Basque beginners' course

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Zoroa
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Postby Zoroa » 2007-03-22, 1:18

The small words that will change your life.

Today we'll learn a bunch of small words which can help you "modalize" you sentences, as modal auxiliaries in English.

They all form the same way. They go just before the auxiliary for interrogaitve and positive sentences, just after the auxiliary for negative sentences.

1. Ari

Ari translates the famous "be going to". Usually used with Verb + ten and izan auxiliary.

Egiten ari naiz.
Ez naiz ari egiten.

Note that Ari can also mean "to work".

Nire kotxea ez da ari: my car's not working

2.Behar

A must know because it translates the word "must" / "need", etc...

Used with the normall participle of the verb and ukan (even if the verb requires izan)

Hara joan behar dut: I have to go there
Nik ez dut behar hara joan: I do not have to go there

Note that the verb goes at the end of the sentence

3.Ohi

To be used to, "usually"

Hondartzara joan ohi dut: I am used to going to the beach, I usually go to the beach...

4.Omen

Not to be mistaken with its English equivalent.

Transalates "I have heard that", "is heard / said to be" (rumour)

Euskadi eder herria omen da: it's said that Euskadi is a nice country.

These words will definitely make your expression richer. We will use these words progressively to fully appreciate all their meanings.

Zoroa ;)
Deviens qui tu es !
Nietzsche "Ainsi parlait Zarathoustra"

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Postby Zoroa » 2007-03-25, 15:45

Well, you have learnt many things so far, and covered a lot of the aspects of Basque grammar. Just before the next big leap, i.e. past tenses, let's have a few lessons about easy things!!!

Today we are going to speak about a very important word in Basque, which refers to many things. It's buru, which means head, but has also other secrets.

1. Do not take your buru yourself

Buru is used in Basque to express reflexive pronouns

Presoak bere burua garbit du: The prisoner (has) killed himself

Nire burari esan diot: I have said to myself

Etc...

2. Now take it to the instrumental case...

Remember the instrumental case:

Buruz: which means "with a head", but is used to translate about (+ nori case) or towards (+ nora case)

Liburuaren titulua "Mutili buruz" da: the title of the book is "About a boy"

Donostiaren hirira buruz ba al zoazte?: Do you go towards the city of San Sebastian ?



Zoroa ;)
Deviens qui tu es !

Nietzsche "Ainsi parlait Zarathoustra"

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Postby more--than--words » 2007-03-25, 17:08

This is really helpful, as I attempted Basque about a year ago, but found the resources I used very unclear.
However, (me being stupid), could you please clarify the pronunciations of the letter <b>g</b>?
Thank you!
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Postby Zoroa » 2007-03-26, 2:12

Welcome here!

The letter g is no big deal. Just pronounce it like the g of "go".

Zoroa ;)
Deviens qui tu es !

Nietzsche "Ainsi parlait Zarathoustra"

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Postby Txalapartari » 2007-12-05, 0:41

Mila esker ikasgaiengatik, Zoroa.

I began to learn in November 07 and am fascinated with Euskara. I read and understood the most of your previous lessons. I'dd be pleased to read more in near future.

At the same time I have a simple question. If I take the word <b>ahozko</b> in to pieces, I get <b>aho</b> + instrumental suffix <b>-z</b> + genitive/locative suffix <b>-ko</b>. Am I right?

On the other side, thw wiki article about <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_grammar#Adjectival_-ko" target="_blank">Euskara</a> claims an adjectival suffix <i>-ko</i>

I am some confused. Are both suffixes the same?

I assume <b>ahozko</b> is (like English <b>oral</b>) not comparable, or?

Laster arte!
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Postby Txalapartari » 2007-12-05, 2:08

By the way, which of these cases are not applicable for persons?

01. NONGO - Separativ / Genitiv-Locativ
02. NORENTZAT - Benefaktiv / Destinativ
03. NOREKIN - Komitativ / Assoziativ
04. NORENGATIK - Motivativ
05. NON / NORENGAN - Inessiv
06. NONDIK / NORENGANDIK - Ablativ
07. NORA / NORENGANA - Allativ
08. NORAKO / NORENGANAKO - (Destinativ ?)
09. NORANTZ / NORENGANANTZ - Direktiv
10. NORAINO - Approximativ
11. NORENGANAINO - Terminativ
12. NOLA / ZEREZ - Instrumental
13. NORIK - Partitiv
14. NORTZAT - Prolativ

Eskerrik asko berriro.
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Postby arabarra » 2007-12-06, 10:20

Aupa, Txalapartari,

zer moduz?

yes, the "ko" in "ahozko" is doing an adjectival function.The word "ahoz" would work as an adverb.

