How do I sound?

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pittmirg
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Re: How do I sound?

Postby pittmirg » 2009-06-06, 9:14

@Qrczak: dost thou contrast things such as [m_j] and [mj]? (I'm asking because I'm not sure if I'd notice the derevon's pronunciation at all)

@derevon: in mogłyby one should stress the first syllable (the hypothetical ending is in fact a clitic which doesn't cause the host's stress to move and we'd better write it as a separate words in our silly orthography :)); your trwał also sound kinda odd to me, especially since I say [tɾ̥faw]; some dialects have [v] in this word and I'm not sure what it would sound like to them but even considering that it sounds too much like [w] in your case, in my opinion.
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Re: How do I sound?

Postby derevon » 2009-06-06, 11:04

Thanks for your input. :)

I also thought my "trwał" sounded weird, but I wasn't sure why. I know "w" is pronounced like "f" at the end of words, but I'm not sure exactly in which other situations. Anyone knows any good rules? As for my "miała" I can agree with Qrczak I exaggerated the j-sound. It sounded more like a cat miaowing. ;)

By the way, does the "by" particle when at the end of words never trigger stress advancement? Also, where is the stress in for example "mogłybyśmy"?

When it comes to Polish orthography I'm not complaining. It's complex, but highly regular. I think I can survive the fact that some occasional words don't have the stress on the penultimate syllable. ;)
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Re: How do I sound?

Postby pittmirg » 2009-06-06, 12:29

derevon wrote:I know "w" is pronounced like "f" at the end of words,

To be precise, only before a pause, words starting with voiceless consonants and (not in every region) with sonorants and vowels.
but I'm not sure exactly in which other situations. Anyone knows any good rules?

In this area after a voiceless consonant, before a voiceless consonant, and in clusters such as trw, krw (where "r" is devoiced as well). The situation is different in some other regional varieties, though (that is, it may remain voiced after a voiceless consonant - tw, kw, sw etc. - and in trw, krw; oddly, obstruents may even be devoiced in 1pl imperative form before the -my ending, so that zostawmy becomes [zOstafm1].

As for my "miała" I can agree with Qrczak I exaggerated the j-sound. It sounded more like a cat miaowing. ;)


Well, I'm pretty certain that I say things like [mʲjeʨ], in particular under emphasis, but not everybody has to, supposedly some people even contrast palatalized labials with clusters such as [bj]. Anyway, Russian palatalized consonants sound different, more subtle to me.

OTOH, my grandma tends to realize kie as [ke] with very weak palatalization if any and a close-mid vowel. But she's Silesian, and velars are a different topic.

By the way, does the "by" particle when at the end of words never trigger stress advancement? Also, where is the stress in for example "mogłybyśmy"?


Well, I think for most speakers it doesn't, though I can't warrant some oddball individuals can't be found :) Nowadays Polish has a tendency to reshuffle its stress and various things can happen, e.g. the past plural verb forms like zjedliśmy used to be stressed on the third-to-last syllable but now most people here pronounce them with penultimate stress, and so on. Mogłybyśmy seems to have two stressed syllables, the first one and the third one.
When it comes to Polish orthography I'm not complaining. It's complex, but highly regular. I think I can survive the fact that some occasional words don't have the stress on the penultimate syllable. ;)


I wouldn't say mogłoby is really one word, it's just written that way*. There are some real exceptions but they tend to be levelled these days anyway.

EDIT:
*the order of both parts can still be easily changed: "one by mogły" etc.
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Re: How do I sound?

Postby Qrczak » 2009-06-06, 13:41

pittmirg wrote:@Qrczak: dost thou contrast things such as [m_j] and [mj]? (I'm asking because I'm not sure if I'd notice the derevon's pronunciation at all)

I do; many Poles don’t. But in any case the mia in this recording has a quite strong j in several cases, and plain j in other positions is unusually strong as well.

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Re: How do I sound?

Postby derevon » 2009-06-06, 14:30

Qrczak wrote:
pittmirg wrote:@Qrczak: dost thou contrast things such as [m_j] and [mj]? (I'm asking because I'm not sure if I'd notice the derevon's pronunciation at all)

I do; many Poles don’t. But in any case the mia in this recording has a quite strong j in several cases, and plain j in other positions is unusually strong as well.


So far I've always pronounced "j", "ie" and "ia" as I would have pronounced "j" in Swedish (which is pronounced like "y" in English "yes"). I guess I should start to put less emphasis on it.

