Iterative motion verbs

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Quetzalcoatl
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Iterative motion verbs

Postby Quetzalcoatl » 2009-02-15, 16:09

Hi there, I have a little question about the verbs:

chodzić, jeździć, biegać, pływać, latać, wozić and nosić


I have two books in which these verbs are explained differently.

Book 1:
"Motion verbs with their iterative forms do also belong to this group which describe repetitive actions"

I do also have a book about Russian which says:

"There is a group of imperfective unprefixed verbs that describe a motion and appear in pairs. One verb has a determinate direction, the other one has an indeterminate direction."

determined - indetermined
идти - ходить
eхать - eздить
бежать - бегать
лететь - лeтaть


Of course, Russian is not Polish, but somehow I have the suspicion that the descriptions of Russian motion verbs could also be correct for Polish motion verbs. Could someone tell me, if my impression is right/wrong...? 8-)

And my second question: Do even native speakers understand the difference between "nosić, "przynosić", "nieść" and "przynieść"? Sometimes I'm not sure if at least Polish people know how to use these verbs correctly :mrgreen:

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Re: Iterative motion verbs

Postby pittmirg » 2009-02-15, 17:24

Of course, Russian is not Polish, but somehow I have the suspicion that the descriptions of Russian motion verbs could also be correct for Polish motion verbs. Could someone tell me, if my impression is right/wrong...?


Yes, these verbs have two meanings in fact, that is, (1) repeated action or (2) movement with no particular target.

an example of the former:

Córka nosi węgiel do piwnicy.


an example of the latter:

Wasze dziecko właśnie pływa sobie w stawie.

And my second question: Do even native speakers understand the difference between "nosić, "przynosić", "nieść" and "przynieść"? Sometimes I'm not sure if at least Polish people know how to use these verbs correctly


And what's the correct usage in your opinion? :wink:

I've been once told that it's a somewhat different distinction that the one between the English verbs go vs come (or carry vs bring), more like go vs arrive. I doubt if I fully understand that bit of English semantics, though.
Last edited by pittmirg on 2009-02-15, 20:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Iterative motion verbs

Postby Quetzalcoatl » 2009-02-15, 17:44

niesc = przynosic (imperfective)
przyniesc (perfective)
nosic (iterative)

that's how I would use the 4 verbs :mrgreen:

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Re: Iterative motion verbs

Postby arti » 2009-02-15, 17:44

I would explain those verbs from the second question like this:
przynieść coś = to bring sth, one action (example: Kto przyniósł tę gazetę?)
przynosić coś = to bring sth repeatedly (ex: Mama codziennie przynosi z pracy gazetę.)
nosić coś = to carry sth repeatedly (ex: On zawsze nosi parasol.)
nieść coś = to carry sth at the moment (ex: On niesie kwiaty dla nauczycielki.)
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Re: Iterative motion verbs

Postby BezierCurve » 2009-02-15, 17:47

And my second question: Do even native speakers understand the difference between "nosić, "przynosić", "nieść" and "przynieść"? Sometimes I'm not sure if at least Polish people know how to use these verbs correctly


EDIT: arti was faster ;)
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Re: Iterative motion verbs

Postby Quetzalcoatl » 2009-02-15, 18:02

arti wrote:I would explain those verbs from the second question like this:
przynieść coś = to bring sth, one action (example: Kto przyniósł tę gazetę?)
przynosić coś = to bring sth repeatedly (ex: Mama codziennie przynosi z pracy gazetę.)
nosić coś = to carry sth repeatedly (ex: On zawsze nosi parasol.)
nieść coś = to carry sth at the moment (ex: On niesie kwiaty dla nauczycielki.)


Just in case someone know some German:

nosić (it.) /nieść (imp.) = tragen
przynosić (it.) /przynieść (imp.) = bringen

right? aren't there perfective equivalents?


Edit: I guess my question about if Poles know the difference between nosic, niesc, przynosic and przyniesc was just as intelligent as asking Germans if they know the difference between bringen, herbringen and hinbringen (and überbringen, aufbringen, verbringen, anbringen, abbringen, unterbringen...) :? :P

[Wierzę że moje pytanie czy Polacy znają różnicę między nosić, nieść, przynosić i przynieść było tak intelektualne jak pytanie czy Niemcy znają różnicę między bringen, herbringen i hinbringen]

Last edited by Quetzalcoatl on 2009-02-15, 18:15, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Iterative motion verbs

Postby Psi-Lord » 2009-02-15, 18:07

Gruszka wrote:Of course, Russian is not Polish, but somehow I have the suspicion that the descriptions of Russian motion verbs could also be correct for Polish motion verbs.

Neither is Bulgarian either, but I’ll keep an eye on this thread, hoping it can give me more clues on how to distinguish Bulgarian отивам/отида & идвам/дойда (directional, one-way trip), ходя (directional, unrestricted), and вървя (non-directional) properly. :D
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Re: Iterative motion verbs

Postby arti » 2009-02-15, 18:19

Gruszka wrote:Just in case someone know some German:

nosić (it.) /nieść (imp.) = tragen
przynosić (it.) /przynieść (imp.) = bringen

right? aren't there perfective equivalents?

zanieść, przynieść are perfective

Gruszka wrote:[Mysle ze moje pytanie czy Polacy znaja roznice miedzy nosic, niesc, przynosic i przyniesc bylo tak intelektualne jak pytanie czy Niemcy znaja roznice miedzy ....]

