Difference between gizon bat and gizona

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Massimiliano B
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Difference between gizon bat and gizona

Postby Massimiliano B » 2015-08-17, 15:12

Hi!

In Basque I cannot use the determiner -a if I use also bat. So I cannot say "ni gizona bat naiz", but only "ni gizon bat naiz" and "ni gizona naiz". My answer is: how have I to translate those sentences? Is "I am a man" correct? Or rather have I to say "I am a man" for "ni gizon bat naiz" and "I am the man" for "ni gizona naiz"? Thank you!
Dette er nemlig Formelen, som beskriver Selvets Tilstand, naar Fortvivlelsen ganske er udryddet: i at forholde sig til sig selv, og i at ville være sig selv grunder Selvet gjennemsigtigt i den Magt, som satte det. (This is namely the formula, that describes the condition of the self, when despair is completely eradicated: by relating itself to itself, and by willing to be itself, the self is grounded transparently in the power which constituted it) (Søren Kierkegaard, The sickness unto death)

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Re: Difference between gizon bat and gizona

Postby arabarra » 2015-08-18, 11:22

Hi,

moder Basque tends to copy its Latin neighbours and to generally prefer the "x bat izan" over the "x-a izan".

However, traditional Basque would prefer the X-a construction when the speaker is focusing on the sustantive, and X bat when focusing on the numeral (the fact that it is "one").


If you are walking through a forest in the night and see a shadow, you could ask:
-Zer zara zu?
-"What are you?"
and the shadow would answer
-Azeria naiz
for "I am A fox".
In this case, moder Basque would also accept
-Azeri bat naiz,
although I find the -A form more ellegant and nicer sounding.

About your sentence, it's all about the context. Consider these three possible cases:


If you are expressing that you are a man (and not a woman), you would actually use a different construction:
Ni gizonEZKOA naiz.

If you want to express that you are a man (and not an ork, elf or dwarf), you'd say
Ni gizaKIA naiz.

To express that you are one man (among many others, and your opinions don't represent others)
Ni gizon bat naiz.


hope it helped!

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Re: Difference between gizon bat and gizona

Postby Massimiliano B » 2015-08-19, 10:03

Than you, arabarra!

So, the form with bat focuses on the numeral and it's not really an undetermined article...but in the last centuries, due to the Romance influence, bat tends to assume the role of an undetermined article...so, the usage and meaning of bat in this context is variable....I'm correct?
Dette er nemlig Formelen, som beskriver Selvets Tilstand, naar Fortvivlelsen ganske er udryddet: i at forholde sig til sig selv, og i at ville være sig selv grunder Selvet gjennemsigtigt i den Magt, som satte det. (This is namely the formula, that describes the condition of the self, when despair is completely eradicated: by relating itself to itself, and by willing to be itself, the self is grounded transparently in the power which constituted it) (Søren Kierkegaard, The sickness unto death)

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Re: Difference between gizon bat and gizona

Postby arabarra » 2015-08-19, 11:13

Hi Massimiliano,

So, the form with bat focuses on the numeral and it's not really an undetermined article...but in the last centuries, due to the Romance influence, bat tends to assume the role of an undetermined article...so, the usage and meaning of bat in this context is variable....I'm correct?


that's more or less correct. I wouldn't go to say that "bat" is not an undetermined article. I'd rather put it this way: Basque is less restrictive when using undetermined articles. Consider the example of the fox:

"What are you? " "I'm a fox"
English chooses to use an undetermined article... even if it is not necessary: it is very clear which fox it is!
So Basque would take the -a form:
"Ni azeria naiz"
(bat form being also possible).

But when the indetermination is more clear, like in
"A fireman was here"
where you clearly don't know which one, you'd translate as:
"Suhiltzaile bat egon da hemen"

Said that, it is also true that popular Basque would preserve the -a for certain nouns, even when the indetermination is clear:

"Azeria ibili da oilategian"

You don't use the "bat" form, even if you don't know the fox that has been eating your chickens, but this is more of a custom that you'd use for nouns as "otso", "hartz".

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Re: Difference between gizon bat and gizona

Postby Massimiliano B » 2015-08-26, 10:47

Thank you!
Dette er nemlig Formelen, som beskriver Selvets Tilstand, naar Fortvivlelsen ganske er udryddet: i at forholde sig til sig selv, og i at ville være sig selv grunder Selvet gjennemsigtigt i den Magt, som satte det. (This is namely the formula, that describes the condition of the self, when despair is completely eradicated: by relating itself to itself, and by willing to be itself, the self is grounded transparently in the power which constituted it) (Søren Kierkegaard, The sickness unto death)


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