PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2012-02-10, 0:45

What software? You mean me? :P
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Remis » 2012-02-10, 0:47

Aleco wrote:Åssen ville dere ha uttalt ord som saueøyeier (owner of a sheep island) og erntstsk (with the characteristics of Erntst)?
Tror jeg hadde endt opp med [æɳtsk] for den siste. Når det gjelder den første er jeg ikke sikker, enten ['sævɛøɪæɪəɾ] eller ['sæʊɛøɪæɪəɾ]. Hadde kanskje kutta ut schwa'en også.
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2012-02-10, 1:02

Du hoppa jo over en t :P Nå sa jeg de orda på oslosk, da, men.
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Remis » 2012-02-10, 1:08

Jo, men jeg tror at hvis jeg skulle ha uttalt det ordet i en vanlig samtale (kan ikke sjekke, romkameraten min sover :P), så hadde jeg bare hoppa over den første /ts/-en. Hvis ikke hadde det blitt noe sånt som [æɳstəstk].
Konsonanter er noe dritt; gleder meg til jeg begynner med tysk i slutten av februar, jadda. :roll:
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2012-02-10, 1:11

Det ordet der virker vanskeligere :lol: Men alle til sitt. Måtte tenke ei stund føre jeg greide å avgjøre hva jeg vill sagt.
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby salieri » 2012-02-10, 1:12

Aleco wrote:What software? You mean me? :P


You're serious? Dude that's freakin' hilarious. :rotfl: My bad, sorry.I could have sworn that was some kind of software. :mrgreen:
Well I guess the sound quality is to be blamed for this misunderstanding.
By the way, all ære til deg. :yep: As I said before, it's really hard to pronounce that word the way you did it.

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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2012-02-10, 1:14

True, I should get a mike or something :lol:

Trust me, I needed some practice... I'm glad this isn't a normal word :roll:
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2012-02-12, 0:15

Hi,
I watched Melodi Grand Prix last night, and I would like to know if words Nora and Fredvang
have the tone1 or the tone2, I think I've heard them with the 2nd tone. :)

(I liked that Linda ''speaking'' Nynorsk too :mrgreen: )
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Remis » 2012-02-12, 4:10

TeneReef wrote:words Nora and Fredvang
have the tone1 or the tone2
I am not very good at figuring out the tones in Norwegian (maybe because I'm so used to them), so take this with a couple spoons of salt.
Going with a pinyin-y transcription, I'd say they were something akin to:
Nòrá (might as well be Nòra, actually)
Fredvàng

´ = tone 1
` = tone 2
Remis Kalvan | art / ˈfɛɪsˌbʊk | L1: [flag]no-nb[/flag] L2: [flag]en[/flag] reading short stories in: [flag]it[/flag] [flag]es[/flag]

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Of immense interest: [flag]grc[/flag] [flag]akk[/flag] [flag]egy[/flag] [flag]ar[/flag] [flag]mt[/flag] [flag]ga[/flag] [flag]eu[/flag] [flag]pl[/flag] [flag]prg[/flag] [flag]nah[/flag] [flag]qu[/flag] [flag]nv[/flag] [flag]zh.Hant[/flag]
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2012-02-12, 13:32

I heard it as [nu'ra] (well, not exactly stressed on the 2nd syllable, but with some secondary stress on the 2nd syllable)...When there is a secondary stress on the 2nd syllable (or shall I say: post-tonic), I think the tone is question is 2. :) When I can't hear any tone at all, I think the tone in question is 1.

Apparently, in East Norway, 1 is not raising, and 2 is not falling,
but 1 is low tone, and 2 is falling-rising (and it's raising at the border of the stressed and post-stressed syllable which may give me an impression of secondary stress). :)
Norwegian 2nd tone (in Eastern parts of the country) is like the 3rd tone in Mandarin.

But as for the 1st tone, there is contradictory data:
1. some say, it's a low tone (think 1st Mandarin tone, but low)
2. some say, it's a rising tone (think 2nd Mandarin tone).
In monosyllables, it's always a low tone. :)

In West Norway: 1 falling, 2 = rising
in East Norway: 1 = low; 2 falling&rising

At least I managed to guess the tones in numbers. :whistle:
But sometimes when they spoke very fast, they didn't ''pronounce'' the tones very clear. :hmm:
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2012-02-12, 18:53

No clue about the tones myself other than what I can relate to from studying Mandarin - which is exactly what Remis wrote above. However, some words are "jamvektsord," meaning that both syllables are stressed equally. This is also why most East Norway dialects have "jamvektsmål", which means that the words where this happens have certain verbs and nouns that end in -a (instead of -e).

Examples of possible jamvekstord:

være, sitte, fare, hage, Nora

This might explain why you were confused about the stress. (Even though the change of -e to -a (or keeping of -a) is found in Eastern Norway, it doesn't change the fact that they are pronounced with both syllables eqaully stressed in the West)
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2012-04-02, 12:49

Hello, how do you pronounce vowels O and E in Norwegian? :doggy:

1.
å is long close o [o:] right?
in some words o is pronounced with this sound, as in tog,
but in all other cases, O which is not pronounced as [u]
can be treated as a mid-vowel, regardless of the lenght,
as in Spanish O, or should I close the long o to [o], and open the short o to [ɔ]?

2.
In Karin's videos, the pronunciation of E's is less merged, I can hear the difference
between the short open E, and the long close E...
But sometimes, she pronounces E as æ :para:, while her er sounds like [ar] (a=low front unrounded; not as ä=low central unrounded)).

