Bizkaiera, Batua, etc...

ortzadar
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Bizkaiera, Batua, etc...

Postby ortzadar » 2008-03-25, 2:15

Kaixo berriz,

I was reading another internet forum in Basque and some of the posts were written in Bizkaiera rather than Batua (or I guess so from the posters' locations). Based on what I read, I have a few questions...

1. Is there a standardised Bizkaiera grammar/spelling? (and for the other dialects too). With my limited Batua knowledge, I noticed some grammatical differences, such as: -egaz > -arekin (?), erantzungo dizut > erantzungotzut, etc, but also a lot of just spelling differences, like: naz > naiz, be > ere, eztakit > ez dakit, eitten > egiten, badekozu > badakizu, etc.

Is there a "proper" of writing in the different dialects or do people just write exactly as they speak? (In which case, I guess that the spelling can vary even amongst people from the same town?). If I wrote in Spanish, say: "pos k va, ta mu ben, aber k dise tu ermano", that might be exactly how I speak (seeing as Spanish is written phonetically like Basque), but it would be considered pretty terrible Spanish/chat-speak. Is it possible to write/speak "incorrectly" in your own Basque dialect?

2. How does Batua really sound to Euskaldun zaharra ears? From the little I've read on the topic, I get the impression it sounds kind of ugly, but I'd really like to hear some more opinions on that. Do you think that Batua will eventually replace the dialects, and do you think that they could/should incorporate more stuff from the dialects into Batua, and if so, what?

3. Can anyone recommend any books or resources for learning Bizkaiera? :P

Eskerrik asko!

arabarra
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Postby arabarra » 2008-03-26, 11:24

kaixo ortzadar,

ikusten dut plazako euskaraz interesatuta zabiltzala. Ondo! Azken buruan, motibazio pilo bat beharko duzu eguneroko euskararekin moldatzeko, ez baita gauza erraza. Batetik, euskararen egoera soziolinguistiko zaildua dela eta, oso alde handia dago euskara akademikotik kaleko -benetako?- euskararaino. Euskara akademikoaren moldeak oraindik ez daude guztiz tinkatuta, eta gutxitan erabiltzen da hiztunen arteko harremanetan. Sarriagotan erabiltzen da norabide bakarreko komunikazioan: telebista, egunkaria, irratia eta abar . Honek murrizten ditu bere aukerak hiztunen sorkuntzaz aberastu eta garatzeko. Dena dela, denboraren poderioz gero eta zabalduago dago euskara akademikoaren erabilera jatorrizko etzituen hainbat kontextutan, hiztunen arteko komunikazioaren esparru gehiagotan bere lekua hartuz. Honekin batera, garai batean zurruntasun kutsu -edo kirats- hura desagertuz edo gutxienean leunduz doa. Geroz ta biziagoa dago euskara batua.

I'll continue in broken English, as other visitors may be interested... -it's funny to think that some people in the broad word may be interested in microdialectal variations of a tiny language-, and actually I was drifting away from the original point: bizkaiera. First of all, you should notice that the dialectal distribution that you find in, say wikipedia, etc, is just a coarse approximation to reality. Basque is much-much more fragmented that state languages as Spanish, French, English, and its variations are surprising huge accross the country. Even inside a dialect variations from eskualde to eskualde ("comarca", "county") can be very significant. Specially bizkaiera, I would say. Bizkaiera is (along with zuberera) the most divergent from other euskalkis, and also the one with the biggesrt intern variability (personal appreciation).


As a result, a standard "bizkaiera" is hard to define: common verbs in Arratia are not known in Arrasate. At the end of the message I attach some bibliography describing efforts to create a standard for bizkaiera.


Ah! And you made a very cute question about the possibility of making "incorrect fonetical transcriptions"... Actually, the answer would be: yes, it's possible, and very specially in the case of bizkaiera! The reason is that in bizkaiera the sounds /z/ and /s/ are both pronounced as /s/. Additionaly /ts/ and /tz/ are also not distinguished, but in this case the surviving sound is /tz/. Still, the transcriptions keep the original /z/ and /ts/ sounds (I see it when I go to Bizkaia and read local newspapers, or transcriptions from bizkaitar bertsolariak)


So, a correct version of
BATUA: otso horiek ikusi dituzu?
would be
Bizk: horreek otso horreek ikusi dozuz?

and in phonetical transcription (or SMS-Basque, if you like :)
orreek otzo orreek ikusi dosus?



By the way, some comments on your observations: "Badekozu" is actually "badaukazu", not "badakizu". And short forms as esangotsut etc are not really special to bizkaiera. Other dialects and batua as well show them. I would my self say "kontakoidazu" instead of "kontatuko didazu" in informal speech. What is special to bizkaiera is the verb "deutsut" instead of "dizut". The verb paradigma has a very special flavor in bizkaiera




Well, looks like there is an "official" bizkaiera, stablished by the Basque Gouvernment:
Arejita, A; Etxebarria, J.M.; Irazola, J.M.; Uriarte, J. (1985), Bizkaieraren Idaztarauak. Gasteiz: Euskal Herriko Autonomi Elkartearen Administrazioa.

It justs gives standards to be followed by Institutions referred to Bizkaia, as the Diputation or the city councils, but other organizations have tried to get an unified standard for the bizkaiera from a more social and academical point of view: the now disappeared Basque newspaper "Egunkaria", the Centre Of Studies Labayru, different scholars...





