen hata yapabiliyorum. Sometimes I can make mistakes.
Yarın o şarkıyı söyleyebilmek için heyecanlanıyorum.I'm excited to be able to sing the song tomorrow
Daha çok yiyebilirim I can still eat more!
Bu sınırı aşarsak nereye kadar gidebiliriz? Crossing this border, how far can we go?
Seems right. This seems to crash into even infinitive like in söyleyebilmek. Though, what is -iri- at the end of yiyebilirim and gidebiliriz? I get the final -m and -z are personal pronominal endings.
voron wrote:Karavinka wrote:Technically that'd be a spoiler but I appreciate it this time
I'll shut up and promise I won't make any comments about grammar again.
Karavinka wrote:And a single card narrowed down the passive -nil- for me:
Yalanı fazla kaçıran Külkedisi
kurt tarafından yenilmiş
ne yapmalıyım, bu şekilde ben de
bir gün yenileceğim
As the verb is yemek "eat", and both verbs are translations of 食べられる.
Karavinka wrote:A little correction, the morpheme seems to be -cek as in the last post. Though, what is this gösterıcem? Is this a shortened form of göstereceğım?
Karavinka wrote: So, yenilmek can actually be the passive form of yemek and yenmek?
Explicit question: How popular is she in Turkey?
n
O yüzden biraz da olsa hazırlansan iyi edersin! So, it'd be good if you prepare yourself a little!
This is cheating. A dictionary simply gave hazırlanmak as reflexive of hazırlamak. I first thought if -lan- as a whole is one morpheme, but not only I was wrong, but I got spoiled here. Though that also leads to another question: if the form is to be broken into hazır-la-n-sa-n, what is la?
The -lik that appears in words like şimdilik (now) as opposed to şimdi (now) is still puzzling. Well, I'll get it eventually.
li CONCLUDED
Ama aslında hiç uyumlu değil. But it's not fitting at all.
Benim hatam mı? Sevimli bir hata diyelim.It's my fault? Let's say it's a lovely fault.
Simply, it forms an adjective. Take a root, put an adjective ending and then put a nominalizing ending to make an abstract noun out of it. Seems similar to what German does with -lichkeit.
Karavinka wrote:
Bilimin sınırlarının ötesinden geldim buraya I came here from beyond the borders of science
I don't think this was completely off, but I did overlook bilimin. The word is not followed by another that begins with a vowel, so why not just **bilimi? Similarly:
1. Bir iki, dünyanın tam köşesinde One, two, right at the corner of the world
2. Pop müziğin duygularından şarkı yapalım mı? Shall we make a song with the emotions of pop music?
3. Sana okulda asla öğrenemeyeceğin bir şey öğreteceğim. I'll teach you something they never teach at school
Here, dünyanın and müziğin are the possessors of köşe and duygular. With #3, whether öğrenemeyeceğin is also possessive is a bit muzzy as the word is some kind of verbal, but if öğrenemeyecek is broken down into öğrenmek-e-cek, that'd be a new use of cek.
The ones without -n.
4. Eminim insanların gözleri kamaşıcak. Surely, people's eyes will dazzle
5. Bu deftere adı yazılan insan, ölür.The human whose name is written is on this notebook, will die
6. Hadi gecenin kapısını birlikte açalım. Let's open the door of the night together
With all these examples -- particularly adı that raised the question in the previous post -- it can be interpreted as accusative instead. So, I think I'll have to settle with the idea that 2nd and 3rd possessive affixes are both -Vn. Unlikely as it sounds to me right now, I can't argue with Turkish. Maybe all of this is me being stupid, though.
That said, I have a bad feeling that this will remain one of the last lingering thing to get right in Turkish. Note to my future self: I'll probably come back to this, so be prepared.
Some compounding seems to happen this way:
günışığı (sunlight) : gün (day, sun) + ışık (light)
Interestingly, not only gün , but also ışık takes -ı. It's my second time encountering a language where a possessed word also must be marked in such a way; the first was Ainu.
Karavinka wrote:Absolutely unlikely for a SOV agglutinating language to me at least, but ki is a relative pronoun like "that." What if the -ki at the end of those words is actually a full, relativizing morpheme, and is not of Turkic origin in the first place? That would at least solve another nagging problem, that it seems to violate the vowel harmony, that it's -daki instead of **-dakı.
Karavinka wrote:5. Then why the hell is one prensesim and the other is prensesiyim?!
