Dunbots' Basque Questions

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-13, 23:45

Emphasis makes more sense, but would your translation not be better translated by something like "Moztu duzun ilea nirea da!" ? Or is that too literal?
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-14, 1:18

but would your translation not be better translated by something like "Moztu duzun ilea nirea da!" ?


Well, yes, if you want to translate "the hair you cut was mine!", you could use "Moztu duzun ilea nirea da!" and would be probably fine, but "nere ilea moztu duzu!" could also work. Maybe, "nere ilea moztu duzu!" lies somewhere in between "Moztu duzun ilea nirea da!" and "ilea moztu didazu"....

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-14, 5:13

OK, thanks for the explanation. :) I'd never been sure of the difference between possessive pronouns and the dative, so it's good to now know.
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-15, 7:36

I hope this isn't too much of a demand for you, arabarra, but I am trying to improve my Basque writing abilities. I wrote something on the thread I just mentioned, and tried thinking in Basque rather than translating from English. I would greatly appreciate corrections and suggestions for sounding more natural. Here is what I said in Basque:

Iraganean, hizkuntza askoz idatzi ari nintzela, niretzako "teklatu maketazioak" sortu nituen diakritikoak daramatzaten letrak idazteko gai ditzadala. Hala ere, bakarrik euskaraz eta ingelesez idazten dut, orduan Ameriketako ingeles maketazio estandarra besterik ez dut erabiltzen. Euskarak diakritiko bat dauka, 'n' letra tiletarekin, baina ez da benetan araua hartaz baliatzea. Beraz, ia inoiz ez dut diakritikoekin idazteko gai izan beharra.



I'll include what I said in English for comparison in case something I said in Basque doesn't make sense, although the English isn't quite the same as the Basque.

In the past, when I was writing in many languages at the same time, I made custom layouts with which I could make tons of letters with diacritics. But now, since all I really write in are English and Basque, I just use the standard US English layout. Basque only has one diacritic, the 'n' with tilde, which isn't even really part of the standard written language, so I rarely need to be able to use diacritics.

When I said "not really part of" I meant that it's not used in very many words - mostly names of people and places. :)

And as a side note, I would write these posts all in Basque, but I don't want to alienate people from the discussion that don't know Basque very well.

Ehun mila esker joan diren urteen zehar eman didazun laguntzagatik, arabarra!
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-15, 16:58

Your translation is very good...

Ehun mila esker joan diren urteen zehar eman didazun laguntzagatik, arabarra!


(ez horregatik, motel... zure euskara mailak urteen bueltan agertzen duen hobekuntza dut esker nahikoa :D )

(but one says "urteetan zehar", "zehar" wants case non )

Now, to your text

Iraganean, hizkuntza askoz idatzi ari nintzela, niretzako "teklatu maketazioak" sortu nituen diakritikoak daramatzaten letrak idazteko gai ditzadala. Hala ere, bakarrik euskaraz eta ingelesez idazten dut, orduan Ameriketako ingeles maketazio estandarra besterik ez dut erabiltzen. Euskarak diakritiko bat dauka, 'n' letra tiletarekin, baina ez da benetan araua hartaz baliatzea. Beraz, ia inoiz ez dut diakritikoekin idazteko gai izan beharra.


I do not know if people uses the word "maketazioa". I'd for sure use "layout" . Perhaps "teklatu egitura" or "teklatu hizkuntz egitura".

niretzako "teklatu maketazioak" sortu nituen diakritikoak daramatzaten letrak idazteko gai ditzadala.


The sentence is complicated and you were nailing it, but you died at the very end (as not so rare with Basque sentence :D ) "ditzadala" is wrong . First of all, the most natural way to say the sentence would be

niretzako "teklatu maketazioak" sortu nituen diakritikoak daramatzaten letrak idazteko gai IZATEKO.

as you normally use the nominalization -TEKO for "in order to", in this case "in order to be able": gai izateko.

If you really want to use the subjunctive (after all the effort to learn it), hm, bad luck. You cannot in this sentence, because YOU created the layouts, for YOU to be able to write diacritical marks. It's the same person. No subjunctive.