Sometimes she pronounces shwas in words with the tone 2 as full Es when she speaks slowly, exactly as described here (for Swedish): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... _Norwegian
:hmm:

3. She pronounced fint with the nasalized ɪ: fĩnt :) It's funny.
But I think the nasalization helps, otherwise you would end up with [fint] or [fɛnt].
4. Her v from av in Jeg slapper av seems silent :)
5. r + d never trigger retroflexivization? hva gjør du?

takk
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2012-04-02, 19:56

TeneReef wrote:Hello, how do you pronounce vowels O and E in Norwegian? :doggy:

1.
å is long close o [o:] right?
in some words o is pronounced with this sound, as in tog,
but in all other cases, O which is not pronounced as [u]
can be treated as a mid-vowel, regardless of the lenght,
as in Spanish O, or should I close the long o to [o], and open the short o to [ɔ]?

Your question is not easy to answer, but as a general rule, if a word had <o> in Old Norse, it's [o]/[ɔ] (long if followed single consonant (except <m>)). If a word had <ó> in Old Norse, it's [u(:)]. Of course, this is just a simplified rule, but it will help you.

[o] or [ɔ]? People tend to pronounce it as [ɔ] in a daily conversation, but [o] when stressing it.

2.
In Karin's videos, the pronunciation of E's is less merged, I can hear the difference
between the short open E, and the long close E...
But sometimes, she pronounces E as æ :para:, while her er sounds like [ar] (a=low front unrounded; not as ä=low central unrounded)).

Sometimes she pronounces shwas in words with the tone 2 as full Es when she speaks slowly, exactly as described here (for Swedish): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... _Norwegian
:hmm:

I can't remember her videos exactly, but if they're of the "repeat after me" kind, they're probably working against their intention because it will sound so bookish and strange. Link? Everything fro [a] to [æ] is realized as idiolectal/dialectal varieties of <æ> by most Norwegians. Not so weird :)

Well, she is pronouncing it slowly and Norwegians don't know anything about schwas, so she pronounces it as a short (open) <e> instead. Schwa is probably seen as a lazy pronunciation of open unstressed <e> by most.
3. She pronounced fint with the nasalized ɪ: fĩnt :) It's funny.
But I think the nasalization helps, otherwise you would end up with [fint] or [fɛnt].

A lot of people probably do this :)
4. Her v from av in Jeg slapper av seems silent :)

It's very common to skip that <v>. Eastern dialects have ta or (ut + av) which show that it's an old phenomenon.
5. r + d never trigger retroflexivization? hva gjør du?
takk

For the kind of example you gave: always. However, Norwegians do not know anything about retroflex sounds either, so clashing two consonants from two different words together is also seen as sloppy when making this kind of "repeat after me" recordings.

;)
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2012-04-04, 12:45

Do hvor, hvordan have an [o] or an [u]?

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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Remis » 2012-04-04, 16:10

[u] ;)
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2012-05-08, 11:23

Hello,
if someone could help me please: how do people from Western and Northern Norway read texts written in Bokmål aloud?
I think they might get the pronunciation right, but what about the tones? :hmm:
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2012-05-08, 16:04

They won't try to imitate the the Oslo standard :nope:

Their accents will stay the same, and sometimes they might even change a couple of vowels as they read.
E.g. reading gutter as /gʉtːɑx/ instead of /gʉtːɛx/.

Og mens jeg husker det...

Språkrådet wrote:I utgangspunktet er låt eit hankjønnsord, slik det står i Bokmålsordboka.

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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Remis » 2012-05-08, 16:34

Aleco wrote:[color=#004000]They won't try to imitate the the Oslo standard :nope:
This depends on the person, though! My mum, who speaks Finnmarking/Altaværing (a Northern dialect), will pronounce Bokmål texts in an approximation of the Western Oslo dialect.
Personally, when I'm reading conservative bokmål texts, I'll use my own idiolect. My teacher even told me off once, because I pronounced <11. september> as nine-eleven (which I realise is wrong, but it's a pretty good example. I have since started saying ellevte september when I'm speaking Norwegian though ;)).
That said, I don't know a single Norwegian who'd read a Swedish (or Danish) text and not pronounce it as his/her own dialect.
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2012-05-08, 17:00

Let's see, I have a very mixed class, consisting off the following people from outside the Eastern accented areas:
Agder: 2
Rogaland: 2
Hordaland: 1
Trøndelag: 2
Finnmark: 3

Most people are from Oslo and Akershus.

None of these would read in a Bokmål accent. Of course, these are all young, so if Remis' mom does so, maybe it's something people would often do earlier? :hmm:
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2012-05-12, 0:16

2Hammerfest (The tone information is from the Haugen's dictionary)

this is the Southeastern pronunciation, right?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... erfest.ogg

Hàmmerfést

(In Western/Northern accents it would be Hámmèrfest or Hâmmerfest
Underscore stands for low).

The monosyllables are pronounced with a rising tone in all of Norway (except around Trondheim)?
tákk, bíl, mén (are tàkk, bìl, mèn possible? :hmm: ) I'm puzzled because sometimes they say there is no tone in monosyllables, and sometimes they say monosyllables carry the 1st tone. :roll:
Or it is the same, since there is no next syllable for the voice to go up or down. :hmm:
(it's because in Northern dialects, I hear people say: tákk, mén, bíl, fantasí, persón, but sòla, bòka; it seems that the tonic accent at the end of a word [including all monosylables] favors the rising, so in Northern Norway you get bók, but bòka :roll: The end of an oxytone or monosyllable messes up with the tone, there is just no place for voice to go down [no next syllable in the word]). My dialect of Croatian has only rudimentary traces of tones :ohwell: I pronounce oxytones with a rising tone (klavír ''piano''), and all other words with a falling tone. But at least I can understand the nature of Southeastern Norwegian (not every rising of a voice means a question :P )


Mángè tákk
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