Polish Study Group

księżycowy
Re: Polish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-11-01, 18:14

Could be. I just don't know yet. :P

The lesson only went over attributive adjectives.

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Re: Polish Study Group

Postby linguoboy » 2018-11-01, 18:17

księżycowy wrote:Could be. I just don't know yet. :P

The lesson only went over attributive adjectives.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_grammar#Adjective_syntax

Predicate adjectives agree with the relevant noun in gender and number, and are in the nominative case, unless the subject is unspecified (as in some infinitive phrases), in which case the adjective takes the (masculine/neuter) instrumental form (for example, być mądrym, "to be wise", although the nominative is used if the logical subject is specified). The instrumental is also used for adjectival complements of some other verbs, as in czynić go mądrym ("make him wise").
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: Polish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-11-01, 19:03

Dzięki!

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Re: Polish Study Group

Postby h34 » 2018-11-01, 20:11

księżycowy wrote:Ten głupi student jest szowinista. […] Kiczowate krzesło jest stary.

I might be wrong but shouldn't szowinista be in the instrumental case (i.e. szowinistą)? Also, I would have thought that stary should be replaced by stare, as krzesło is neuter gender.

księżycowy

Re: Polish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-11-01, 20:18

h34 wrote:I might be wrong but shouldn't szowinista be in the instrumental case (i.e. szowinistą)?

No idea, honestly. Maybe a native will stop by and help out.

Also, I would have thought that stary should be replaced by stare, as krzesło is neuter gender.

I must have missed that one. Dzięki!

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Re: Polish Study Group

Postby h34 » 2018-11-01, 20:22

Nie ma za co!
I've just come across this:
https://mowicpopolsku.com/polish-grammar/cases/instrumental/

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Re: Polish Study Group

Postby linguoboy » 2018-11-01, 20:48

h34 wrote:
księżycowy wrote:Ten głupi student jest szowinista. […] Kiczowate krzesło jest stary.

I might be wrong but shouldn't szowinista be in the instrumental case (i.e. szowinistą)?

It's been a while since I did Swan's course myself, but that's my recollection as well.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

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Re: Polish Study Group

Postby silmeth » 2018-11-01, 21:24

księżycowy wrote:
h34 wrote:I might be wrong but shouldn't szowinista be in the instrumental case (i.e. szowinistą)?

No idea, honestly. Maybe a native will stop by and help out.


Yes. It should be instrumental. Polish uses the copular verb in two different ways, pretty analogous to how Irish differentiates between the copula is and the verb bí, táim.

When you would use is in Irish – classificatory sentences and equating two nouns, eg. the student is a chauvinist or a cat is an animal or that woman is the doctor, I am a Pole, Polish uses instrumental: student jest szowinistą, kot jest zwierzęciem, tamta kobieta jest (tym) lekarzem, jestem Polakiem.

When you would use in Irish – in describing something with adjectives – Polish uses nominative, so:
on jest duży ‘he is big’
ona jest ładna ‘she is pretty’
kot jest wredny ‘the cat is mean’

Basically you use instrumental when answering a question ‘what / who is he/she/it?’ and you use nominative when answering ‘what is he/she/it like?'.

And similarly to Irish, this is the most natural way of forming these types of sentences, but it is not a hard rule, and just as in Irish you can find sentences like is briste mo chroí (instead of tá mo chroí briste), you may find jestem wielkim, on jest stary dziad etc. in Polish literature – sometimes it looks archaic, sometimes satirical or sarcastic, depending on context. But those are exceptions not to be found in day-to-day speech.

EDIT: one exception are sentences with the pronoun to, the ones that translate into English as this is… and that is…, they use exclusively nominative (and they often omit the verb): to jest nasz lekarz ‘this is our doctor’, to (jest) szowinista ‘that one/he is a chauvinist’.