I mean, with different persons you have the option
I did X for you to do Y // so that you do Y
* X egin nuen, zuk Y egin zenean
* X egin nuen, zuk Y egiteko
They are equivalent. But in your sentence
I did X, for me to do Y
You have only one option:
X egin nuen, Y egiteko.

If friend of you had done the layouts you could say:
Lagun batek "teklatu maketazioak" sortu Zituen niretzat, diakritikoak daramatzaten letrak idazteko gai IZAN NEDIN.

if you want to use the gai izan form, or

Lagun batek "teklatu maketazioak" sortu Zituen niretzat, diakritikoak daramatzaten letrak idatz NITZAKEEN

if you really a seat in the Basque Language Academy and insist in using the "ahalezko formak" in the subjunctive way. Hard stuff.

Hala ere, bakarrik euskaraz eta ingelesez idazten dut, orduan Ameriketako ingeles maketazio estandarra besterik ez dut erabiltzen.


Not "orduan", but "beraz". Orduan is temporal, beraz is causal.

baina ez da benetan araua hartaz baliatzea.


hm, sounds weird. I'd go with:
baina hartaz baliatzea ez da derrigorrezkoa / baina hartaz baliatzea ez da derrigorrezko araua.

Beraz, ia inoiz ez dut diakritikoekin idazteko gai izan beharra.

Don't forget the partitive: 'beharrik"

Well, that was well written, and the real errors were only in the most ambitious constructions, so, I'd say "well done"!

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby crush » 2014-02-15, 19:16

I'm also watching this thread, though i don't really have much to add for the moment :) (but don't limit yourself to English on my account!)
Guk euskaraz, zuk zergatik ez?

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-15, 21:55

arabarra wrote:(ez horregatik, motel... zure euskara mailak urteen bueltan agertzen duen hobekuntza dut esker nahikoa :D )

Euskara da oso hizkuntza ederra, eta pozik nago nire irakaslea izan zarela.

I do not know if people uses the word "maketazioa". I'd for sure use "layout" . Perhaps "teklatu egitura" or "teklatu hizkuntz egitura".

I tried finding how to say it in Basque, but couldn't find anything, so I just made something up. Basque computer terms are usually quite difficult to find, unfortunately, partly because many don't have Basque translations.

niretzako "teklatu maketazioak" sortu nituen diakritikoak daramatzaten letrak idazteko gai IZATEKO.

as you normally use the nominalization -TEKO for "in order to", in this case "in order to be able": gai izateko.

If you really want to use the subjunctive (after all the effort to learn it), hm, bad luck. You cannot in this sentence, because YOU created the layouts, for YOU to be able to write diacritical marks. It's the same person. No subjunctive.

I see. I didn't know the subjunctive can't be used if the person of each clause is the same. But that does make sense.

Not "orduan", but "beraz". Orduan is temporal, beraz is causal.

hm, sounds weird. I'd go with:
baina hartaz baliatzea ez da derrigorrezkoa / baina hartaz baliatzea ez da derrigorrezko araua.

OK, these make sense! :)

Don't forget the partitive: 'beharrik"

Well, that was well written, and the real errors were only in the most ambitious constructions, so, I'd say "well done"!

I don't often come across a time I need to use the partitive like that, so when I do I usually forget to. But I do understand why I need to use it here.

Thanks! It still took me a bit of looking up words in the dictionary and a bit of grammar to write that, but I do feel my writing ability is improving, especially now that I'm starting to read in Basque more.

crush wrote:I'm also watching this thread, though i don't really have much to add for the moment :) (but don't limit yourself to English on my account!)

