PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2011-11-29, 19:10

It seems that Norwegian a(a) has a variety of realizations even within one accent.

In Oslo accent, at times a is not a back vowel [ɑ], but a central one [ä], especially before [k] and [t]:

takk [täkk] (I have never heard it with an [ɑ]).
natt [nätt] (I have never heard it with an [ɑ]).

In these words, the a is pronounced exactly like as in Spanish/Italian/Croatian, as a central vowel. :) Before other consonants, and especially before [n] and [l] it's a very back vowel (which can sound rounded in some accents, even in East Norway :mrgreen: )
Last edited by TeneReef on 2011-11-29, 19:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2011-11-29, 19:18

Could be a way of avoiding /ʰk/ I guess :hmm: I pronounce them as /ɑ/, and I get a weak /ʰk/.
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Remis » 2011-11-29, 20:20

Aleco wrote:ar - /ɑɾ/, /ɑːɾ/
er - /æɾ/, /æːɾ/, /eːɾ/, /əɾ/ (esp. at the end of a polysyllabic word)
ir - /ɪɾ/, /iːɾ/
or - /oɾ/, /uːɾ/
ur - /uɾ/, /uːɾ/
yr - /yʷːɾ/, /ʏʷɾ/
ær - /æːɾ/
ør - /øːɾ/, /œɾ/
år - /ɔːɾ/

(in Oslo)

Isn't /ɾ/ the English <r>? I thought the Norwegian one was /r/ (but realised as [ɾ] at times, like in <urt>).
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2011-11-29, 22:20

Yeah, but r symbol is broad transcription. :wink:
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2011-11-29, 23:04

[ɾ] er vanlig norsk i ord som bare eller lære. Det er en r der du klakker tunga opp i ganen, men den rulles ikke. Som t.d. t-en (ikke r-en) i amerikanske water :)
[r] er en sånn r som du hører i de aller fleste, om ikke alle, slaviske språk, eller italiensk. Om du tenker etter, har du kanskje lagt merke til at østeuropeere som snakker norsk ofte har en litt overdreven r-lyd.
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2011-12-04, 11:02

(It's better to say it's like Spanish/Italian intervocalic r; American tap t is a bit different, but since there is no phonemic contrast between the tap t and a d in American English (and there is no [ɾ] phoneme), they say it's the same, but American Betty (tap t) ['bɛt̬i]does not sound like the real alveolar r: Scotch pronunciation of berry ['bɛɾi]; [t̬] may sound like a [d] to Italians and Norwegians; Americans who think American flap t is a [ɾ], sound like they pronounce amade instead of amare :P Scottish r is more like Norwegian r (except in Southwestern Norway where they use the French r, but one that is much softer than the Édith Piaf one)).

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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2011-12-04, 13:39

True, but most Norwegians pronounce the typical intervocalic American English t/d as an alveolar flap ;) I wouldn't want it to be mixed up with, what sounds to us, the overly rolled R in e.g. Italian and most Slavic languages. :wink:

Oh, by the way, we had to try some linguistic tests at school the other day, and I realized my vowels are quite different from what I though ... I knew it was different, but didn't think too much of it.

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/ɑː/ = /ɒː/
/æ/ = /a/
/eː/ = /jeː/ ~ /ieː/ (this is what a long /e/ has always sounded to me ...)
/œ/ = /ə/ ( :shock: )
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2011-12-04, 19:26

Spanish, Italian, Croatian have two r's: [r] (Roma, prst) and [ɾ] (aroma) ;)
Oh, Oslo Norwegian has two r's too ([ɾ] and the American one (allophone of l) :P, but I'm not at a level advanced enough to use it :? ).
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2011-12-04, 19:33

Aleco wrote:True, but most Norwegians pronounce the typical intervocalic American English t/d as an alveolar flap ;) I wouldn't want it to be mixed up with, what sounds to us, the overly rolled R in e.g. Italian and most Slavic languages. :wink:

Oh, by the way, we had to try some linguistic tests at school the other day, and I realized my vowels are quite different from what I though ... I knew it was different, but didn't think too much of it.

Oslo Norwegian - Where I live
/ɑː/ = /ɒː/
/æ/ = /a/
/eː/ = /jeː/ ~ /ieː/ (this is what a long /e/ has always sounded to me ...)
/œ/ = /ə/ ( :shock: )


Oh, I do hear jeg, meg with [ai] in some female Norwegian singers (Dina, S. L. Haugen). So, it does not completely rhyme with -ei (which rarely get his pronunciation).
It's never [ɑi] though (the way Pakistani immigrants pronounce it). I've never heard men with this pronunciation either.

But it's complicated, in Californian, Californian English and RP /æ/ has been shifting [æ] from to [a], so many Oxford dictionaries use [a] for /æ/: http://oxforddictionaries.com/definitio ... _gb0128530 (It's called Upton system or Upton RP)

We need a special symbol for the sound halfway between æ and a. :D
And a special symbol for the vowel between the central [ä] and fully back [ɑ] too! :mrgreen:
Swedish people pronounce drum as [dräm] (which sounds so Australian :mrgreen: ), with their central low vowel, Norwegians pronounce it more like Norwegian drøm (like the French), and those with unrounded central midlow/midhigh ø are pretty close to Midwestern US pronunciation of drum.

