Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Патрислав Андреевич

Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2013-09-21, 21:45

Ѯэна wrote:In the same manner: We don't need cyrillic letters. Poles write <s>, not <с>...
The <ѯ> is equivalent of historical <x>. Poles more and more often use the "x" in 21th century. It is present in new names, in names of companies. Poles also more often write "xero", "index", "Xymena", "expresowe" instead of "ksero" (means: a photocopy), "indeks", "Ksymena" (name: Ximen), "ekspresowe". If you want shorten "rz" to <ж>, why do you not want to short "ks" to <ѯ>?

The name "Xymena" is currently more and more written by "X" instead of "Ks". It was written by "X" in the past. Poles like short forms... Why Poles return to "X" in names now? Because the polish law hasn't denied "X" in names since 2008. I also returned to "X" in my name (also in identity card), it is more easy for foreigners and for me.


I don't know of anyone writing 'x' instead of 'ks' in Polish words. I would probably choke if I saw some of them written the way you did. :lol: I think 'xero,' etc. were used much more often before, when they were still considered to be foreign. And since they have been around for so long already, it's more natural to write 'ksero,' etc. I also haven't heard of any single person (besides foreigners) whose name would contain 'x'... Although using this letter in company names is common now, yes; but not because it was a part of Polish language (few people know it..), but because of it looking more "Western," which, for me, is pretty pathetic. :roll:

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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby mōdgethanc » 2013-09-22, 5:31

Ѯэна wrote:If you want shorten "rz" to <ж>, why do you not want to short "ks" to <ѯ>?

In the past, Poles used "x" instead "ks". The "x" was removed in 19th century.
You just answered your own question. I already said that you need the yuses because you need a way to write nasal vowels, and they're the most logical choice. I don't see a point in bringing back historical or etymological spellings just for the hell of it. The reason for "shortening" <rz> isn't to make it shorter, but because there is no distinction between it and <ż> in speech.
Poles like short forms
No they don't, since they use many digraphs where Czech and Slovak use letters with diacritics. (Or szcz - four letters where Ukrainian uses one!)

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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby Ѯэна » 2013-09-25, 17:22

xivrox wrote:I don't know of anyone writing 'x' instead of 'ks' in Polish words. I would probably choke if I saw some of them written the way you did. :lol: I think 'xero,' etc. were used much more often before, when they were still considered to be foreign. And since they have been around for so long already, it's more natural to write 'ksero,' etc. I also haven't heard of any single person (besides foreigners) whose name would contain 'x'... Although using this letter in company names is common now, yes; but not because it was a part of Polish language (few people know it..), but because of it looking more "Western," which, for me, is pretty pathetic. :roll:


Yes? Please!
Polish people named Xymena:
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xymena_Zaniewska
http://www.fil.ug.edu.pl/upload/files/1 ... xymena.pdf
http://pl.linkedin.com/pub/xymena-pietr ... 51/47a/2b4
http://www.goldenline.pl/xymena-debska/
http://www.fil.ug.edu.pl/upload/files/1 ... xymena.pdf

Polish people named Xawery:
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xawery_%C5%BBu%C5%82awski
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xawery_Czernicki
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xawery_Dunikowski

expresowe...
look at title bar of browser window: http://www.siodemka.com/
http://salondorothy.pl/sites/default/fi ... i-1_01.jpg

Please, choke yourself now. Do it! (-;

Патрислав Андреевич

Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2013-09-27, 17:11


I only said I haven't heard of anyone with such name, which didn't mean they don't exist. It's not very popular though and looks archaic. Wikipedia ( :lol: ) agrees with me: "Oboczna, bardziej archaiczna pisownia – Xawery."

Ѯэна wrote:expresowe...
look at title bar of browser window: http://www.siodemka.com/
http://salondorothy.pl/sites/default/fi ... i-1_01.jpg

About this... Thank you for showing me that. It won't change what I think though, it looks ugly in Polish, it's foreign, and I don't like it being used in words that have widely accepted Polish-spelled words. And it's not allowed in scrabble. It's a perfect reason not to use it. :lol:

Ѯэна wrote:Please, choke yourself now. Do it! (-;

No need for that.

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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby Ѯэна » 2013-09-28, 17:30

xivrox wrote:
Ѯэна wrote:Please, choke yourself now. Do it! (-;

No need for that.

It's not about needs, it's about pleasure.

BTW. Yuses are more archaic in cyrillic alphabet than "X" in polish alphabet.
Do you speak Polish?

