Polish ę - ą - ł

Tawananna
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Postby Tawananna » 2004-02-13, 22:14

Nowadays there is a tendency of nasal vowels' decay in Polish. I was told about more than 25% of Poles can't pronounce them although I didn't believe it ;). In fact, you can speak Polish fluently and being well-understood without using it (pronouncing an open vowel + adequate consonant). Polish specialists of phonetics argue about nasal vowels. On the basis of some practical researches they singled out some models of pronouncing them, like open vowel + [w]. Many scientists say there aren't any nasal vowels pronounced synchronously, even before consonants like [s, f, v] (szczelinowe - wsz, Fenek - what is the English name?) or at the end
of word there is open vowel + nasal resonance. In my opinion nasal vowels are still existing but the nasality sometimes is small, like [ę] at the end of word (you can pronounce [ę] or [e] and it's absolutely correct). In the indigenous Polish words there can be two nasal vowels, [ę] and [ą] but in borrowings there are (as one of the options of pronounciation) other nasal vowels, like nasal i (e.g. instynkt), u (kunszt), y (czynsz), o (konwalia). The other method of pronouncing these words is just spelling (i+n). Researches show usually such words are pronounced with a nasal vowel when the consonant after [n] or [m] is articulated (is this the right word? I couldn't find it in my dictionary ;( ) with similar position, like [n] and [s] (e.g. [sens/sęs]). I hope I didn't wrote any nonsenses :). Other Poles, please correct me :).

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Zaduma
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Postby Zaduma » 2004-02-13, 22:54

Tawananna wrote:consonants like [s, f, v] (szczelinowe - wsz, Fenek - what is the English name?


Spytaj Zadumę ;)

szczelinowe -> fricative (nawet po Polsku mówi się: frykatywna)

Tawananna
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Postby Tawananna » 2004-02-13, 23:07

Zaduma wrote:
Tawananna wrote:consonants like [s, f, v] (szczelinowe - wsz, Fenek - what is the English name?


Spytaj Zadumę ;)

Zadumana Tawananna stwierdziła, że to całkiem niezły pomysł ;).

szczelinowe -> fricative (nawet po Polsku mówi się: frykatywna)


Dzięki! Głupia jestem, mogłam na to wpaść :). To może od razu zapytam się o angielskie nazwy pozostałych co ważniejszych grup żeby później Cię nie zamęczać ;DD.

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wsz
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Postby wsz » 2004-02-14, 17:17

Luis wrote:Yes. I don't know if she uses nasal i, u, etc when she speaks. ę and ą she uses obviously. As Fenek said it's something not everyone does and it depends on the region (I got the impression it's more common in the south...)

Well, I must admit that I don't know it :roll:
Tawananna wrote:Nowadays there is a tendency of nasal vowels' decay in Polish. I was told about more than 25% of Poles can't pronounce them although I didn't believe it ;). In fact, you can speak Polish fluently and being well-understood without using it (pronouncing an open vowel + adequate consonant). Polish specialists of phonetics argue about nasal vowels. On the basis of some practical researches they singled out some models of pronouncing them, like open vowel + [w]. Many scientists say there aren't any nasal vowels pronounced synchronously, even before consonants like [s, f, v] (szczelinowe - wsz, Fenek - what is the English name?) or at the end
of word there is open vowel + nasal resonance. In my opinion nasal vowels are still existing but the nasality sometimes is small, like [ę] at the end of word (you can pronounce [ę] or [e] and it's absolutely correct). In the indigenous Polish words there can be two nasal vowels, [ę] and [ą] but in borrowings there are (as one of the options of pronounciation) other nasal vowels, like nasal i (e.g. instynkt), u (kunszt), y (czynsz), o (konwalia). The other method of pronouncing these words is just spelling (i+n). Researches show usually such words are pronounced with a nasal vowel when the consonant after [n] or [m] is articulated (is this the right word? I couldn't find it in my dictionary ;( ) with similar position, like [n] and [s] (e.g. [sens/sęs]). I hope I didn't wrote any nonsenses :). Other Poles, please correct me :).

As for me, I bsolutely agree with you :) I could only add that I personally really don't like as somebody pronounce [ę] by force ;)
Tawanna wrote:Dzięki! Głupia jestem, mogłam na to wpaść :)

Tawananna jest po prostu purystką i pragnie używać wyłącznie całkowicei polskiej terminologii :D ;)

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Zaduma
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Postby Zaduma » 2004-02-14, 17:34

wsz wrote:Tawananna jest po prostu purystką i pragnie używać wyłącznie całkowicei polskiej terminologii :D ;)


I ja osobiście się z nią zgadzam, chodziło mi jedynie o latwe skojarzenie z drugim używanym w języku polskim terminem. Pozdrawiam :wink: !

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Zaduma
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Postby Zaduma » 2004-02-14, 17:48

This one should interest you – in a Silesian (dialect or language??) instead of saying IDĘ, ROBIĘ, JEM ZUPĘ (I go, make, eat soup) ida, robia, jem zupa. Muszę kupić nową lampę (I have to but a new lamp) -> in Silesian: Musza kupić nowa lampa…

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wsz
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Postby wsz » 2004-02-14, 20:01

Zaduma wrote:
wsz wrote:Tawananna jest po prostu purystką i pragnie używać wyłącznie całkowicei polskiej terminologii :D ;)


I ja osobiście się z nią zgadzam, chodziło mi jedynie o latwe skojarzenie z drugim używanym w języku polskim terminem. Pozdrawiam :wink: !