I hear this ø as an [e] :P :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Tromso.ogg

It's a bit too open. :P
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2011-12-04, 20:41

TeneReef wrote:Spanish, Italian, Croatian have two r's: [r] (Roma, prst) and [ɾ] (aroma) ;)
Oh, Oslo Norwegian has two r's too ([ɾ] and the American one (allophone of l) :P, but I'm not at a level advanced enough to use it :? ).

But we think of the [r] when referring to them ;) It's all about popular (mic)conception.
I don't see how [ɽ] and the American R, whatever the IPA for that may be, are the same, though :P I came back home to Norway after having lived in the US with an American R for [ɽ] as an allophone after long vowels, but everyone could hear how weird it sounded and pointed it out to me. I had merged the two sounds, since they are similar, but at the same time quite different because the American R is sort of a super lazy [ɽ].

As for your second post, I am afraid I'm not too knowledgeable to give any good comments, but I do have to agree that Swedish /œ/ are much more open than ours. Wouldn't the central vowel of /a/ be /ɑ/, though? :hmm:
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2011-12-05, 6:11

When Norwegians go to Sweden (and vice versa), for a visit, do they speak in English, or you use your own languages? :P When I go to Slovenia, it's weird, if I talk to them in Croatian they may feel the need to respond me in Croatian (which is not really needed because I understand Slovenian fine), but using English is even weirder. :para:

Some people say Norwegian sounds like Flemish, what do you think? :P
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Johanna » 2011-12-05, 9:35

Swedes usually use Swedish with Norwegians and they Norwegian with us, but many of their dialects can cause it bit of a problem so often they have to use words and word forms that are closer to Swedish than they would normally do.

But that happens within Sweden as well, at least for those of us who can still speak a genuine dialect, with outsiders you don't use it, you use the regional variant of Standard Swedish. At least if you're young enough to be able to switch, there are middle-aged and old people who've never gained that ability.
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2011-12-05, 11:37

^ What she said.

As for Denmark, it's about 50/50. If they could only pronounce things properly :lol:

Norwegian sounds closer to Flemish than Dutch, but ...
I mean, I can hear German far away, and think it's Danish, but they don't really sound alike :roll:
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Johanna » 2011-12-05, 12:12

Aleco wrote:As for Denmark, it's about 50/50. If they could only pronounce things properly :lol:

I have been able to use Swedish with Danes most of the time, but when I was at Kastrup this summer it was *beep* impossible. Really good idea to talk really fast and skip half the words when you work at the biggest airport in Scandinavia, where lots and lots of Swedes and Norwegian have to change flights :roll: It also happens to be the closest international airport to one of the most densely populated areas in Sweden, which means that it's only Arlanda, outside of Stockholm, that sees more Swedish travellers.

Yes, I resorted to English.

Restaurants and shops in Fredrikshavn and Copenhagen have never been a problem though, sometimes I've asked them to slow down or repeat something a bit more clearly, but then they did so without a fuzz, instead of either ignoring that request, or repeating it in exactly the same way as before.
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby TeneReef » 2012-01-10, 8:11

I have a question on tones in monosyllables...sometimes they say these words have no tone,
sometimes they say they always carry the 1st tone (1: rising in nonWestern Norway)...Is it okay to pronounce them like this, with the tone 1...I think they have a tone, but not a contrasting one. :hmm:
I suppose the tone is the same in ku and kua. :)

(although kua will have a secondary stress-like accentuation on a as well: 1''ku.'a
because I think the tone is carried onto the beginning of the 2nd syllable :) )
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2012-01-10, 13:17

Not sure about the specifics of Norwegian tones... I can only compare them to Chinese tones :lol: (in which cases kua would be kúà.)
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby hlysnan » 2012-01-23, 5:54

A couple of questions:
Is there a difference in pronunciation between "òg" and "og"?
How do you pronounce "viskelêr" and is there a reason for that "ê"?

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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2012-01-23, 8:37

hlysnan wrote:A couple of questions:
Is there a difference in pronunciation between "òg" and "og"?
How do you pronounce "viskelêr" and is there a reason for that "ê"?

Òg is always stressed, and thus most likely /ɔː/. Og tends to just be pronounced /o/.

/ˈʋɪskəlæːɾ/. The <êr> combination represents Old Norse <eðr> (like English leather and weather) and it's there because it traditionally had an accent as if there were two syllables (like those English words still retain), but these days you don't need a different pronunciation for ver (be!) and vêr (weather/capricorn).
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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby hlysnan » 2012-01-23, 10:10

Interesting! Takk, Aleco! :)

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Re: PRONUNCIATION // Uttale

Postby Aleco » 2012-01-23, 15:39

Bare hyggelig ;)

Til dykk andre norske: Wikipedia-sida om norsk ljodlære synst eg verkar litt merkeleg. Heilt nedst under konsonantar og òg øvst under vokalar står det at gin uttalast /dʒɪn/ og teip som /tʰɛjp/.

Eg har allitd høyrt /dʃɪn/ or /tʰæjp/ (sistnemnde høyrest læt berre nordnorsk).
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