loqu Latine

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Re: loqu Latine

Postby lama su » 2009-02-12, 7:20

KingHarvest wrote:
Æren wrote:We are taught that this verb has only perfect- coepi, coepisse. :para:


You were taught wrong then.

quoniam coepit Graecorum mentio Juvenal 3.114.


yes, and the full paradigm is:

coepio, -is, coepi, coeptum, -ere (with short "e")

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Re: loqu Latine

Postby loqu » 2009-02-12, 7:47

Verbumne coepi thema praesentis habet? :o Semper eum didici ut incipio, -ere, coepi, coeptum, sicut utrimque idem verbum forent. Incipio nullum thema perfectum habet, annon?

Gratias ago ob responsum tuum anterius. :)
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Re: loqu Latine

Postby Æren » 2009-02-12, 8:46

KingHarvest wrote:
Æren wrote:We are taught that this verb has only perfect- coepi, coepisse. :para:


You were taught wrong then.

quoniam coepit Graecorum mentio Juvenal 3.114.


Ok, but coepit can both be present or/and perfect here.
Later: i checked in my little lat-en-lat dictionary and there coepio is given, with a little note in the meanings that ''begin" is mostly understood in the perfect tenses. But in the Oxford Latin Dictionary (1968) only coepi,isse is given {p.342}.
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Re: loqu Latine

Postby lama su » 2009-02-12, 11:42

from harvard dictionary (very useful):

http://archimedes.fas.harvard.edu/cgi-b ... lter=CUTF8

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Re: loqu Latine

Postby loqu » 2009-02-28, 19:05

I've come across this sentence lately:

ab alio expectes alteri quod faceris

Someone on my MSN has it as a status message and it puzzles me. At first I didn't get the meaning, because to me, faceris is passive, which Whitaker's Words effectively confirmed. So I tried to reconstruct the meaning as something like: "expect from others something different than what you get done"... ???? . Obviously this makes no sense at all so I decided to google the sentence.

I googled the sentence and there are lots of webpages where it appears with the translation: expect from others the same you do to them.

Could someone please explain to me what I am missing in the sentence?

Thanks!
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Re: loqu Latine

Postby lama su » 2009-03-01, 10:26

loqu wrote: because to me, faceris is passive


"faceris" is not a passive, is an active "futurum exactum" (i don't know how it is called in english, "future perfect tense" i think but i'm not sure, in italian is "futuro anteriore")

so

faceris = you will have done

litteraly the phrase means:

expect from the other (alio, sg.) the thing that (quod) you will have done (faceris) to the other (alteri)

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Re: loqu Latine

Postby modus.irrealis » 2009-03-01, 15:48

The future perfect, though, would be "feceris" -- but anyway "faceris" probably is just a typo for "feceris" and "feceris" is what appears in google books searches. But I would take it as perfect subjunctive, and understand it as "what you have done."

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Re: loqu Latine

Postby lama su » 2009-03-01, 16:54

modus.irrealis wrote:The future perfect, though, would be "feceris" -- but anyway "faceris" probably is just a typo for "feceris" and "feceris" is what appears in google books searches.


i think "faceris" is an attested variant (tardive variant) of "feceris", but now you make me arouse a doubt..
:hmm:

modus.irrealis wrote:But I would take it as perfect subjunctive, and understand it as "what you have done."


uhm.. a subjunctive would be "what you would have done", "what you have done" is "quod fecisti".. i'm not sure a erfect subjunctive can be used in this context with this meaning.. :hmm:

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Re: loqu Latine

Postby modus.irrealis » 2009-03-01, 17:35

lama su wrote:uhm.. a subjunctive would be "what you would have done", "what you have done" is "quod fecisti".. i'm not sure a erfect subjunctive can be used in this context with this meaning.. :hmm:

I took it as an example of a "relative clause of characteristic" (I don't know any other term, but it's described at http://books.google.ca/books?id=38XVRyh ... #PPA182,M1 for example). That seemed appropriate because it's a general statement. So I see it as "what you've done" as in "such as you've done" rather than "what you actually did do". The perfect subjunctive doesn't seem all that common in this construction but http://homepage.usask.ca/~jrp638/latin/ ... ctsubj.pdf has examples like (from Cicero)

Multi autem et sunt et fuerunt, qui eam, quam dico, tranquillitatem expetentes a negotiis publicis se removerint ad otiumque perfugerint...

where it refers to the past.