"Bere onarpena ahoz azaldu zuen, (ez idatziz)" (He/she expresed his acceptance orally, not by writing"


With the suffix -ko, you tie it to a noun

"Ahozko onarpena, (ez idatzizkoa)"

An oral acceptance (not a written one)


Can be confusing, as -ko is normally described as an genitive/locative suffix... Personally, I like to think of this adjectival function a veeeeery abstract way of locative... An "oral acceptance" as an "acceptance IN the oral way"
leuchtet es ein?

Nongo, Non, Nondik, Nora, Norako, Norantz, Noraino and Nola/Zerez do not apply to persons.

The case "Norik" is funny.... There is a partitive with ending -(r)ik, but the word "Norik" is never used. However, this case does not apply to persons, (as implied in the very idea of a partititive).


ondo segi

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Postby Txalapartari » 2007-12-08, 15:51

Aupa arabarra, ondo naiz, eta zu?

Eskerrik asko azaltzearentzat. Es leuchtet ein :) . Pozten naiz. Ein deutschsprachiger Kenner unter uns.

NORIK was my fault. It should read ZERIK. Apparently ZERIK and Instrumental can be used for living beings, too. <a href="http://www.eibarko-euskara.com/pdf/deklinabidia%20liburua3.pdf" target="_blank">PDF file page 45/46</a>

Next question. What is the difference between NOREKIN (Soziatibo) and NOREKIKO (Soziatibo berdeklinatua)? ber means same/only but as a compound word it conveys nothing to me.

Beside NOREKIKO there are two other cases, I can't do anything with, either.

1. NORENTZAKO - Destinatibo berdeklinatua
2. NORAINOKO - Muga adlatibo berdeklinatua

Source: http://www.eoidonheo.org/euskera_programas-4_e.html
-----

Some declension tables include also the Hurbila, Jokagabea and Jokatua forms. What do these forms signify?

Nochmals, vielen Dank arabarra

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Postby arabarra » 2007-12-09, 16:18

Eskerrik asko azaltzearentzat.


..azaltzeagatik...

(eta eskerrik asko zuri interesa hartzeagatik :wink: )

Well, I think I will need several entries to answer... you have something like a magical gift to notice precisely the most delicate details of the language!

In principle, in norekiKO the KO particle is exactly like the KO in ahozKO. It transforms adverbs into nouns:

Mikelek jarrera zakarra dauka nirekin ari denean.

(Mikel has a rough "Einstellung" when he speaks with me)

Mikelen NirekiKO jarrera zakar samara da.

(Mikel´s "Einstellung" towards me is rather rough).

But actually that is not the way the case Norekiko is normally used. The actual use has evolved from the idea above to express itself the idea of "Einstellung jemandem gegenüber" (I`ll thank you if you have an english translation for this expression... "position towards someone", perhaps?). And in an adverbial way. The real sentence you would actually hear is:

Mikelek jarrera zakarra dauka nirekiko

It´s difficult, as I said it is a little detail (but precissely because of that I find it beautiful).

Soziatibo berdeklinatua? Well, I`m not so good with formal grammar jargon. However in this case the ber- in berdeklinatua means "again" (like in "berriz" -again-, which I guess comes from "berri" -new, anew-). It is not the ber- from "bera" meaning same/only. So: "berdeklinatua" is "twice declinsed". Upon the declension "Norekin" you add the ending "-ko". And in this particular case, the result is something more than the addition of the two cases...

norentzako and norainoko are easier. In these cases, ko is just converting an adverb into a noun

Ilea gerriraino heltzen zaio

Her hair growns down to her waist.

Gerrirainoko ilea

Hair up to the waist.


Opari hau zuretzat da

This present is for you

Zuretzako oparia auntz batek jan du. Sentitzn dut.

A goat ate the present intended for you. Sorry.


"Zerik" is never used as word in a normal conversation, I guess "zerik" is just grammar jargon used to give an interrogative adverb to the partitive case, just to paralelize the nomenclature ("Non" for the locative, "Nor" for the nominative, etc). But no one would ask

-[s]Zerik[/s] ez dago?
-Ogirik ez dago

"what is not here?"
"There is no bread"


Ogirik is a correct, normal use of the partitive, but [s]Zerik[/s] is not...


Now, for the Hurbila, Jokagabea and Jokatua, I think I know what it is, but I do not want to risk giving wrong information. Can you find me an example of those declensions?

Laister arte

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Postby Txalapartari » 2007-12-10, 23:27

..azaltzeagatik...

esker zuzentzearengatik ;)

Is there any rule for singular ablative-suffixes when one can use -(e)tik and when -dik?
Maybe -dik, if the word ends with -n?

