Automatic glottal stop before vowels?

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XVoX
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Automatic glottal stop before vowels?

Postby XVoX » 2007-09-09, 10:27

Hi everyone!
I've just registered myself here, and I can't tell you how long it's been since I'm looking through the Net for a forum where I could find some answers to my questions about the Indonesian and the Malay language, since I'm so far away from any native speakers - I'm from Brazil - or even anyone who knows the smallest bit about the language, so, before anything else, thank you very much for the initiative! :D Now, to the question:
I don't know if this is a silly question, but is there an automatic glottal stop before any word that begins with a vowel in Indonesian? What about Malay? Because, for some time now, I've been using the "Rosetta Stone" software to try and begin to learn Indonesian, but not only the final "k"s are realized that way, but also every single time a word begins in a vowel, there seems to be a glottal stop inserted there. Could this be only because the people there are pronouncing the words as clearly as possible, so that beginners like me could understand them?

Thank you very much in advance & sorry for all the rambling,
XVoX.

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0stsee
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Selamat Datang!

Postby 0stsee » 2007-09-09, 10:52

Hi XVoX!

Bem vindo no foro indonésio!

Eu sou um falante nativo e ajudarteei com prazer.

But I think I should stop writing Portuguese now, my knowledge is not that good. :lol:

Now with the glottal stop, could you perhaps give an example in a sentence? Because i don't really understand what you mean.

And with the final -K, many speakers (including me) pronounce it as a normal K instead as a glottal stop. Even if they do use a glottal stop, it is slightly different from the one heard in English.


Some Indonesian words from Portuguese:

meja = mesa
kemeja = camisa
sepatu = sapato
Sabtu = Sábato
Minggu = Domingo
jendela = janela
mentega = manteiga (?)
bola
roda
bolu = bolo
boneka = boneca
Ini tandatanganku.

XVoX
Posts:13
Joined:2007-09-09, 10:00

Postby XVoX » 2007-09-09, 12:19

Hi 0stsee!
Muito obrigado pela sua resposta e, a propósito, seu Português está ótimo! :D
Oh! And thank you also for the words that came from Portuguese - at least these I won't have any trouble remembering... :D - and for telling me about the "k" being pronounced as just "k"... That actually makes things a lot easier, since this is a sound I'm more familiar with... Does the majority of Indonesians pronounce it like that?
As for the original question, I just remembered a (weird) sentence from that software that could serve as an example:

"Apakah ada seorang anak laki-laki di atas rumah itu?"

Considering the apostrophes (') as the glottal stops - that sound of "k" at the end of the words - and the capitals as the tonic syllables, this is how this was pronounced there:

['aPAkah 'Ada se'Orang 'Ana' LAki LAki di'Atas RUmah 'Itu]

Is this how you'd normally pronounce this sentence? Is this many glottal stops or pauses something usual even when speaking fast in Indonesian?

Once again,
Thank you very much for your prompt reply & warm welcome,
And your Portuguese is great, :D
XVoX.

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0stsee
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Indonesian Prosody

Postby 0stsee » 2007-09-09, 13:25

Hej XVoX!

Obrigado pelo seu compliment.

Apakah ada seorang anak laki-laki di atas rumah itu?

If I were to read that sentence, I would not really use glottal stops, except if I'm trying to read it very clearly (in which case I would still pronounce the K in anak).


In natural spoken language I would say:

"Di atas rumah itu ada (seorang) anak laki-laki, ya?"


It is important to remember that the stress pattern or prosody in Indonesian resembles that of French.

Please take a look at this thread which discusses about the (French) prosody.
Ini tandatanganku.

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0stsee
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Re: Selamat Datang!

Postby 0stsee » 2007-09-09, 13:35

I'm adding something I saw today. :wink:


Some Indonesian words from Portuguese:

bendèra = bandeira
bola
bolu = bolo
bonèka = boneca
jendèla = janela
kemèja = camisa
mèja = mesa
mentèga = manteiga
Minggu = Domingo
Sabtu = Sábato
sepatu = sapato
roda

PS: è doesn't denote stress. It only shows that it's pronounced as an open E.
Ini tandatanganku.