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Re: loqu Latine

Postby KingHarvest » 2009-03-02, 23:09

Facio doesn't have a regular passive form as fio is the passive. Faceris is clearly feceris misspelt.
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Re: loqu Latine

Postby loqu » 2009-03-02, 23:56

I knew about fieri, but there were so many results in a google search on the sentence with faceris that I never thought it could have been missspelt.

Thanks to everyone.
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Re: loqu Latine

Postby KingHarvest » 2009-03-03, 0:15

It might be extremely late Latin (I'm too lazy at the moment to go look up whatever he's quoting). The OLD mentions that there are a few aberrant regular forms of facio. Of the two of the authors they mention I don't recognize the names at all so they're obviously not canonical; the other one is Petronius. Petronius' writing is only not perfectly rendered Classical Latin when he represents the speech of the lower classes.
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Re: loqu Latine

Postby KingHarvest » 2009-03-03, 0:31

And modus is quite right in his interpretation. Clauses of characteristic are especially common after vague antecedents like in this example.
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Re: loqu Latine

Postby lama su » 2009-03-03, 7:52

KingHarvest wrote:And modus is quite right in his interpretation. Clauses of characteristic are especially common after vague antecedents like in this example.



no i don't think.

"alteri quod faceris" is not a clause of characterisatic: in regard of what would "quod" be characterised?

And then, such a clause is generally introduced by "est/sunt qui", "inveniuntur/reperiuntur qui", "non desunt qui", "nemo est", "invenitur qui", "nihil est quod (cur, quare)", "quis est qui?", "quid est cur (quare)?", "dignus/indignus qui" and other similar phrases.. well this is not our case, and anyway the antecedent is not vague..

the future perfect tense is perfect for this sentence: "expect from the other (in the future) what you will have done to the other (so perfect future)"

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Re: loqu Latine

Postby KingHarvest » 2009-03-03, 8:05

It means "the sort of things that you have done." Aside from the grammar, I do not see how the sense of "You expect from others the things which you will do for others" is more logical than "You expect from others the sort of things you have done for others."
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Re: loqu Latine

Postby lama su » 2009-03-03, 9:19

KingHarvest wrote:Aside from the grammar, I do not see how the sense of "You expect from others the things which you will do for others" is more logical than "You expect from others the sort of things you have done for others."


indeed it depends by the way you understand the first "expectes": i understand it as a sugjunctive relative to the future: "expect (in the future) xyz", so the future perfect is the logical tence for the next part of the phrase.

It's the easier solution, and the easier solution is (almost) always the right one..

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Re: loqu Latine

Postby modus.irrealis » 2009-03-04, 2:39

I don't think either interpretation is more logical or easier -- in most contexts I would say they have the same pragmatic meaning. Anyway, in my searching for info, I came across a lot of these sayings which could go either way, so if anybody's interested:

ab alto speres alteri quod feceris
tanti eris aliis, quanti tibi fueris
ut sementem feceris, ita et metes
cuius tu fidem in pecunia perspexeris, verere ei verba credere?

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Re: loqu Latine

Postby lama su » 2009-03-05, 11:34

modus.irrealis wrote:I don't think either interpretation is more logical or easier -- in most contexts I would say they have the same pragmatic meaning.


uhm.. yes you are right..

so or a future perfect, or a subjunctive..

indeed, some times i ask to myself if the ancient Romans actually did the difference between this two form..

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Re: loqu Latine

Postby loqu » 2010-04-30, 18:23

could any of you guys help me understand these verses?

"Heu, fuge, nate dea, teque his" ait "eripe flammis!
Hostis habet muros. Ruit alto a culmine Troia".


They're from the Aeneid. I've been trying to decipher them for some time but I don't seem to be able to. I only get the part of the enemy has walls.

Thanks in advance.
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Re: loqu Latine

Postby Æren » 2010-04-30, 18:40

loqu wrote:
"Heu, fuge, nate dea, teque his" ait "eripe flammis!
Hostis habet muros. Ruit alto a culmine Troia".



Something like "Alas, run you, born of goddess, and save yourself form these flames/disasters.
The enemy has walls. Troia falls from a high summit".

For me the most intriguing was nate dea until I read the line in metrum and saw that "a" in dea is long and then as dea being an ablative everything got (almost) clear :)
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