NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

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Astrum
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Re: SV: Usage of "takk for sist"

Postby Astrum » 2016-12-29, 11:20

Raufoss wrote:
mmesford wrote:is it appropriate to say "takk for sist" in response to a nice note from someone you don't communicate with regularly?
According to some of my Norwegian friends it's appropriate to use "takk for sist" if you are writing to someone you have actually spent some time with and you are thanking them for the last time you spent time together. It's my understanding that it's never appropriate to use "takk for sist" with someone you have never met in person.

Jeg håper dette hjelper! :)

I agree with your Norwegian friends! :)

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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby Núria Harket » 2017-03-07, 19:01

Is the feminine gender being overlooked in the most recent manuals and language-learning apps (like Duolingo!)

Let's not forget that "ei" exists (outside Bergen at least :lol: )

http://blogs.transparent.com/norwegian/the-third-gender/

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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby ich » 2017-06-27, 9:41

I hope I post this in the right location. I am thinking that here is where I should be asking my general questions about the language? Anyways:
My question: Is there a difference between i helgen and til helgen?

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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby Johanna » 2017-06-27, 13:42

I'm not entirely sure about Norwegian, but in Swedish there is a tiny difference, although they mostly overlap. When they are separate it works like this:

Jag gör det till helgen = whatever I'm working on will be finished by the weekend

Jag gör det i helgen = I will work on whatever the project is during the weekend, and finish it then

But then again, Norwegian is usually subtly different from Swedish, and this might be one of those times.
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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby ich » 2017-07-05, 23:32

Thanks Johanna! :)

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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby Astrum » 2017-07-07, 10:07

Johanna wrote:I'm not entirely sure about Norwegian, but in Swedish there is a tiny difference, although they mostly overlap. When they are separate it works like this:

Jag gör det till helgen = whatever I'm working on will be finished by the weekend

Jag gör det i helgen = I will work on whatever the project is during the weekend, and finish it then

But then again, Norwegian is usually subtly different from Swedish, and this might be one of those times.

This is probably one of those times: Both "jeg gjør det i helgen" and "jeg gjør det til helgen" means that one will do whatever it is during the weekend (they also imply that it will be done before the weekend is over).

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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby Johanna » 2017-07-07, 18:32

Astrum wrote:
Johanna wrote:I'm not entirely sure about Norwegian, but in Swedish there is a tiny difference, although they mostly overlap. When they are separate it works like this:

Jag gör det till helgen = whatever I'm working on will be finished by the weekend

Jag gör det i helgen = I will work on whatever the project is during the weekend, and finish it then

But then again, Norwegian is usually subtly different from Swedish, and this might be one of those times.

This is probably one of those times: Both "jeg gjør det i helgen" and "jeg gjør det til helgen" means that one will do whatever it is during the weekend (they also imply that it will be done before the weekend is over).

And to make things even more complicated, "jag gör det till helgen" can mean both... Which I should have said right away.
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How to learn Norwegian tonality?

Postby langmon » 2018-11-10, 11:17

In Norwegian, there is some kind of tonality, although it isn't the same as the one of Mandarin, for example.
How to start learning it (i.e. Norwegian tonality)?

Is it true that Norwegian's spelling is more phonetic than Swedish and Danish?
And if yes, does it apply to Nynorsk as well?

As it is no secret :), there are two variants of Standard Norwegian, Bokmål and Nynorsk.
Any particular reasons for learning one of them instead of the other?
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Re: How to learn Norwegian tonality?

Postby Johanna » 2018-11-15, 0:30

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:In Norwegian, there is some kind of tonality, although it isn't the same as the one of Mandarin, for example.
How to start learning it (i.e. Norwegian tonality)?

Yes, it's called a pitch accent. It also very much depends on the accent, like where a Western dialect would drop down, an Eastern one will go up and vice-versa.

You learn it by listening to people speaking the variety you want to emulate and mimic what those native speakers do as best you can until you get a feel for it and don't have to think about it in order to get which one is used in what words.

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:Is it true that Norwegian's spelling is more phonetic than Swedish and Danish?
And if yes, does it apply to Nynorsk as well?

Not really.

First of all, orthographies are at the very best phonemic, not phonetic. A phoneme is a sound that makes a difference in meaning, for example the English words "spool," "pool" and "loose."

spool -- /spuːl/ -- [spuːɫ]
pool -- /puːl/ -- [pʰuːɫ]
loose -- /luːs/ -- [luːs]

(orthography -- phonemic representation in IPA -- phonetic representation in IPA)

No one makes a difference in writing between non-aspirated and aspirated /p/, or velarized and plain /l/, simply because those are details that depend on the environment. There may be several ways of spelling the same phoneme, but I have yet to meet an orthography that makes a difference between allophones.

In any case, this all ties into your next question:

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:As it is no secret :), there are two variants of Standard Norwegian, Bokmål and Nynorsk.
Any particular reasons for learning one of them instead of the other?

Norwegian is a language in which everyone speaks their own dialect and writes either Bokmål or Nynorsk. There is no such thing as Standard Norwegian, at all.

Which one you as a learner would want to go with depends on the dialect you're aiming for. A Southern or Western one? Nynorsk. An Eastern one? Bokmål. Don't ask me about Trøndish, Nordland or Troms...

