Lurren haria

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Lur
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Lurren haria

Postby Lur » 2014-01-15, 5:20

Kaixo

Galdéra érgel askó daukát éta aldíz-aldí gáuza zenbáit idátzen naizénez geró euskáraz (gaizki), harí hau irékitzén dut nirétzat :)

...gaur, "(e)nez gero" esan ikasi dut :lol:


Eleberriak irakurri nahi ditut-en gainean (*?) zerrenda daukat. Gaur egun, lehenago areago (?) irakurtzen naiz.
* Irakurri edo leidu? Irakurri neologismoa da bainan gogoko dut. Si este participio viene de iraketa, me pregunto por qué irakurri y no iraki.
**Euskarak ez du /tute/ esan gogoko. Eta dituti buruz? Nola esan esaldi hau behar bezala?

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Re: Lurren haria

Postby Lur » 2014-01-29, 13:46

¿Alguien sabe por qué euskara se normalizó con -ARA pero el resto de lenguas van con -ERA?

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Re: Lurren haria

Postby Prosper_Youplaboum » 2014-01-29, 21:49

Erdara also has -ara.
Maybe it depends on the root of the word: euska-ra, erda-ra etc, the ending is maybe -ra, not -ara nor -era.
Btw people say Xiberotarra (Xiberotar-ra) too.
Just a hypothesis :)
Agur Xibe’ua,
Bazter güzietako xokho’ik eijerrena,
Agur sor lekhia,
Zu’i ditit ene ametsik goxuenak.

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Re: Lurren haria

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-04, 5:34

Lur wrote:Kaixo

Galdéra érgel askó daukát éta aldíz-aldí zenbáit gáuza zenbáit euskáraz (gaizki) idázten naizénez geró euskáraz (gaizki), harí hau irékitzén dut nirétzat. :)

...gaur, "(e)nez gero" esaten ikasi dut :lol:


Eleberriak irakurri nahi ditut-en gainean (*?) zerrenda daukat. Gaur egun, lehenago areago (?) irakurtzen naiz.
* Irakurri edo leidu? Irakurri neologismoa da bainan gogoko dut. Si este participio viene de iraketa, me pregunto por qué irakurri y no iraki.
**Euskarak ez du /tute/ esan gogoko. Eta dituti buruz? Nola esan esaldi hau behar bezala?

- "Zenbait" must come before the noun.
- "euskaraz (gaizki)" might better go elsewhere in the sentence, since after "-ez gero" it would be greatly emphasized, which you might not have wanted (unless you were emphasizing Basque over any other language.)
- With "ikasi", to say "to learn to do something" the other verb has to be in the "-ko" form.

If you want to say

"I have a list of/about novels that I want to read"

You have to rearrange your sentence a bit, and use a bit of different grammar. "that I want to read (plural)" would be "Irakurri nahi ditudan", and the rest would be "eleberriei buruzko zerrenda daukat."
Although, I'm not sure it would make sense to use "about" here. I think "eleberriko zerrenda" would make more sense. So, all in all:

"Irakurri nahi ditudan eleberriko zerrenda (bat) daukat."

I have not once seen the word "leitu" used - always "irakurri" for "to read". Also, "bainan" is a dialectal variation of "baina" which is the word usually used in Batua. I know "ikurri" is a back-formation from "irakurri", but "irakurri" was first attested in the 14th century, so even if it is a neologism, it has been in popular use for a long time.
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Re: Lurren haria

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-06, 19:50

"Irakurri nahi ditudan eleberriko zerrenda (bat) daukat."


Let me note something: if you go with the plural (ditut), then eleberri must also have a plural. Actually, the case "zeren" sounds more appropiate that "nongo" to my ear, so

"irakurri nahi ditudan elaberrien zerrenda bat daukat"

would be my translation for "I've got a list of novels that I want to read".

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Re: Lurren haria

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-06, 20:56

I'm not so sure about that. In Standard Basque by Rudolf de Rijk, section 5.4, point 3, he says about "-ko"

When the English preposition of could be replaced by another one, such as at, on, in,
to, from, or for, without any great difference in meaning, Basque will require the adnominal.
In such cases the connection between the possessor and the possession lacks the
character of an intrinsic relation. Rather, the possessor specifies a local or temporal frame
for the possession, or indicates its origin, distance, or some other accidental property.
Examples:
the weather of (in) Bilbao - Bilboko eguraldia
the furniture of (in) the house - etxeko erredizak
the hair of (on) the head - buruko ilea
the months of (in) the winter - neguko hilak


Whereas for "-aren" he says:

When there is an intrinsic, natural (i.e., nonfortuitous) relation between the possessor
and the possession, the genitive is the appropriate translation form. A typical example of
this kind of relation is the genetivus objectivus, that is, the relation between an agent and
the object involved in this agent’s action, such as that obtaining between a creator and the
creation achieved, an observer and the observation performed, and so on.
A few examples will serve to illustrate this point:
the owner of the workshop - lantegiaren jabea
the author of the book - liburuaren egilea
the receiver of the money - diruaren hartzailea
the finder of the ring - eraztunaren aurkitzailea


So I think the adnominal suffix should be used, not genitive. I don't think "a list of books" really fits the genitive description; there is no intrinsic or natural relation between a list and the books, nor were the books an agent in the creation of the list.

In "the author of the book (liburuaren egilea)" the book is the agent and the author is the object of the relationship. If one were to say "the book of the author," then the book would be the object and the author would be the agent of the relationship. So I think in the case of "a list of books" the relationship is more of content or "accidental property" than agency, since "of" could be replaced by "about."

But, then again, I can see an argument for how the books are an agent in the relationship, since they provide the titles to be written on the list. Maybe this is a case where either would work.

One can't really say "Irakurri nahi dudan eleberriko zerrenda bat daukat," because that would be using a singular object in the verb. Maybe in this case you simply must use the genitive, since you need to mark the plurality of the books.

What do you think?
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Re: Lurren haria

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-07, 10:56

no, no, I’m 100% positive that it’s “liburuen zerrenda” :-). "Nongo" will not work with “zerrenda”, (except you want to express something different: that you have a list written in a piece of paper, and this paper is physically related to the books!).

But I think you’re right when you point out that the “zeren" appears as an indirect consequence of the necessity of marking the plural in this particular sentence (irakurri nahi dITudan…). In general, for the isolated syntagm “a list of books” you would not even use a case. You just say “liburu zerrenda bat”, that’s what sound natural.

“LiburuEN zerrenda bat” sounds indeed like you want express that those books are particular ones, referred to before during the conversation, while “liburu zerrenda” stresses more the list than the particular identity of the set of books….

This fits actually good in your comment about “agents”: in the first case (with "zeren" case), the books themselves are more important, you are expressing that they constitute a set. In the second one (liburu zerrenda), the weight is on the list, which is incidentally constituted by books.

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Re: Lurren haria

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-07, 17:46

I was having trouble deciding which of the two categories this one would fit into, so good thing we have you to make sense of it. :D
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Re: Lurren haria

Postby Lur » 2015-05-29, 11:56

Hari hau ahantzi nuen :lol:


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