What's hardest for me to pronounce in Polish, though, is words like "chcielibyście" (I almost always stumble on the "ch" in the beginning), or even worse, sequences of such words like: "czy chcielibyście coś zjeść" or "tak się cieszę, że cię widzę". If someone could write in IPA how "coś zjeść" is supposed to be pronounced I'd be grateful.
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Re: How do I sound?

Postby Qrczak » 2009-06-06, 14:53

derevon wrote:If someone could write in IPA how "coś zjeść" is supposed to be pronounced I'd be grateful.

/t͡sɔʑzjɛɕt͡ɕ/ — -ś becomes voiced because it is before other voiced consonants (excluding liquids, at least in the more common dialect; I think on the south of Poland there is more voicing).

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Re: How do I sound?

Postby derevon » 2009-06-07, 11:11

Thanks. I guess with a lot of practice I could eventually get the hang of it. ;)
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Re: How do I sound?

Postby pittmirg » 2009-06-07, 11:46

To add my two pennies' worth, [ʑ] seems relatively weakly fricated in that position*, and I have a tendency to elide the final -ć in words ending in -ść. So that I have [t͡sɔʑ̞zjeɕ] in relaxed pronunciation.
Ok, talking about weird details of your idiolect that no-one cares about is fun, nevertheless. :P

*this weakening may be related to the historical sound change uźrzeć > ujrzeć, doźrzały > dojrzały (also mieśćce > miejsce, zdradźca > zdrajca, radźca > rajca etc.), though it doesn't go that far.

Qrczak wrote:I think on the south of Poland there is more voicing


Yup. Jest jakiś is [jɛzˈjakʲiɕ] or even [jɛˈzʲakʲiɕ] in faster speech, for me.

derevon wrote:tak się cieszę, że cię widzę


Cieszę się, że się cieszysz is rad... :)
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Re: How do I sound?

Postby voron » 2009-06-07, 12:23

What would you think if you heard [t͡sɔʑ̞:jeɕt͡ɕ] ? For me it's the easiest way to pronounce it.

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Re: How do I sound?

Postby pittmirg » 2009-06-07, 13:23

"It must be some voron" is what I'd think. Progressive POA assimilation isn't something that actually happens in this context, at least.

OTOH, there are environments where regressive assimilation is fairly common, e.g. in words such as nareszcie, wreszcie.
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Re: How do I sound?

Postby Mr.N » 2009-06-07, 13:33

derevon wrote:I also decided to record myself reading some text (from http://www.sport.pl). My Polish gf says it sounds good, but she can't really tell me what I should try to improve or give more detailed suggestions, so I'm trying here. ;)

http://archon.se/f1.mp3


Hej,

In the very first moment, I thought it was Polish spoken by a Russian. Actually I'm able to understand every single word you said, when not paying attetion to the accent. I guess your Polish is much better than my Swedish.

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Re: How do I sound?

Postby derevon » 2009-06-07, 17:51

Mr.N wrote:In the very first moment, I thought it was Polish spoken by a Russian. Actually I'm able to understand every single word you said, when not paying attetion to the accent. I guess your Polish is much better than my Swedish.


I used to study some Russian. Maybe that's why, or maybe the reason is that Swedish "e" is a bit more like Russian "е" than Polish. I'm not really sure. Also I should point out that I practised several times for this one in order not to waste people's time correcting tongue slips. Otherwise I would surely have stumbled on at least a few occasions.

As for my Polish it's still disastrous after living here for almost 10 months. I'm no where near conversational, and I generally only catch the essence of what people say when they talk. If I understand five words in a row I'm almost cheering. :( I doesn't really help me much that I have a vocabulary of 5000 or so words, because everyone talks so fast that I don't have the time to translate the words in my head, even if I know them (assuming I even manage to discern them in the first place). Sometimes the fact that some monosyllabic nouns aren't even stressed can confuse me, for example, someone may say "każdego dnia", but to me it would sound like "każ degodnia". On other occasions some words or sentences are just too schschsch-ish and therefore sound like gibberish to me. I think Swedes are just not made to understand Slavic languages, or perhaps I just have a bad language ear. ;) If anyone ever heard of some native Germanic language-speaker (without any Polish parents) who managed to learn decent Polish (preferably without living there for 20 years), please let me know, so I can know it's not impossible at least. ;)

pittmirg wrote:Cieszę się, że się cieszysz is rad... :P


Cieszę się, że się cieszysz, że się cieszę... hmm ;) I have a feeling this sentence wouldn't be all that clearly understood if there's a snowstorm around, or if it's said over a radio link with severe static interference. ;)
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Re: How do I sound?

