Latin - Lauren

[Lauren]

Gonna make my own thread since there's no general help thread.

I was browsing Verbix and happened upon the conjugation for "esse" and am wondering, even though obsolete, how passive forms of "esse" would even be used, like "esor". Or are those forms even real??

[Bernard]

Salve, Lauren!

Inter se differunt

esse (to be; sine passivo est)

et

ēsse (to eat, German "essen"); ĕdo, ēdi, ēsum, ĕdere = ēsse):

dicitur active: ĕdo, ĕdis = ēs, ĕdit = ēst, ĕdĭmus, ĕdĭtis = ēstis, ĕdunt;

et passive: ĕdor, ĕdĕris, ĕdĭtur = ēstur, ĕdĭmur, ĕdĭmĭni, ĕduntur.

Addendum: Verbix index mendosus est. Cautio adhibenda est!

[Lauren]

Salve, Lauren!

Inter se differunt

esse (to be; sine passivo est)

et

ēsse (to eat, German "essen"); ĕdo, ēdi, ēsum, ĕdere = ēsse):

dicitur active: ĕdo, ĕdis = ēs, ĕdit = ēst, ĕdĭmus, ĕdĭtis = ēstis, ĕdunt;

et passive: ĕdor, ĕdĕris, ĕdĭtur = ēstur, ĕdĭmur, ĕdĭmĭni, ĕduntur.

Addendum: Verbix index mendosus est. Cautio adhibenda est!

Gratias tibi! I'll be careful when using Verbix. That page you linked too looks great, though! I need to set up a keyboard layout so I can write Latin using macrons, as there is no other way. I'm looking forward to start posting in the TPAM thread here soon!

[IpseDixit]

This is a great dictionary/conjugator/"declensionator" (I have no idea what to call it ), unluckily for you it's in Italian but I guess you shouldn't have many problems using the conjugator/declension giver(?)

http://www.dizionario-latino.com/
http://www.dizionario-latino.com/dizion ... mma=SUM100

[Bernard]

Laurenae salutem dicit Bernardus.
Est quidem utilis ille index quem IpseDixit tibi commendat, neque tamen - pro dolor! - ab omnibus vitiis est liber. Ecce aliquot exempla (cf. ĕdo):

PRESENTE
I sing. ĕdo
II sing. ĕdis, edes:

"edes" hoc loco vitium habet, nam significat tempus futurum, non praesens.
Perfectum: non ĕdi, sed ēdi;
Plusquamperfectum: non ĕderam, sed ēderam*;
sed satis de hoc!

Quid deinde? Vigilare necesse est in hoc quoque adhibendo indice.

Addendum: Est etiam verbum ēdendi: ēdo, ēdidi, ēditum, ēdĕre, i. e. to give out, to 'edit'.

Vale.

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* Non ego soleo, ut vides, illis uti notis quae lingua Britannica 'macrons' appellantur.

[Lauren]

Thanks for the verb conjugator! I can use it just fine without knowing Italian. Also, Bernard, you speaking only in Latin is greatly testing my beginner-level abilities.

A question about pronunciation: When adding a suffix/enclitic like '-ne' and '-que' to a word, is the stress altered? For example, would the stress shift to the penultimate syllable, "matrísque", from "mátris?" My guess is no but I am not sure.

Thanks!

[IpseDixit]

Thanks for the verb conjugator!

You're welcome!

A question about pronunciation: When adding a suffix/enclitic like '-ne' and '-que' to a word, is the stress altered? For example, would the stress shift to the penultimate syllable, "matrísque", from "mátris?" My guess is no but I am not sure.

I'm pretty sure that it does not shift.

[Bernard]

...A question about pronunciation: When adding a suffix/enclitic like '-ne' and '-que' to a word, is the stress altered? For example, would the stress shift to the penultimate syllable, "matrísque", from "mátris?" My guess is no but I am not sure...

Salve, Laurena! Salve, IpseDixit!
"mátris", sed "matrísque".
Legite quaeso quid Bennett (§ 6) scripserit:

3. When the enclitics -que, -ne, -ve, -ce, -met, -dum are appended to words, if the syllable preceding the enclitic is long (either originally or as a result of adding the enclitic) it is accented; as, miserō´que, hominísque. But if the syllable still remains short after the enclitic has been added, it is not accented unless the word originally took the accent on the antepenult. Thus, pórtaque; but míseráque.

Et W. Sidney Allen (Vox Latina, A Guide to the Pronunciation of Classical Latin, 2nd edition, Cambridge 1978, p. 87f.) scribit:

When an enclitic … was added to a main word, the resulting combination formed a new word-like group, and a shift of accent was therefore to be expected in some cases: thus, for example, uírum but uirúmque. Such a shift is discussed by many of the grammarians, but is then generalized into a rule that when an enclitic is added the stress always shifts to the last syllable of the main word…: thus, for example, Musáque, limináque, …
It has been suggested that the general rule is in fact a grammarians’ rationalization …, and that the accentuation of e.g. Musaque was Musáque… In the case of liminaque … the expected accentuation would be limínaque; but it is possible that in combinations of this pattern the accent of the main word was maintained, perhaps with a secondary accent on the enclitic; one may note the common Vergilian pattern líminaquè laurúsque…

[Lauren]

Grātiās tibi, Bernarde. Yeah, I noticed that in Vox Latina shortly after posting that. I have no idea what these other suffixes are and can't find them in Whitaker's Words. Are there any webpages that explain them?

[Bernard]

...other suffixes ... Are there any webpages that explain them?

Laurenae salutem plurimam dicit Bernardus.
W. Sidney Allen (loco citato) mentionem facit horum encliticorum: -que, -ue (= -ve), -ne, -ce.
Sed etiam aliae sunt particulae suffixae. Considera quaeso haec exempla*:
-met: egómet, mémet, tibímet
-pe, -ppe: própe, quippe
-pse: reápse (Cic. leg. 3, 18)
-pte: suópte
-per: semper, paulisper, parúmper
-dem: ibídem
-dum: nóndum, agédum, agitédum
-ta: ita, aliúta (= aliter)
-de: inde, déinde, périnde
-tum: actútum
-num: etiámnum
Quod ad accentum pertinet, consentio ego cum W. Sidney Allen (l.c.):

It has been suggested that the general rule is in fact a grammarians’ rationalization …, and that the accentuation of e.g. Musaque was Músaque… In the case of liminaque … the expected accentuation would be limínaque; but it is possible that in combinations of this pattern the accent of the main word was maintained, perhaps with a secondary accent on the enclitic; one may note the common Vergilian pattern líminaquè laurúsque…

Vale.
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* Cf. Kühner-Holzweissig, Ausführliche Grammatik der lateinischen Sprache, Erster Teil, Darmstadt 1966 (Nachdruck der 2. Aufl. Hannover 1912), p. 244f.

[Lauren]

Thanks, Bernard!

I have a question about the placement of stress on some words. In a word like "bestiola" or "filiola" or "mulieres", where is the stress? Going by the regular placement, it would "bestíola", "filíola" and "mulíeres". This seems strange, though maybe it's my knowledge of pronunciation on daughter languages that makes me feel this is wrong. Is that the correct placement of stress, or is it somewhere else? Thanks!

[Bernard]

... "bestíola", "filíola" and "mulíeres". ..

Ita est ut scripsisti, Laurena: Apud Romanos "bestíola" (nam "o" syllaba paenultima correpta est), sed nostra aetate apud Italos "bestióla"; apud Romanos "philosóphia", apud Italos "filosofía", et alia multa sunt huius generis exempla.