Ahalera... una duda

ortzadar
Posts: 13
Joined: 2008-03-05, 22:25
Real Name: ortzadar
Gender: female
Location: none

Ahalera... una duda

Postby ortzadar » 2008-03-05, 23:05

Kaixo! =)

I'm hoping someone can clear up this doubt I have regarding the Basque "ahalera"...

Okay, in the grammar book I'm using it gives:

Edozeinek egin dezake hori, +
Edozeinek egiten ahal du hori

...as equivalent sentences. But it's the first time I've come across the construction "egiten ahal du", I would have thought it would be "egin ahal du".

My doubt is whether "[participle] ahal du/da" is grammatically correct (I have actually seen it used in a different course) and, if so, in what way is it different from "[imperfective participle] ahal du/da".

I know that you would form the equivalent of the perfect tense using "[participle] ahal izan du/da", and that also there is "[participle] ahal izaten du/da", but I'm not very sure about the previous ones.

Thanks a lot for any help.

arabarra
Posts: 504
Joined: 2007-06-08, 14:16
Gender: male
Location: Basel
Country: CH Switzerland (Schweiz / Suisse / Svizzera / Svizra)

Postby arabarra » 2008-03-06, 12:13

Kaixo Ortzadar.

I don't think it's correct (or appropriate) in batua. However
I'm not aware of the precise position of the Basque Academy on this issue. What I know is that "egin ahal du" is the standard "batua" form, while "egiten ahal du" is a dialectal form widely used at least in Nabarre.



Other nabarrisms (like the future endings in en "izanen", "emanen", etc, or typical nabarre variations of some common words "erran", "bertze"... "ortzadar" :D) do not enter into conflict with standard batua and are accepted as legitimate variations of the standard inside the batua.

Hope it helped...

arabarra
Posts: 504
Joined: 2007-06-08, 14:16
Gender: male
Location: Basel
Country: CH Switzerland (Schweiz / Suisse / Svizzera / Svizra)

Postby arabarra » 2008-03-06, 12:16

now I am curious... which grammar are you using?

ortzadar
Posts: 13
Joined: 2008-03-05, 22:25
Real Name: ortzadar
Gender: female
Location: none

Postby ortzadar » 2008-03-10, 6:07

Kaixo arabarra,

Eskerrik asko zure erantzunagatik (eta barkatu lehenago ez erantzuteagatik).
So then "egin ahal du" is the standard Batua form. That is interesting because those sentences I quoted come from the Bakarka course, which was published by the Basque government, I think. I was a bit surprised when I first saw "egiten ahal du" because in a different course I had looked at it used the other construction, which I'd seen in some other texts too.

At the moment I'm studying the ahalera zer-nori-nork, nor-nork and zer-nori tables in present and past and, I have to admit, some of the conjugations seem slightly bizarre to me... for example: zeniezazkiguketen(!) I'm curious to know if in everyday language would it be more common to use the constructions with ahal instead? Are there times when one construction is preferred over the other?

By the way, thanks for the info about the other navarrisms (I'm glad that "ortzadar" is one of them :)).

Well, I'm sure I'll have some more doubts soon, so if you're still about in the forum, that would be great. Maybe we can bring this place back to life?

Ah, eta gauza bat gehiago: hemendik aurrera euskaraz bakarrik idazten saiatuko naiz. :oops:

Beno, aste ona izan eta agur!

arabarra
Posts: 504
Joined: 2007-06-08, 14:16
Gender: male
Location: Basel
Country: CH Switzerland (Schweiz / Suisse / Svizzera / Svizra)

Postby arabarra » 2008-03-10, 21:02

Kaixo Ortzadar,


well, I do not know if we can bring this place to life... People appear and disappear in the forum according to their moods an interest of the moment... it happens frequently that some becomes suddenly interested in Basque and makes thousands of questions and comments along a week and then... just disappears.

But actually it's fine that way. Curiosity is one of my favorite vices, and I can understand perfectly that someone gets curious about some aspect of Basque, and shortly afterwards his or her curiosity develops in some other direction.

About your question... it is a difficult one, as it is really dependent on the territory (and in each territory the ahalera forms are different: the construction rule is more or less the same, but the root is different. The Batua root is merely the guipuzcoan one). In any case, many complicate-sounding ahalera forms are not uncommon in every day language, even in the nor-nori-nork table: "niezazkizueke". But actually, I would say the general tendency is to avoid "complicated" ahalera forms and substitute it with ahal/ezin forms. Or even with -T(Z)EA + egon/izan forms, especially for "iraganezko ahalera"-forms (i.e. instead of "ezin niezaizuekeen gehiago eman" a basque speaker would probably prefer "ez nuen gehiago ematerik" or "ezin nizuen gehiago eman").

Not-so-complicated ahalera forms are broadly used: ninteke, liteke, nezake, zezezakeat... But as I said before you should expect to hear the dialectal forms hereof in the every day conversations: leike, daiket, ditzazkezute, etc. The exception is perhaps the nor-nori forms (lekizkizueke...). I have have the impression that they are not so commonly used in the informal speaking, even for the simplest flexions...

In any case I am a euskaldunberri. I'm fluent but it is not my mother tonge. Plus, I do not even live in the Basque Country any more since many many years, so that my vision of every day basque can be biased. Perhaps OrE visits this thread and leaves some comment about his views on the subject. (OrE, anima zaitez, gizona!)

Besterik gabe, "Bakarka"-rekin sorte ona opa nahi dizut ...metodo beraxe erabili nuen nik euskarari gogoz ekitea erabaki nuenean, orain dela..uuh... orain dela luze-luze, geroztik urak bide handia egin du...

Bestela forotik maiz pasatzen naiz, eta beti eztabaidatzeko borondatez, beraz zalantzarik edo bestelako mintzagairik bururatu ezkero, azaltzea besterik ez duzu...

Gero arte!

User avatar
Zoroa
Posts: 2025
Joined: 2002-12-13, 16:53
Gender: male
Location: NYC
Country: FR France (France)

Postby Zoroa » 2008-03-11, 16:30

I don't know if it answers your question but:

ahal is usually followed by the participle of the verb, and that's the way you will find it most of the time. However, the imperfective participle can be found in literary forms.

Zoroa ;)
Deviens qui tu es !
Nietzsche "Ainsi parlait Zarathoustra"

ortzadar
Posts: 13
Joined: 2008-03-05, 22:25
Real Name: ortzadar
Gender: female
Location: none

Postby ortzadar » 2008-03-25, 2:08

Kaixo...

Barkatu (berriro) orain arte erantzun ez izana, azkenaldian ezin bainaiz konektatu. :(
Unfortunately I've not been able to study much lately, so (despite what I said previously :oops:) I'll carry on writing in English for the time being...

Arabarra & Zoroa, thanks a lot for your replies.
Arabarra, cheers especially for what you said =). (Hey, so you used the same course too, cool). At the moment I'm just trying to revise everything I've learnt until now before moving onto the next part.

It's interesting that some of those complicated ahalera forms are used in everyday language, I wasn't sure if it would be so. I've (more or less) managed to memorise all the different ahalera tables, so hopefully will start putting them into practice sooner or later...

Okay, I have no more questions about the ahalera for the moment, but I'm going to create a couple of other threads about some different topics. Hope to see you there. ;)


Return to “Basque (Euskara)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest