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Re: How to deal with Polish Consonant Clusters?

Posted: 2018-11-10, 10:20
by księżycowy
Don't go near any Kartvelian or Salishan language then. :P

At any rate, I can't claim to be an expert in Polish, but I'll try to help.

What do you find difficult about the consonant clusters?

Re: How to deal with Polish Consonant Clusters?

Posted: 2018-11-10, 10:21
by langmon
księżycowy wrote:Don't go near any Kartvelian or Salishan language then. :P

At any rate, I can't claim to be an expert in Polish, but I'll try to help.

What do you find difficult about the consonant clusters?


Well... pronouncing them isn't that difficult. We also have three consonants in a row in German, as in "Straße" (street). But remembering those words them isn't that easy for me.

Re: How to deal with Polish Consonant Clusters?

Posted: 2018-11-10, 10:27
by księżycowy
Well, unfortunately there's no magic solution for that. You just have to play around with learning methods and see what works.

For a while I was doing rote memorization myself, but I stopped doing it because it was a pain in the ass (even if quite effective for certain purposes). I'm still finding my stride without it, so I really don't have any advice at the moment.

Re: Polski Kącik / Polish Corner / Angolo Polacco

Posted: 2018-11-10, 11:58
by langmon
Exceptionally linking to a question outside of this thread:

How to deal with Polish Consonant Clusters?
https://forum.unilang.org/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=56185

Now why do I link to that question here? It is just because today morning, I posted a lot of questions in some specific language subforums, those subforums were something like 15 or 20 even... Then I was told by a moderator that usually there is a generic thread within each of them which could be a better place to ask questions. After knowing that, I deleted most of my (zero-reply) question posts and re-posted them in the generic threads. This one I am linking to right now is one of the very few I didn't delete, I also couldn't even have done so after there already was a reply :).

Re: How to deal with Polish Consonant Clusters?

Posted: 2018-11-10, 14:52
by langmon
księżycowy wrote:For a while I was doing rote memorization myself, but I stopped doing it because it was a pain in the ass (even if quite effective for certain purposes).

What are the purposes that rote memorization can be quite effective for?
(As for me, I currently am able to recall a few only, like knowing "2 * 2 = 4").

księżycowy wrote:I'm still finding my stride without it, so I really don't have any advice at the moment.


At least that is a honest answer.

Re: How to deal with Polish Consonant Clusters?

Posted: 2018-11-10, 16:54
by księżycowy
Rote memorization worked quite well for me when I was reading languages such as Greek and Hebrew during my courses at my graduate school. I find it can be helpful for recognition at least.

Re: How to deal with Polish Consonant Clusters?

Posted: 2018-11-10, 17:42
by langmon
księżycowy wrote:Rote memorization worked quite well for me when I was reading languages such as Greek and Hebrew during my courses at my graduate school. I find it can be helpful for recognition at least.


Recognition = passive understanding?
Or recognition = remembering that one knew the word's meaning before, while not even recalling it passively?

Re: How to deal with Polish Consonant Clusters?

Posted: 2018-11-10, 17:51
by pittmirg
Often words with those clusters have 'siblings' where they're split by a vowel (ultimately this is due to phenomena such as PIE ablaut and the dropping of certain Proto-Slavic vowels), e.g. krew 'blood' and krwawy 'bloody', drgać 'vibrate' and podrygiwać 'gambol', drwa 'firewood', drewno 'wood, timber' and drzewo 'tree'. Maybe researching such word families could help?

Re: How to deal with Polish Consonant Clusters?

Posted: 2018-11-10, 17:58
by księżycowy
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:Recognition = passive understanding?
Or recognition = remembering that one knew the word's meaning before, while not even recalling it passively?

Recognition as in I can deal with it when I come across it (in writing), but can't necessarily recall it when I want to form a sentence.

Re: How to deal with Polish Consonant Clusters?

Posted: 2018-11-10, 18:00
by langmon
pittmirg wrote:Often words with those clusters have 'siblings' where they're split by a vowel (ultimately this is due to phenomena such as PIE ablaut and the dropping of certain Proto-Slavic vowels), e.g. krew 'blood' and krwawy 'bloody', drgać 'vibrate' and podrygiwać 'gambol', drwa 'firewood', drewno 'wood, timber' and drzewo 'tree'. Maybe researching such word families could help?


Well, I possibly could. But I am not ashamed to admit :) that I only have a partial understanding on what has been just said to me. I couldn't even specify what exactly I understood and what I didn't, because while I know all of these words (other than the examples), I am not currently able to understand all of them in combination.

Re: How to deal with Polish Consonant Clusters?

Posted: 2018-11-10, 18:03
by langmon
księżycowy wrote:
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:Recognition = passive understanding?
Or recognition = remembering that one knew the word's meaning before, while not even recalling it passively?

Recognition as in I can deal with it when I come across it (in writing), but can't necessarily recall it when I want to form a sentence.


Now I am sure of what you meant. And yes, rote memorization can help with something like this. While I don't use it myself, I also don't apply the "It is Either Black or White But Nothing in Between" pattern to it (in case what I just wrote is being understood :) ).

Re: How to deal with Polish Consonant Clusters?

Posted: 2018-11-10, 18:19
by pittmirg
SomehowGeekyPolyglot wrote:
pittmirg wrote:Often words with those clusters have 'siblings' where they're split by a vowel (ultimately this is due to phenomena such as PIE ablaut and the dropping of certain Proto-Slavic vowels), e.g. krew 'blood' and krwawy 'bloody', drgać 'vibrate' and podrygiwać 'gambol', drwa 'firewood', drewno 'wood, timber' and drzewo 'tree'. Maybe researching such word families could help?


Well, I possibly could. But I am not ashamed to admit :) that I only have a partial understanding on what has been just said to me. I couldn't even specify what exactly I understood and what I didn't, because while I know all of these words (other than the examples), I am not currently able to understand all of them in combination.


Basically you could try grabbing a dictionary (you could use e.g. Brücker's etymological dictionary of Polish as he lists word families in many cases) and finding as many related words as possible. This way you would perhaps stop seeing the clusters as random and remember them better. Also try to find out how the words are built. Many clusters are composed of two morphemes, e.g. in wnieść w- is a prefix meaning 'into'.

Re: How to deal with Polish Consonant Clusters?

Posted: 2018-11-10, 18:25
by langmon
pittmirg wrote:Basically you could try grabbing a dictionary (you could use e.g. Brücker's etymological dictionary of Polish as he lists word families in many cases) and finding as many related words as possible. This way you would perhaps stop seeing the clusters as random and remember them better. Also try to find out how the words are built. Many clusters are composed of two morphemes, e.g. in wnieść w- is a prefix meaning 'into'.


Polished Polish Puzzle Parts.

Re: Polski Kącik / Polish Corner / Angolo Polacco

Posted: 2018-11-25, 13:38
by voron
A nice video about Belarus:
https://youtu.be/6FFTguIQd18