5. Adı. This is just an accusative.
voron wrote:Karavinka wrote:5. Then why the hell is one prensesim and the other is prensesiyim?!
I hope you won't mind this comment because you already have all the ingredients for the answer.
Ben dünyanın bir numaralı prensesiyim. -- because here, it's in a possessive construction: dünyanın prensesi!
EDIT: I've re-read your post and I feel an urge to comment on one more thing. Tell me if you won't like it.5. Adı. This is just an accusative.
This is actually possessive (in the sentence you quoted). Yes, for the noun "ad" the accusative and the possessive forms are identical and you can only tell from the context. Even if you don't exactly know what's going on about syntax in this sentence, you can tell that it is not accussative by noticing that yazılan has the passive affix -ıl- (and therefore can't take direct object).
Karavinka wrote:The Japanese original uses the object marker -wo, even if the verb is passive kakareru
Karavinka wrote:günışığı (sunlight) : gün (day, sun) + ışık (light)
Interestingly, not only gün , but also ışık takes -ı.
The -i- in the middle of günışığı might be -in with n dropped, or something else - a filler vowel to prevent consonant cluster.
voron wrote:You're welcome!Karavinka wrote:The Japanese original uses the object marker -wo, even if the verb is passive kakareru
This sounds very odd with my zero knowledge of Japanese. Passive verbs can have direct objects?..
Anyway no matter what Japanese does, Turkish has an ironclad logic with regards to the verb valency: the passive decreases the valency by 1, and the causative increases the valency by 1 (you have already identified both so it's not a spoiler, just a summary of what you've noticed yourself).
voron wrote:Karavinka wrote:günışığı (sunlight) : gün (day, sun) + ışık (light)
Interestingly, not only gün , but also ışık takes -ı.The -i- in the middle of günışığı might be -in with n dropped, or something else - a filler vowel to prevent consonant cluster.
I'm not quite sure what you meant here. Why are you saying that gün also takes -ı? It's just plain bare gün, plus ışık wıth the possessive -i, with nothing in between.
Let me say again how great you've been doing. Your explanations for some points that you have noticed are even better and more clear than those that are suggested by grammars.
- Uzun zamandır böyle dememiştim.
- Ben daha bir kaç gün önce duymuştum.
----
- これ言うのも久しぶりですね。
- 俺は先日聞いたばかりですが。
Karavinka wrote:Seninle bir yerde karşılaşmışlığımız var mı? Have we met before somewhere?
Seninle is "with you", but the final -mız is 1st person plural. From the context, this is a conversation between just two individuals. This suggests something interesting about the personal pronouns; this translates directly to "Have we met each other somewhere with you."
voron wrote:I was going to make a comment on the -miş- affix but I changed my mind. It's one of the hardest pieces of the Turkish grammar (at least for an Indo-European brain), and you're doing an awesome job in deciphering it. I don't want to affect it in a bad way; I'd rather stay away and watch.
Karavinka wrote:-cil
Hayır, aslında o kadar bencilce davranmıyorum. No, I'm not really behaving selfishly.
I'm not sure if there's much point overthinking if this is adjective or adverb. Either way, the words with this ending describe things. Bencil is pretty interesting, as it is formed with the pronoun ben as the root.
And they can further take more endings.
Tüm bu bencilce isteklerinden bıktım! I'm fed up with all these selfish demands
From ben to bencil "selfishly" and to bencilce "selfish." Did I say -ce was an adverbial in a previous post? I did. How do I feel now? Honestly, not much. This is a piece of derivational morphology, and I highly doubt either -ce or -cil can be universally placed after any word. In other words, I'm not going to guess new words and use the endings productively, it's something I only need to recognize when I see it. Case closed.
Her şey Onun aracılığıyla var oldu. Everything came to be through Him
The root is ara, between, with aracılık hacked apart as *ara-cı-lık. I understand the final -la is a case ending. Turkish doesn't prevent -kl- consonant cluster, even at the morpheme boundaries:
Yani, erkekleri bir patatesle aynı seviyede gördüğünü varsayabiliriz. So, we may guess she sees the boys at the same level with a potato.
And -la demands a connecting vowel when whatever that precedes it ends with a vowel.
Tek kelimeyle In short
This suggests the whole thing needs to be hacked as either: *ara-ci-lik-i-(y)-la or *ara-cil-lik-i-(y)-la. I'm not going to tear my hair apart whether this is -ci or -cil, though as aracılık is a complete word on its own right. The bigger problem is what looks like accusative -i and dative -la appearing simultaneously.