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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby Ѯэна » 2013-09-28, 17:55

Xivrox (lub: Ksiwroks): Тож то шьвѩтокрадзтво розмавячь по ангелску о полскей цырылицы помѩдзы полаками бѧдѫц полакем. Полацы не гѧши, сву́й ѩзык маѭ.

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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby Qrczak » 2013-12-27, 16:25

My etymologic Cyrillic script for Polish consists of 46 letters:

А аa
Б бb / b´
В вw / w´
Г гg
Ғ ғh
Д дd / dź
Е е(j)e
Ж жż
З зz
Ѕ ѕdz
И иi
Ѝ ѝy
І і(j)i
І̀ і̀(j)y
Ј ј´
Й йj
К кk
Л лł / l
М мm / m´
Н нn / ń
О оo
О́ о́ó
Ө ө(j)o
Ө́ ө́(j)ó
П пp / p´
Р рr / rz
С сs / ś
Т тt / ć
У уu
Ў ў — consonantal u
Ф фf / f´
Х хch
Ц цc
Ч чcz
Џ џ
Ш шsz
Ъ ъ
Ь ь
Э эe
Э̀ э̀e
Ю ю(j)u
Я я(j)a
Ѧ ѧ(j)ę
Ѧ́ ѧ́(j)ą
Ѫ ѫę
Ѫ́ ѫ́ą

Vowels are classified as:
• hard: а, э, э̀, ѫ, ѫ́, о, о́, и, ѝ, у
• soft: я, е, ѧ, ѧ́, ө, ө́, і, і̀, ю

Consonants are classified as:
• hard-soft: п, б, ф, в, м, т, д, с, з, н, р, л
• always hard: ў, к, г, х, ғ
• always soft: ц, ч, ѕ, џ, ш, ж
й

Besides vowels and consonants, there are letters ъ, ь, ј explained below.

Supplemental soft consonants, used mostly for loanwords, are written with ј: тј, дј, сј, зј, рј, рьј, лј, льј, кј, цј, чј, гј, ѕј, џј, хј, шј, ғј, жј (some of them do not occur in practice, and most of them occur almost exclusively before і).
They belong to always soft consonants.

After an always hard consonant there can be only hard vowels.
After an always soft consonant there can be only soft vowels.
After a hard-soft consonant there can be hard or soft vowels.

Hard-soft consonants are pronounced as soft before soft vowels and before ь.
Soft vowels are pronounced without j- after a consonant except й.

и is pronounced y after hard-soft consonants and after х, ғ.
і is pronounced y after always soft consonants except for supplemental soft consonants, and after р.

In order to write y where и, і are pronounced i, one writes ѝ, і̀. These letters are extremely rare.

Sequences кэ, гэ are pronounced kie, gie.
In order to write ke, ge, one writes кэ̀, гэ̀.

In the following cases letters must be separated:
• between a consonant and a following vowel, at a morpheme boundary;
• between a consonant and a following j.
The separator is ъ after an always hard consonant or a hard-soft consonant pronounced as hard, ь after an always soft consonant or a hard-soft consonant pronounced as soft. After й a separator is not needed.

Some additional rules explained at https://sites.google.com/site/qrczakmk/sylabica are in effect. They are not stated here in details.

Example:

За чясо́в Ғэрода, кро́ля Юдэи, жіл пэвен каплан, именем Захаръяш, з оддялу Абьяшя. Мял он жөнѫ з роду Аарона, а на имѧ било ей Эльжбета. Обое билі справедліві въобэц Бога и постѫповалі ненаганне вэдлуг вшістких пріказань и препісо́в Паньских. Не мелі еднак децка, поневаж Эльжбета била неплодна; обое зась билі юж посунѧті в лятах.