Also, there is a lot of flexibility built into both standards and you tailor them quite a lot to your needs. For example, if you go with Bokmål, you can choose between using two genders with vestiges of a third, or all three genders fully.
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Re: How to learn Norwegian tonality?

Postby langmon » 2018-11-15, 11:34

Johanna wrote:Norwegian is a language in which everyone speaks their own dialect and writes either Bokmål or Nynorsk. There is no such thing as Standard Norwegian, at all.


Tried to make a (at least not too far-fetched) comparison to Germany's Written German, Austria's Written German, and the various dialects within those two countries.

If it would be said that within those two, everyone speaks their own dialect, and writes either in Germany's Written German or Austria's Written German, while there is no such thing as Standard German at all, I wouldn't be fully able to understand it. This is because usually, the written language would be considered the Standard one.

Could it be that... in the case of Norway, the dialects are considered as "Standard-esque" as Bokmål and Nynorsk? Like maybe saying "Haitian Creole is as Standard-esque as the French of France"?

Not an expert on this matter, far from it. It's just that I now remembered that Nynorsk, according to what I read, is the same as / is based on what at least previously, people called a dialect, like the "common people's speech" or anything like that.
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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby Johanna » 2018-11-15, 12:20

No, because in Germany and France, people are actually abandoning their traditional dialects in favor of the standard variety, especially those who go to uni. They may still speak with a regional accent but keeping the grammar and vocabulary? Nope. And in France, the southern dialects are considered a different language to boot: Occitan.

In Norway the actual dialects are very much alive and kicking, and no one considers them anything other than Norwegian. Sure, there is some evening out simply because you hear people from all over now and not just those from your own town or village, but the effect is extremely minor compared to pretty much any other country on the planet. And this extends to the most educated strata too.

And yes, Nynorsk is based on primarily Southern and Western Norwegian rural dialects, while Bokmål is based on the Norwegianified Danish that the urban middle-class spoke. The thing is, this was 150-ish years ago and that Danish morphed into Danish-influenced Norwegian a long time ago and Bokmål followed suit, so now it's pretty close to certain Eastern dialects instead. And like I said, there is a flexibility built into both standards in a way you don't really see in any other national language.

Norway is quite simply unique.
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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby Car » 2018-11-15, 13:47

Johanna wrote:In Norway the actual dialects are very much alive and kicking, and no one considers them anything other than Norwegian. Sure, there is some evening out simply because you hear people from all over now and not just those from your own town or village, but the effect is extremely minor compared to pretty much any other country on the planet. And this extends to the most educated strata too.


I think it's actually comparable to German-speaking Switzerland, except they do have one written standard only.
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby langmon » 2018-11-15, 13:56

Car wrote:
Johanna wrote:In Norway the actual dialects are very much alive and kicking, and no one considers them anything other than Norwegian. Sure, there is some evening out simply because you hear people from all over now and not just those from your own town or village, but the effect is extremely minor compared to pretty much any other country on the planet. And this extends to the most educated strata too.


I think it's actually comparable to German-speaking Switzerland, except they do have one written standard only.


So do they have several really different dialects there? If it is like this, then I wasn't aware of. To me, there was a single Schweizerdeutsch only up to now.
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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby Car » 2018-11-15, 13:56

SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:
Car wrote:
Johanna wrote:In Norway the actual dialects are very much alive and kicking, and no one considers them anything other than Norwegian. Sure, there is some evening out simply because you hear people from all over now and not just those from your own town or village, but the effect is extremely minor compared to pretty much any other country on the planet. And this extends to the most educated strata too.


I think it's actually comparable to German-speaking Switzerland, except they do have one written standard only.


So do they have several really different dialects there? If it is like this, then I wasn't aware of. To me, there was a single Schweizerdeutsch only up to now.

Yes, they very much do.
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby Johanna » 2018-11-15, 14:15

Car wrote:
Johanna wrote:In Norway the actual dialects are very much alive and kicking, and no one considers them anything other than Norwegian. Sure, there is some evening out simply because you hear people from all over now and not just those from your own town or village, but the effect is extremely minor compared to pretty much any other country on the planet. And this extends to the most educated strata too.

I think it's actually comparable to German-speaking Switzerland, except they do have one written standard only.

Yeah, that's really the only other similar example that I can think of. The difference is that its written standard is based on that of a neighboring country rather than something domestic. And like you say, there is one instead of two.
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Re: NORWEGIAN DISCUSSION // Norskdrøfting

Postby Car » 2018-11-15, 20:58

Johanna wrote:
Car wrote:
Johanna wrote:In Norway the actual dialects are very much alive and kicking, and no one considers them anything other than Norwegian. Sure, there is some evening out simply because you hear people from all over now and not just those from your own town or village, but the effect is extremely minor compared to pretty much any other country on the planet. And this extends to the most educated strata too.

I think it's actually comparable to German-speaking Switzerland, except they do have one written standard only.

Yeah, that's really the only other similar example that I can think of. The difference is that its written standard is based on that of a neighboring country rather than something domestic. And like you say, there is one instead of two.

In a way, that's true for Bokmål as well, although the differences between written Danish and Bokmål and German and Swiss Standard German are bigger, of course.
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