Bu galakside ki organik yaşam formlarıyla iletişim kurabilmek için geliştirilmiş insansı ara yüz olarak niteleyebiliriz.
We may describe it as a humanoid interface developed to contact with the organic life forms in this galaxy.
Memnuniyetimi abartıyla karşılamak zor.
It's difficult to respond with exaggeration to my happiness, i.e. It's difficult to exaggerate my happiness.
I haven't been really talking about the case endings, because 1. it's messy to form any correspondences with English prepositions anyways and 2. I've been establishing connection between Turkish case endings and that of Japanese and Korean. And I don't think it's going to be worth the effort to try to scrutinize them in detail, as they're bound to be idiomatic. However, this seems to demand some explanation. Except I don't have any.
Karavinka wrote:And another little piece of derivational morphology:
Ve betadan çıktık. Tam zamanında çıkarıyoruz! We're out of beta. And we're releasing on time!
Another specimen with -ar-.
Utangaç olmana rağmen kızıyorsun, gözlerin hüzünle bakarken gülüyorsun.
You get angry despite being shy, you laugh with the sadness of eyes
I know bakmak is to look, but what is bakarmak? Googling gives something akin to want, desire as suggested translation, but I doubt that'd make sense with the context. Perhaps the meaning is closer to stare intently, as if you desire it. You're laughing while staring with sad eyes. It's a bit too hasty to make a conclusion with two samples çıkarmak and bakarmak, but -ar- seems like some sort of intensifier.
Karavinka wrote:
1. Ahh, akıp gitmekte olan açık gökyüzü... Ah, the open sky that flows and goes...
2. Beni görmek istersen, sesimi duymak istersen When you want to see me, when you want to hear my voice
3. Neredeyse çıldırmak üzereyim I'm almost going to be crazy
4. Kendimi aşmak ne kadar zor bir şey. Overcoming myself is such a difficult thing.
5. Dünyadaki herkesten çok sana ulaştırmak istiyorum I want to deliver it to you more than anyone in the world
Of course it's the infinitive. It can be followed by a case particle like in #1, which is sort of reminiscent of German im+Inf im Laufen.
#2 and #3 are followed by another verb, and #4 simply treats the infinitive as a noun. These feel something like European barbarians would do to me, it's not something that'd be allowed in JA or KO.
Kekler tükenene kadar. Until you run out of cakes.
What happened to tükenmek here? Assimilation?
1. Dans etmeyi denediğin üzücü zamanlar, ağlamayı isterken güldüğün zamanlar Sad times you try to dance, times you want to cry but laugh
2. Utangaç olmana rağmen kızıyorsun, gözlerin hüzünle bakarken gülüyorsun, You get angry despite being shy, you laugh even while staring with depressed eyes
3. Sen ölürken hala hayatta olacağım. While you’re dying I’ll be still alive.
Contrast. Even while... or despite..? I need to see more of this. Especially because this violates vowel harmony with bakarken.
Karavinka wrote:First, maz.
Hayır, hayır olmaz. No, no you don't.
öyle olmazsa hiçbir eğlencesi yok If it isn't so, there's no fun at all
Beni bekletemezsin! Don't make me wait!
Sonuçta, geriye dönüp kaderini değiştiremezsin. After all, you can't go back and change fate.
Burada gördüğüm bu manzara, birazcık bile değişemez. The view seen from here doesn't change a bit.
Senin görüş alanına girmeyi başaramazdım. I couldn't enter your field of vision
And mi.
Ama bir türlü bulamıyorum. But I can't find any way.
Ağlıyorum... Hayır, ağlamıyorum. I'm crying.. no, I'm not crying
Hislerimi içimde tutamadım I can't hold my emotions inside
Bir ağıt bile duyulamıyor Not a lamenting voice is heard
Sesin bile ulaşamıyor Your voice doesn't reach
The problem: başaramazdım and tutamadım seem to be sharing pretty much the same structure, root-maz/ma-dı-m.
I almost came to the conclusion that maz is preferred as a sentence final without other tense elements. A lot of my "doing Turkish" is browsing through the Anki cards to find specimens of a certain morpheme; and başaramazdım just gave me a headache. Kudos for noticing this before I make a fool of myself, though.
Still, it seems like one is preferred in combination with certain affixes, and I might end up with migraine if I see something like **-mazyor instead of -miyor. Maz seems to be more preferred when that's simply the sentence final.
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