Кэди в визначөнэй для свэго оддялу колеі пэлніл службѫ капланьскѫ́ пред Богэм, ему згодне зэ звичяем капланьским пріпадл лөс, жеби вэйсьть до прібитку Паньскэго и зложіть офярѫ каѕеня. А цяли люд модліл сѧ на зэвнѫ́трь в чясе каѕеня. Нараз указал му сѧ аньөл Паньски, стоѧ́ці по правэй строне олтаря каѕеня. Преразіл сѧ на тэн відок Захаръяш и страх падл на него. Леч аньөл рекл до него: «Не бо́й сѧ Захаръяшю! Твоя просьба зъостала вислухана: жөна твоя Эльжбета уроді ті сина, кто́рэму надаш имѧ Ян. Бѫде то для тебе радосьть и вэсэле; и велю з его нароѕеня тешіть сѧ бѫде. Бѫде бовем вельки в очях Пана; віна и сицери піть не бѫде и юж в лоне матки напэлнөни бѫде Духэм Сьвѧтим. Велю спосьро́д сино́в Израэля навро́ті до Пана, Бога іх; он сам по́йде пред Нім в духу и моці Эльяшя, жеби сэрця ойцө́в наклоніть ку детөм, а непослушних — до успособеня справедлівих, би пріготовать Пану люд досконали». На то рекл Захаръяш до аньөла: «По чім то познам? Бо я естэм юж стари и моя жөна ест в подэшлим веку». Одповедял му аньөл: «Я естэм Габръель, кто́ри стоѧ пред Богэм. А зъосталэм послани, аби мо́віть з тобѫ́ и ознайміть ті тѫ весьть радоснѫ́. А ото бѫдеш неми и не бѫдеш мо́гл мо́віть аж до дня, в кто́рим сѧ то стане, бо не уверілэсь моім словом, кто́рэ сѧ спэлнѧ́ в своім чясе».

Люд тимчясэм чекал на Захаръяшя и дівіл сѧ, же так длуго затрімуе сѧ в прібитку. Кэди вишедл, не мо́гл до ніх мо́віть, и зрозумелі, же мял віѕене в прібитку. Он зась давал ім знаки и позъостал неми. А гди уплинѫли дні его послуги капланьскэй, повро́тіл до свэго дому.

Потэм жөна его, Эльжбета, почѧла и позъоставала в укритю през пѧть месѧці. «Так учініл мі Пан — мо́віла — въо́вчяс, кэди вэйрял ласкаве и здъѧ́л зэ мне ғаньбѫ в очях люді».

Патрислав Андреевич

Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby Патрислав Андреевич » 2014-10-28, 1:48

Не мам абсолютнэго поѩтя длячего, але захтяло мі сѩ цонецо напісать польскѫ цириліцѫ і пріпомнялем собе о тим тэмате. Алфабэт тэн ест по просту пѩкни. Не означя то очівісьте, же хтялбим, би зостал он алфабэтэм офіцяльним паньства польскего. Латінка дае радѧ. Ході рачей о самѫ пріемнощь плинѫцѫ з пісаня і чітаня ѩзика польскего в цириліци. Та вэрсиа, з ктѹрэй корістам не ест нічим щэгѹльним, от звикла гражданка прістосована до потреб ѩзика польскего.

Позвѹльте, же прелітэруѩ ту трэщь еднэго з артикулѹв на польскоѩзичнэй вікіпэдиі. З чістэго пріпадку бѧде то артикул о цириліци.

Цириліца - пісмо алфабэтичнэ служѫцэ до запісу ѩзикѹв всходнёсловяньскіх, вѩкшёщі полуднёвословяньскіх і інних. Назва навѭзуе до апостола Словян - сьв. Цириля, ктѹри вспѹльне зе сьв. Мэтодим, провадзѫц місиѧ велькоморавскѫ всьрѹд Словян запісал і впроваділ до літургиі ѩзик словяньскі. До запісу тэго ѩзика зостали створёнэ два алфабэти - глаголіца і пѹзьней цириліца (пісмо упрощонэ на базе дужего алфабэту грэцкего - маюскули ораз глаголіци, з ктѹрэй зостали пренесёнэ нектѹрэ літэри).

Ораз може ещэ едэн, а цо! Также з польскей Вікіпэдиі:

Гражданка (рос. скрѹт одпрімётнікови од гражданский шрифт, те. пісмо сьвецке) - збліжона до форм антикви латиньскей графічна одмяна цириліци, опрацована і впровадзона за часѹв Пётра Велькего в лятах 1708-1711.