It's OK. If I did write all in Basque, it would probably take two or three times as long at this point to write the same thing. :lol: If you ever have any questions about something I or arabarra are talking about in here, feel free to ask in either this thread or yours.
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-16, 12:01

Hi,

I feel a little pedantic about finding errors in your nice appreciating words, but the irakasle in me wouldn't let me otherwise :)

Euskara da oso hizkuntza ederra


That's actually a very, very wrong sentence :) ! Do you see why? Maybe not in the first time you read it, because the sentence is syntactically corrrect... but think of the context: What is the "galdegaia"? (stop me if you're not familiar with the concept of galdegaia, and I'll explain). In your message, it is clear that the galdegaia is undoubtedly "beautiful language", not "Basque". I mean, you are not saying that Basque is beautiful (and not Japanese or Ucranian), but you are just saying that "Basque is beautiful"

Then, "oso hizkuntza ederra" should precede the verb. You have the options"

1) "Euskara oso hizkuntza ederra da"
That'd be the most common way of building the sentence: there is a galdegaia, but it's not stressed out.

2) Oso hizuntza ederra da euskara
Here you are under real emotion for the Basque language and really want to stress its beautifulness.

By the way, note that the sentence was a perfect target for you to have used one of your favorite resources: adding subjectivity by susbtituting NOR forms with NOR-NORK. The sentence sounds more personal with "dugu"

Oso hizkuntza ederra dugu euskara.

This "dugu" does not (necessarily) imply that the speaker considers himself an owner of Basque, but rather implies a sense complicity with the audience: "we all agree that euskara is beautifil, don't we?"

Aio!

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-16, 21:25

Oops. :oops:

Even after all these years I still don't entirely understand emphasis in word order. Maybe I was thinking too much in English when I wrote that, forgetting Basque is almost always written backwards to English. :lol: Sometimes I have this misconception that what is put after the verb is emphasized, probably by influence of English.

Unfortunately the book Standard Basque - A Progressive Grammar does not seem to cover the topic, so I'll have to look elsewhere to find out.
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby crush » 2014-02-17, 1:28

I don't quite get the galdegaia either, i figured it's something you can really only pick up through context/massive amounts of input. I can see how in that sentence it would be stressing Euskara, but it's still not always clear what i want to stress or why.
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-17, 6:47

Rule of thumb for galdegaia: in a neutral (affirmative) sentence, the verb goes at the end. If there is some element that needs to be stressed, the verb goes immediately after that element.

I've found some exhaustive discussion in English,

http://www.euskara-errektoreordetza.ehu ... #galdegaia

but I find somehow confusing...

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby crush » 2014-02-17, 8:23

I found the examples there pretty helpful. I always thought that everything situated in front of the verb was stressed, i didn't realize that the item directly before the verb was the galdegaia.

(Also, if you don't mind, "...I find it...", as find is transitive :whistle:)
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-17, 9:33

(Also, if you don't mind, "...I find it...", as find is transitive :whistle:)


of course :)

happy to hear that the link brought some light :-)

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-18, 5:26

Eskerrik asko lotura hori partekatzeagaitik! Oso erabilgarria da. :)
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-18, 7:55

kar kar kar!!! Izan ere, nahiko harro nago weborri hori aurkitu izanaz. Begiz begiko erasoa sahiatzean (zuzenean "aditz sintetikoen taulak" e. a. Google-en idaztean) porrot galanta jaso nuen. Ezer aurkitu ez. Nere "alderantzizko injeniaritza" berriz (aditzen beraien zerrenda idaztea) primeran ibili da.

Honek oilo-arraultz tankerako problema sortzen du baina, esan nahi duelako aditz sintetikoen taulak aurkitzeko, aldiz aurretik ezagutu behar dituzula!

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-18, 9:02

Bai, badu webgune horrek aditz-taulak eduki behar. Halere, bakarrik galdegaiari buruzkoa zen nik nahi nuen webgune horren informazioa.
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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-18, 10:04

ops! hariak nahastu ditut! :?

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-18, 13:40

Dena den, honako esaldi hau ez dizut ongi ulertu:

Bai, badu webgune horrek aditz-taulak eduki behar


nola itzuliko zenuke ingelesera?

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby arabarra » 2014-02-18, 13:40

Dena den, honako esaldi hau ez dizut ongi ulertu:

Bai, badu webgune horrek aditz-taulak eduki behar


nola itzuliko zenuke ingelesera?

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Re: Dunbots' Basque Questions

Postby Lauren » 2014-02-18, 18:31

I meant to say "Yes, that website does need to have verb tables"
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