This pronoun can also be used to form classificatory sentences in a bit different way: kot to zwierzę ‘a cat is an animal’, lit. something like ‘a cat, this [is] an animal’, ten student to szowinista ‘that student is a chauvinist’…

One limitation to this form is that the subject cannot be a pronoun, one would not say *on to pies for ‘he/it is a dog’ or *ja to Polak for ‘I am a Pole’. Although, this construction is used for intensification (but I think, mostly negative): on to dopiero kawał skurwysyna! ‘he is a real son-of-a-bitch, there’s no son-of-a-bitch equal to him’…
Last edited by silmeth on 2018-11-01, 22:01, edited 1 time in total.
polszczyzna jest moją mową ojczystą (pl), Is í Gaelainn na Mumhan atá á foghlaim agam (ga) ((ga-M)), mám, myslím, dobrou znalost češtiny, rozumím a něco mluvím (cs), Jeg lærer meg bokmål på Duolingo (no-nb) (og eg ville lære nynorsk ein gong (no-nn))

księżycowy

Re: Polish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-11-01, 21:57

Thanks everyone!

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Re: Polish Study Group

Postby ghostie » 2018-11-02, 19:10

Cześć! I'd like to join too if it's still going on. I have access to two versions of First Year Polish but not to the workbook. I'm going through the first lesson tonight. :) Powodzenia do wszystkich!
(cy) books read: 27/30
(pl) Duolingo skills completed: 31/67
(lv) Grammar lessons completed: 12/244

księżycowy

Re: Polish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-11-02, 19:16

Welcome aboard!

Just for clarity, which two versions of FYP do you have?

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Re: Polish Study Group

Postby Saim » 2018-11-02, 20:05

silmeth wrote:One limitation to this form is that the subject cannot be a pronoun, one would not say *on to pies for ‘he/it is a dog’ or *ja to Polak for ‘I am a Pole’.


Ja to ja natomiast mówi się, prawda? Czy wymyślała Paktofonika? :lol:

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Re: Polish Study Group

Postby pittmirg » 2018-11-02, 20:13

Actually there are contexts where to works with subject pronouns, e.g. Niby że ja to złodziej? But indeed *ja to Polak on its own sounds wrong. I'm not sure how to describe the difference :hmm:
Śnieg, zawierucha w nas

księżycowy

Re: Polish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-11-05, 12:47

Movin' on! Sections D & E from the outline in the workbook Unit 1!

księżycowy

Re: Polish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-11-05, 17:24

Exercise 1.E.1
► Show Spoiler


Exercise 1.E.2
► Show Spoiler


I think I know why the workbook only asks you to do a few sentences from any one given exercise. :P
At the very least, it's super easy so far.

księżycowy

Re: Polish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-11-05, 22:15

*waits for Vijay* :whistle:

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Re: Polish Study Group

Postby vijayjohn » 2018-11-05, 22:16

Sorry. :oops: :para:

Er, I mean, przepraszam!

księżycowy

Re: Polish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-11-05, 22:29

You have some ground to make up.

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Re: Polish Study Group

Postby ghostie » 2018-11-06, 20:41

księżycowy wrote:Welcome aboard!

Just for clarity, which two versions of FYP do you have?


The online website/PDF that someone linked to earlier in this thread - which IIRC should match up with the second edition - and what I assume is an earlier PDF version, which unfortunately doesn't have any information on the edition/date/etc. At the moment I'm sticking with the version that was linked here, as it seems more recent.

If neither of those match up with what other people are using I should be able to get my hands on a physical copy, it just might take a few weeks. :P
(cy) books read: 27/30
(pl) Duolingo skills completed: 31/67
(lv) Grammar lessons completed: 12/244

księżycowy

Re: Polish Study Group

Postby księżycowy » 2018-11-06, 20:48

I remember looking over one of the pdf versions, and it's not quite the same, but kinda close.

And, as I said earlier in the thread, I am willing to share materials. The workbooks in particular add up quickly.


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