Nie, nie, spoko :) Nic złego nie miałem na myśli :D

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Zaduma
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Postby Zaduma » 2004-02-14, 20:23

wsz wrote:
Zaduma wrote:
wsz wrote:Tawananna jest po prostu purystką i pragnie używać wyłącznie całkowicei polskiej terminologii :D ;)


I ja osobiście się z nią zgadzam, chodziło mi jedynie o latwe skojarzenie z drugim używanym w języku polskim terminem. Pozdrawiam :wink: !

Nie, nie, spoko :) Nic złego nie miałem na myśli :D


Ja też nie, Waldek ;) Ale ładnie - tyle okienek w okienkach ;)

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wsz
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Postby wsz » 2004-02-14, 20:56

Zaduma wrote:
wsz wrote:
Zaduma wrote:
wsz wrote:Tawananna jest po prostu purystką i pragnie używać wyłącznie całkowicei polskiej terminologii :D ;)


I ja osobiście się z nią zgadzam, chodziło mi jedynie o latwe skojarzenie z drugim używanym w języku polskim terminem. Pozdrawiam :wink: !

Nie, nie, spoko :) Nic złego nie miałem na myśli :D


Ja też nie, Waldek ;) Ale ładnie - tyle okienek w okienkach ;)

Luzik ;) No a dla Ciebie, Ewa, jeszcze jedno okienko :lol:

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Luís
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Postby Luís » 2004-02-15, 12:36

Hmm... first you say Polish has much more nasals than in theory, now Tawananna says Polish nasals are on their way to disappearing... where do we stand? :)
Quot linguas calles, tot homines vales

Tawananna
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Postby Tawananna » 2004-02-15, 13:32

Luís wrote:Hmm... first you say Polish has much more nasals than in theory, now Tawananna says Polish nasals are on their way to disappearing... where do we stand? :)

Oh, maybe it doesn't look so but it's still pretty logical ;). In Polish there are possible more than two nasals - in fact, every vowel has its nasal equivalent. But it doesn't change the fact that less and less people pronounce nasal vowels correctly :).

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wsz
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Postby wsz » 2004-02-15, 17:33

Luis wrote:Hmm... first you say Polish has much more nasals than in theory, now Tawananna says Polish nasals are on their way to disappearing... where do we stand? :)

You know, Poland is quite a big country with many different people, more or less well-educated ones... Quoting the author of a dictionary of Polish pronunciation, I can tell you that many Poles still believe that they say words as they're written. Thus, even if they pronounce words correctly in informal speaking, they do the same incorrectly as they want to be correct, because knowing the spelling they want to say every letter in a word as if it meant an individual sound... That's why they say [w~] after vowels which have been meant to be nasal. So, don't be surprised much if you hear, for example, a Polish politician saying [zrobiew~].

Are they disappearing? Hm, I don't think so, but surelly quite many people say them incorrectly.
Tawananna wrote:But it doesn't change the fact that less and less people pronounce nasal vowels correctly :).

Well, I wouldn't be such a pessimist ;) It may seem so, because more and more people in the media try to be wiser than they are in reality, but that's inna para kaloszy ;)

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Zaduma
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Postby Zaduma » 2004-02-16, 11:31

It's just because languages are evaluating all the time and sounds and pronounciation is (step by step, slowly, but always) changing and simplificing.

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Postby Luís » 2004-02-19, 20:31

Isn't someone forgetting to do some recordings? :twisted:

Anyway, you can take your time. I'm just making making sure you don't forget ;)
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wsz
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Postby wsz » 2004-02-20, 11:04

Luís wrote:Isn't someone forgetting to do some recordings? :twisted:

Anyway, you can take your time. I'm just making making sure you don't forget ;)

No, 'somebody' remembers about it ;) I'll try to send it tonight...

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Zaduma
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Postby Zaduma » 2004-02-20, 13:03

wsz wrote:
Luís wrote:Isn't someone forgetting to do some recordings? :twisted:

Anyway, you can take your time. I'm just making making sure you don't forget ;)

No, 'somebody' remembers about it ;) I'll try to send it tonight...


Super, ja też na to czekam :wink: zwłaszcza owe nosowe i, u...

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wsz
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Postby wsz » 2004-02-20, 13:18

Zaduma wrote:
wsz wrote:
Luís wrote:Isn't someone forgetting to do some recordings? :twisted:

Anyway, you can take your time. I'm just making making sure you don't forget ;)

No, 'somebody' remembers about it ;) I'll try to send it tonight...


Super, ja też na to czekam :wink: zwłaszcza owe nosowe i, u...

To nagraj się ;)

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Zaduma
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Postby Zaduma » 2004-02-20, 13:39

Waldek ale ja nie wiem jak brzmi nosowe u albo i w wymowie krakowskiej, a wyście, chłopaki, nam to obiecali :wink:

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wsz
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Postby wsz » 2004-02-20, 14:45

Zaduma wrote:Waldek ale ja nie wiem jak brzmi nosowe u albo i w wymowie krakowskiej, a wyście, chłopaki, nam to obiecali ;)

Tam nie wiesz... nie wierzę ;) I nie jestem pewien czy ja mówię po krakowsku, ale raczej nie :), bo nawet tam nie byłem nigdy :/ Już biorę się do roboty :D Wyślę tu linka...

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Postby wsz » 2004-02-20, 16:13

Ok, I've recorded a few sounds and words...
http://claim.w.interia.pl/nasal_vowels.mp3

a ̃ɑ
kwadrans [kfɑdr̃ɑs]

e ̃ɛ
gęś [g̃ɛɕ]

o ̃ɔ
wąż [w̃ɔʃ]

i ĩ
instynkt [ĩstɨnkt]

y ̃ɨ
czynsz [ʧ̃ɨʃ]

u ũ
kunszt [kũʃt]


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