Первотне доконано тилько модифікаціі кшталту літэр і заховано в гражданцэ вшистке літэри належѭце до цириліци. Еднакже шерше стосоване гражданкі показало, же засѹб літэр не в пелні надае сѩ до запісу тэкстѹв росийскіх, поневаж цириліца первотне служила до запісу тэкстѹв в ѩзику цэркевнословяньскім. Длятэго тэж в тѭгу XVII в. доконивано настѧпуѭцих змян:
  • усунѩто літэри означяѭцэ глоскі вистѩпуѭцэ первотне в ѩзику цэркевнословяньскім, а невистѧпуѭцэ в ѩзику росийскім — нп. знакі самоглосэк носових, вимавяних юж од давна яко 'у' (давнэ 'ѫ') і 'а' (давнэ 'ѧ'), запісиванэ били в тэкстах цэркевнословяньскіх юсамі, ктѹрэ дублёвали сѩ зе знакамі і двузнакамі на 'у', 'а', 'ю' і 'я';
  • усунѩто літэри (нп. омэга і дзэлё) нестосованэ юж до запісу слѹв, а тилько до традицийнэго запісу лічб (в ѩзику старо-цэркевно-словяньскім лічби запісивано з грэцка, пішѭц обок себе літэри, з ктѹрих каждэй пріпісивано окрэсьлёнѫ вартощь лічбовѫ — сума тих вартощі означала запісанѫ лічбѧ; над первшѭ і остатнѭ літэрѫ так представёнэй лічби пісано знак титло подобни графічне до тильди);
  • додано новэ літэри ('э' і обэцна постать 'я' зостали впровадзонэ в 1710, 'й' в 1735, а 'ё' в 1797), аби пісовня лепей оддавала вимовѧ.

Мам надеѩ, же не попэлнілем збит велю блѧдѹв прі транслітэраціі, то не ест аж таке латвэ, помімо дощь добрэго обэзнаня з цириліцѫ.

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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby Thooomas128 » 2015-03-23, 17:46

A oto moja polska cyrylica :
This is my polish Cyrillic :
Aa - Аа
Ąą - Ѫѫ
Bb - Бб
Cc - Цц
Ćć - Ть ть
Dd - Дд
Ee - Ee
Ęę - Ęę
Ff - Фф
Gg - Ґґ
Hh - Гг
Ii (miękkie) - Ии
Ii (twarde np. Sinus i na początku wyrazu i zawsze po џ ,ѕ,ц,ж,ч,ш,р,щ,pˇ) - Іі
Jj - Jȷ
Ll - Ль ль
Łł - Лл
Mm - Мм
Nn - Нн
Ńń - Нь нь
Oo - Оо
Óó - Ôô
Pp - Пп
Rr - Рр
Ss - Сс
Śś - Сь сь
Tt - Тт
Uu - Уу
Ww - Вв
Yy - Ы ы ,Ии(zawsze po џ ,ѕ,ц,ж,ч,ш,р,щ,pˇ)
Zz - Зз
Żż - Жж
Źź - Зь зь
Ja/ia - Ѣѣ
Ju/iu - Юю
Je/ie - Єє
Jo /io- Є̈є̈
Ji/ii- Її
Ją /ią- Ѧѧ
Ję/ię - Я я
Jó/ ió- Јô (na początku wyrazu i po samogłosce) , ьô (po spółgłosce miękkiej)
Cz - Чч
Ch - Хх
Sz - Шш
Rz - Рˇpˇ
Dz - Ѕѕ
Dż - Џџ
Dź - Дь дь
Szcz - Щщ
ь-znak miękki
ъ-znak twardy zawsze na końcu wyrazów zakończonych spółgłoską oprócz ȷ i spółgłosek zawsze twardych (ц,ч,ж,р,щ,ш,џ,ѕ,pˇ)

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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby simon_g » 2015-12-21, 14:15

1. There was already a project of replacing Polish alphabet with a Cyrylic one https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrylica#Polska_cyrylica I don't think I have to add how it has finished.

2. Even if people (by god knows what reasons) would like to introduce it somehow, the one proposed in this topic wouldn't be a best idea: difference between "Ch" and "h" are for native speakers (apart from those who study the history of Polish language) is non-existing, using separate letters for the same sound like rz/ż and u/ó is plainly stupid.

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Re: Пољска цириљіца / Polska cyrylica

Postby pittmirg » 2015-12-27, 13:08

simon_g wrote:1. There was already a project of replacing Polish alphabet with a Cyrylic one https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrylica#Polska_cyrylica I don't think I have to add how it has finished.


I'm pretty sure the tsarist orthography was already mentioned in this thread. Also, the ogoneks, ugh!

2. Even if people (by god knows what reasons) would like to introduce it somehow, the one proposed in this topic wouldn't be a best idea: difference between "Ch" and "h" are for native speakers (apart from those who study the history of Polish language) is non-existing, using separate letters for the same sound like rz/ż and u/ó is plainly stupid.


Not like you can speak Polish without knowing if the words you're saying came from Old Czech, eh?
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