As for the bibliography, personally, in order to get familiar with bizkaian ways I used
* Irazola, J.M. (1985), Euskal aditza: bizkaiera eta batua. Bilbo: Hizkuntza Eskola.
and mainly:
* Hezkuntza, Unibertsitate eta Ikerketa Saila. (1989), Bizkaierazko Joskera. Gasteiz: Euskal Herriko Autonomi Elkartearen Administrazioa. Hezkuntza, Unibertsitate eta Ikerketa Saila.


This bibliography is taken from the website:
http://www.bizkaiera.com/
which is wonderful!

ortzadar
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Postby ortzadar » 2008-03-28, 5:11

Kaixo arabarra,

Mila esker berriz zure erantzunagatik (eta bizkaierari buruzko liburu gomendioengatik ere bai). Egia esan, lehen irakurrian ez nuen guztiz ulertu euskaraz idatzi zenuena, baina, hiztegia begiratu eta gero, orain gutxi gorabehera baietz uste dut.
Oso interesgarriak dira aipatu dituzun euskararen egoera soziolinguistikari buruzko gauzak (<ez zait oso ondo iruditzen esaldi hori). "Geroz ta biziagoa dago euskara batua" ...badakizu, hitz hauek bihotz ematen didate. Egun batean euskaldunekin beren hizkuntzan benetan hitz egitea gustatuko litzaidake eta euskalki bat ikastea (urrutitik) ia ezinezkoa izango litzatekela uste dut, niretzat behintzat.
Oraindik denbora gutxi daramat euskara ikasten nere kabuz eta pozten naiz hizkuntza xarmagarri hau ikasi ahal izatea, nahiz eta nik ikasten dudana ez erabili askotan kalean. Baina ea pixka bat euskalkien gainean ere ikas dezakedan (batez ere, bizkaiera ;)).

Buf, espero dut ez dagoela oso gaizki idatzi dudana. Edozein zuzenketa ongi etorria izango da, noski.
Arabarra, eskerrik asko beste gauzak argitzeagatik ere bai.
Ea hurrengoan euskaraz pixka bat gehiago idatzi ahal dudan...

Laster arte!

arabarra
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Postby arabarra » 2008-03-30, 15:44

hara! sinesgaitza zait euskararekin hain denbora gutxi eman duzula euskara ikasten... nahiko ondo moldatzen zarela ematen du. Beharbaba zenbait egituratan baliabideen nolabaiteko murriztasuna nabaritzen da (edo nabarituko luke sasimaisuarenak egiten dituen batek).

Dena den eztakit posiblea ote den "euskalki bat" ikastea, euskalkiak, nola azaldu ba, "abstraktuegiak" direlako. Bizkaieraren ezaugarri orokorrak ikas zenitzake, baina euskalkiaren eremuan eskualdez eskualde aldaketa ikaragarriak topatuko dituzu. Esan nahi da Bermeoko eta Aramaioko hizkerak, biak zalantzarik gabe bizkaieraren barne lerratzen direlarik ere, elkarrekiko ezberdintasun itzelak dituztela. Bizkaiera ikasi barik, egin litekeena zera da, herri edo eskualderen bateko hizkera ikastea, hobeto herri haziren batekoa, helduleku ederra emango lizuke horrek... Adibidez, bizkaiera interesatzen bazaizu, beharbada Gernikakoa edo Arrasatekoa... Egun hauetan posiblea da toki bateko euskararen gaineko informazio piloak biltzea, tokian tokiko hizkerak aztertzen dituzten liburu berriak etengabean argitaratzen dira-eta...

Zergatik interesatzen zaizu bizkaiera, hain zuzen? Bizipen gogorrak gustuko, agian? Edo birjin miresgarriren bati agindutako eskaintza ote?

ortzadar
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Postby ortzadar » 2008-04-03, 2:55

Kaixo arabarra,
Sorry for not replying sooner (and not in Basque :?).
My interest in Bizkaiera is not really due to a sadomasochistic desire or even a promised offering to a wonderous virgin (although it would be a more interesting explanation :p). In fact, I don't really know the reason why, I guess it's just another strange mania of mine.
It's really interesting what you say about being able to get books on the way Basque is spoken even in individual towns. I didn't realise it was so "abstraktuegiak" as you say.
For the moment I think I'll just concentrate on trying to learn batua, and see if I can maybe pick up some of the dialectal stuff on the way.
Well, I only have a few minutes online at the moment so sorry for such a brief reply. I'll be back again soon though. :)
Thanks again for your help and the interesting info (you definitely seem like a real teacher and not a pseudo one).
Agur bat,
ortzadar

arabarra
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Postby arabarra » 2008-04-04, 15:49

Thanks again for your help and the interesting info (you definitely seem like a real teacher and not a pseudo one).


Wow, a real teacher...you mean, like Obi-wan Kenobi, or Yoda, or even Dumbledoore? You flatter me too much, but I'm pleased if I could you introduce you into the ways of the Fo..., the Bizkaiera I mean ("bizkaiera is overall around you... feel it, young ortzadar").

Now seriously, I also think the approach "from batua to euskalkiak" is the soft (and probably more appropriate way) for the newcomers into Basque. Just from the point of view of the language construction, Batua is deliciously regular, so that is easy to aprehend all the rules, and then become slowly familiar with the dialectal forms of these rules, that tend to be less regular. Furtherly, learning batua you'll probably learn inadvertingly many euskalkiak it one. When you learn that "bring" it's said "eraman", that is a good beginnig to get acquainted with some basic Basque. In a later stage you'll start to get synonims, and someone will tell you that "eroan" is a synonim of "eraman"... You'll fell reacher... and it a later stage, probably you'll find by yourself that "eroan", what you considered as synonim of "eraman" is just the bizkaiera form of it...

Now it's up to you to find other such pairs of words...


:wink:


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