XVoX
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Joined:2007-09-09, 10:00

Postby XVoX » 2007-09-10, 6:17

Hi 0stsee - or yet, Mark! :D
Thank you once again for your kind help & for the tip on the stress pattern of Indonesian, and sorry for taking so long to reply.

Just to see if I understand it correctly, considering again the apostrophe (') as the glottal stop and the capitals as the tonic syllables, would the sentence you wrote

"Di atas rumah itu ada anak laki-laki, ya?"

Be pronounced sort of like this?

[diatasrumaHItuadanaklakiLAkiYA]

I mean, when not stressed, the final [a] from "ada" would fuse with the initial [a] from "anak" and the final [h] from "rumah" would connect itself to the following [i]? And is the stress pattern right here?
By the way, do you know where I could find audio samples of fast, "street" spoken Indonesian on the Net? Because everywhere I look, it seems people are trying to speak slower, more clearly, and I wanted to have contact with the language as it is spoken usually, at least to get the "feeling" of it...

Bem, mais uma vez,
Muito obrigado pela sua ajuda e pela lista de palavras, :D
XVoX.
P.S.: Just out of curiosity, where or why did you started to learn Portuguese?

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0stsee
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Oi!

Postby 0stsee » 2007-09-10, 9:36

Hej XVoX!

Take it easy. You don't need to rush answering. :)

"Di atas rumah itu ada anak laki-laki, ya?"

Be pronounced sort of like this?

[diatasrumaHItuadanaklakiLAkiYA]

You're right, but the H in rumah is unpronounced (I dare even say all final -H is unpronounced, or only weakly.

The stress falls upon the final -ki- because ya is just like a particle and is not stressed.

So I'd say:

[diatasrumaituadanaklakilaKiya]

Please notice that the two adjacent vowels are not pronounced as a diphtong. So:

[di-atasruma-itu-ada...]

I'll look what audio sources I can find.
Actually I made recordings for my flatmate (now he's fluent in Indonesian), but I used his computer.
I can't promise anything, but I'll see what I can do.

I learned Portuguese after I found out that my grandmother was Borgo, so a descendant of Portuguese. I think I was around 15 then. But I had nobody to practice with. Now I speak Spanish more fluently than Portuguese because I know several Spanish speaking people here, and I'm even friends with two of them.

You remind me that in Indonesian, Portuguese/Portugal is the only word that has two forms in Indonesian i.d. Portugis and Potugal. I believe the former is older.
Ini tandatanganku.

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0stsee
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Indonesian sound sample

Postby 0stsee » 2007-09-10, 17:36

Hej!

In this page I found a language sample of Malay which is also perfect Indonesian. In the sound file, the voice has a normal tempo, and without the glottal stops, would sound just like me when speaking.


I also just found the short thread about Portuguese loanwords.
Ini tandatanganku.

XVoX
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Joined:2007-09-09, 10:00

Postby XVoX » 2008-01-24, 5:32

Hi Mark, how are you?

I'm just passing by to thank you for all your help and apologize for my long absence from this forum: The end of the this last semester in my college was really problematic for me, so I had to take some time to sort things out before I could come back to my Indonesian studies... But soon enough, anyway, I should be back here "annoying" you with a lot more silly beginner's questions! :D

Once again, thank you very much for your kind help,
XVoX/Hudson.

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0stsee
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Hej!

Postby 0stsee » 2008-01-31, 22:36

Hey Hudson!

Aku baèk-baèk aja, makasih. ;)
Mungkin kamu ngga sadar, tapi aku sebenarnya juga udah lama ngga datang ke sini. Sejak Dèsèmber kurang lebih. Masalahnya aku sibuk sama hal-hal lain, sih.

Makasih buat salamnya!!

Kalau kamu butuh apa-apa aku siap membantu. :D

Salam,


MarK


PS:
baek = baik
aja = saja
udah = sudah
buat = untuk
ngga = tidak
makasih = terima kasih
butuh = perlu
sih = a small word, hard to translate. I'll see if I can get some explanation for that.
Ini tandatanganku.


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