Postby Mr.N » 2009-06-07, 18:42

Your Polish isn't bad at all. As I said, I can understand every single word you say on that file. Concerning the Swedish/Russian "e" you might be right.

I think I know what your problem is. I had a similar problem when I was in France for the first time many years ago and I won't do any better in Göteborg next week. I've been learning new words day by day but hearing whole conversations spoken in every day life I will probably get like every 10th word. I'd like to keep you up-to-date when I'm back in Germany and tell you about my experiences. :lol:

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Re: How do I sound?

Postby derevon » 2009-06-07, 19:27

Mr.N wrote:Your Polish isn't bad at all. As I said, I can understand every single word you say on that file.


Well, it's one thing to read a text, and a totally different thing to speak. When I speak I have to think for ages about cases, endings, etc, and it just doesn't work. :( Well, since I don't understand what people say anyway it doesn't really matter I guess. I really need to learn how to think in Polish, but I have no idea how.

I think I know what your problem is. I had a similar problem when I was in France for the first time many years ago and I won't do any better in Göteborg next week. I've been learning new words day by day but hearing whole conversations spoken in every day life I will probably get like every 10th word. I'd like to keep you up-to-date when I'm back in Germany and tell you about my experiences. :lol:


You will understand a lot I think, because German and Swedish are so similar. At least when people speak reasonably clearly and slowly. I can understand spoken German rather well, even though I haven't studied German for ages, and was very unmotivated when I studied it back in school. The good thing is that you can pretty much translate word for word and thought for thought in your head between these languages.
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Re: How do I sound?

Postby pittmirg » 2009-06-08, 7:47

derevon wrote:If anyone ever heard of some native Germanic language-speaker (without any Polish parents) who managed to learn decent Polish (preferably without living there for 20 years), please let me know, so I can know it's not impossible at least.


Steffen Möller perhaps? And the like... :mrgreen: I've also seen some German diplomat/politologist with pretty decent Polish on TV (no idea about his ancestry, though).

If a guy managed to learn to speak Yanyuwa fluently...
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Re: How do I sound?

Postby derevon » 2009-06-08, 8:12

pittmirg wrote:I've also seen some German diplomat/politologist with pretty decent Polish on [b]TV


Exactly. The only time you hear of some non-Slav speaking Polish it's on TV. :D
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Re: How do I sound?

Postby Quetzalcoatl » 2009-06-15, 16:07

If people want to know what Polish sounds like with a typical German accent (I guess it's pretty difficult to say as there are so few Germans speaking Polish), they simply have to listen to some Sorbian... :P

Jeśli ktoś chce wiedzieć jak język poski brzmi mowiony z niemieckim akcentem (wierzę że to może być trudno, bo nie ma tylu Niemców umiejąc mowić po polsku), trzeba tylko słuchać trochę sorbskiego. :para:

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Re: How do I sound?

Postby Mr.N » 2009-06-15, 17:40

My parents used to be friends with a mixed German-Polish couple. The guy was a Pole, his wife was German. Her Polish became very good and her German accent wasn't annoying at all.

By the way, there is no such word as "sorbski" in Polish. It's called język łużycki. You are right about the accent. The Sorbian languages have been heavily influenced by German and often sound like Polish/Czech spoken by Germans. On the other hand, the very old Generation and the youngest generation in kindergardens have a real Western Slavic accent. The majority of the old Sorbs used to speak Sorbian only and learnt German when starting schools. Children in kindergardens are partially taught by old Sorbs how to speak the real language spoken in the villages.
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Re: How do I sound?

Postby Timpul » 2009-06-17, 16:13

By the way, there is no such word as "sorbski" in Polish. It's called język łużycki.

Actually we all know that there's nothing like one "język łużycki". It's "górnołużycki" (Upper Sorbian) and "dolnołużycki" (Lower Sorbian). However, in Silesian there's the name "sorbsko godka".

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Re: How do I sound?

Postby Mr.N » 2009-06-17, 18:52

I know that there are two forms of Sorbian, an upper and a lower one. You can also say "serbołużycki". I happen to speak one of them. :wink: By the way, many linguists still haven't stopped arguing if it's two forms of the same language or just seperate yet very close languages.


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