Nice translation! ;) But "inteligentne" would be better. And I was impressed at the very first moment how many you have words with ~bringen. Then I realized that we have some too: podnosić, zanosić, wynosić, donosić (lol), znosić, wnosić, unosić... and maybe some more ;)
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Re: Iterative motion verbs

Postby BezierCurve » 2009-02-15, 18:30

Amazing, indeed. Here's the rest of them.
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Re: Iterative motion verbs

Postby Quetzalcoatl » 2009-02-15, 18:34

OK, once again:


nosic = tragen, carry [iterative (repetitive or no specific direction)]
niesc = tragen, carry [imperfective (repetitive or no specific direction)]
przyniesc,zaniesc = ~tragen/bringen, carry/bring [perfective]
przynosic = bringen, bring [imperfective]


If we consider verb pairs of perfective and imperfective verbs not to be two independant verbs but one verb, we could say that "przynosic" and "niesc" are two independant verbs sharing the same perfective and iterative form.

verb (1): przynosic, przyniesc/zaniesc, nosic (to bring/bringen)
verb (2): niesc, przyniesc/zaniesc, nosic (to carry/tragen)


Well, if someone asked we about the difference between "tragen" and "bringen" or "to carry" and "to bring" I would say that "to bring/bringen" means so carry something to a specific place and there we have it... Polish is a confusing language (and unfortunately German and English are not better) :D

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Re: Iterative motion verbs

Postby Quetzalcoatl » 2009-02-15, 18:36

BezierCurve wrote:Amazing, indeed. Here's the rest of them.



Chcesz żebym się zabił?! :P

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Re: Iterative motion verbs

Postby arti » 2009-02-15, 18:38

Gruszka wrote:
BezierCurve wrote:Amazing, indeed. Here's the rest of them.

Chcesz żebym się zabił?! :P

He didn't start the "bringen" competition :D
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Re: Iterative motion verbs

Postby pittmirg » 2009-02-15, 20:38

Gruszka wrote:OK, once again:


nosic = tragen, carry [iterative (repetitive or no specific direction)]
niesc = tragen, carry [imperfective (repetitive or no specific direction)]
przyniesc,zaniesc = ~tragen/bringen, carry/bring [perfective]
przynosic = bringen, bring [imperfective]


If we consider verb pairs of perfective and imperfective verbs not to be two independant verbs but one verb, we could say that "przynosic" and "niesc" are two independant verbs sharing the same perfective and iterative form.

verb (1): przynosic, przyniesc/zaniesc, nosic (to bring/bringen)
verb (2): niesc, przyniesc/zaniesc, nosic (to carry/tragen)


Well, if someone asked we about the difference between "tragen" and "bringen" or "to carry" and "to bring" I would say that "to bring/bringen" means so carry something to a specific place and there we have it... Polish is a confusing language (and unfortunately German and English are not better) :D


Well, I'd say that the function of przynieść (as opposed to zanieść; the same seems to be true about other verbs of motion with the prefix przy- like przyjść [as opposed to pójść], przyjechać, przywieźć) is to "turn the camera" on the place towards which the action is being performed.

Przynosić and zanosić are simply the imperfective derivatives of przynieść and zanieść, and they don't have the iterative~indeterminate meaning (as a rule, when an imperfective verb is derived from a perfective motion verb which has been derived via prefixation of a simple motion verb - in our aspectual system which kind of resembles the rock-paper-scissors game - then the iterative stem is used, apparently).

Chcesz żebym się zabił?!


Myślę, że te wszystkie niemieckie czasowniki z przedrostkami i angielskie phrasal verbs są niemniej porażające. W dodatku w niemieckim czasem przedrostki się odklejają idąc na koniec zdania, i już nawet nie pamiętam, co się właściwie dzieje jak w zdaniu podrzędnym sam czasownik za nimi tam podąża.
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Re: Iterative motion verbs

Postby Quetzalcoatl » 2009-02-15, 21:25

I try a few example sentences...


Mój dziadek nosi okulary bo ma słabe oczy.
Te chmury przyniosą nam dużo deszczu.
W autobusie widziałem matkę która niosła dziecko na swojej ręce.
Nauczycielka często widziała matkę która przyniosła dziecko do szkoły.


Dobry polski?! ;)

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Re: Iterative motion verbs

Postby BezierCurve » 2009-02-15, 23:57

Można powiedzieć, że perfekcyjny.

Jeżeli jednak w ostatnim zdaniu chcielibyśmy powiedzieć, że matka powtarzała tę czynność wielokrotnie (przynoszenie dziecka), należałoby zamienić je na:

Nauczycielka często widziała (widywała) matkę, która przynosiła dziecko do szkoły.

"Widywała" podkreśla powtarzalność akcji, choć "często widziała" jest również w powszechnym użyciu.

W obecnej postaci sugerujemy, że nauczycielka często widywała konkretną matkę, która tylko raz przyniosła dziecko.
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Re: Iterative motion verbs

Postby arti » 2009-02-16, 8:58

I can hardly imagine how a mother can carry (on her arms) a child from their home to school.
I wonder if it was the intended meaning. :hmm:
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Re: Iterative motion verbs

Postby BezierCurve » 2009-02-16, 9:08

Indeed, "przyprowadzała" would be more suitable here (I guess "bringen" works both ways), but as far as grammar is concerned - the sentence looks fine. :)
Last edited by BezierCurve on 2009-02-16, 13:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Iterative motion verbs

Postby Quetzalcoatl » 2009-02-16, 12:48

arti wrote:I can hardly imagine how a mother can carry (on her arms) a child from their home to school.
I wonder if it was the intended meaning. :hmm:



Chyba jest silna kobieta 8-)

Naturalnie tylko chciałem powiedzieć że matka przyprowadzała dziecko do szkoły.
(Takie dzieci które idą do szkoły zwykle są już za dużo żeby nosić ich na rękach. ;) )


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