The same question goes for singular inessive -suffixes -(e)an / -(e)n, too.

some examples for hurbila, jokagabea and jokatua:
http://www.fontaneda.net/Idazki/deklinabide.pdf document-page 41 / acrobat-page 11

I would translate "Einstellung jemandem gegenüber" as an "attitude towards someone".

Esker eta hurrena arte!
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Postby arabarra » 2007-12-11, 14:30

Kaixo berriz Txalapartari,

"Esker" is not fully correct. Basque People is full of gratitude and good feelings, and we do not conform ourselves with a simple, civilian "thanks". We need to express at least many thanks (eskerrik asko, esker aunitz), if not thousand of them (mila esker, milesker)...

The "declensions" you mention are interesting. Actually I would say they are not real declensions in the most usual meaning, but the author of the report has put them under a roof along with the normal ones.

Jokatua and jokagabea ("conjugated" and "no conjugated"respectively) apply to verbs. They're used when the case applies subordinate sentence. Gramatical agreement of the subordinate to the case expresses at the verb.

The jokagabea is the trivial case: the verb is nominalized with the suffix T(Z)E and then the case suffix is added.

For instance, when you say "mila esker azaltzea(ren)gatik" you're using this jokagabea form. (To my eyes is unnecessary to introduce this concept: if you consider "azaltze" as a noun, you can use the normal rule).

The jokatua is employed when the subordinate sentence has a conjugated verb.
Zer ekarri du aitaK? (What did father bring?)
Aitak txakurra ekarri du.
Txakurra (dog) is the answer to "What?"


Zer esan du aitak? (What did father said?)
Aitak eguraldi ona duguLA esan du (Father said THAT we have a beautiful weather).
Eguraldi ona dugu is the stand-alone form for "we have a beautiful weather". If we want to use this sentence as the answer to a ZER? question, we have to add the -LA atzizkia (suffix) to the verb.



It is an interesting perspective specially if you already have a deep insight into the language and want to analyze it, but I do not know if it is really pedagogical for a foreigner. It can be even misleading.


The "hurbila" is much less complicated: you use this form when refering to a group to express closeness or even inclusion into the group:

Frantziarrek kroasanak jaten dituzte.
The French eat croissants.

Euskaldunok taloak jaten ditugu.
We Basque eat "talo"s.

(talo is a traditional basque sandwich. But I like croissants too)


And Yep, "attitude" was the word I was looking for...

hope it helped!

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Postby Txalapartari » 2007-12-13, 23:38

Oh, now I see. There is a page 7. You replied. Since my last message I reloaded casually the previous page 6 and looked unavailingly for a reaction :)

Berriz eskerrik asko aholku baliagarriarengatik, Arabarra

Bai, zure zehazte asko onerako nintzen.

Baina, honi aipatze dagokionez

... but I do not know if it is really pedagogical for a foreigner. ...


I need to inform you, that I don't feel like a foreigner. As one can see below, one of my hearts beats patriotically for Euskal Herria ;)

Image

Anyway, here is my next plea:
I choosed the method learning by doing and started to build a hiztegi Alemaniako wikiztegian.

Adibidez: <a href="http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/mahai" target="_blank">Mahai</a> eta <a href="http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/aulki" target="_blank">Aulki</a>

I would appreciate it, if you could check <a href="http://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Benutzer:Txalapartari/Temp" target="_blank">these declention tables</a> for substantives. The most should be correct exept, maybe the Inessive and Separative (Locative-Genitive) cases, where I'm not sure with the suffixes as I mentioned in my previous message.

Mila esker aurretiaz eta laster arte.
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Postby Txalapartari » 2007-12-14, 0:39

P.S. Today I read up on Talo and added this food to my 100 things to eat-List. The Laz people (Laz Country = Turkish occupied Eastern Black Sea coastal region) cook a very similar food.

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Postby arabarra » 2007-12-14, 14:32

Servus, Txalapartari!

I checked your wikiztegiak ( the photo selected to illustrate the concept of mahaia/"table" is phantastic)... I'm impressed by your enthusiam, that is a lot of methodic work! Well, I'm pleased if I can help you.

So, a couple of comments:

you mention "kadari" as synonim of "aulki" (chair). You probably mean "kadira" (interestingly the same word as in Catalan, and not known in Spanish. There is a number of old words connecting Basque and Catalan via Occitan, "kadira/cadira" could be one of these?).


The declension tables are correct except for the plural of the nouns ending in -a. In these cases, addition of a suffix starting with a vowel elliminates the -a of the noun:

it should be: Abadesak, abadesek (not abadesaek), abadesei (not abadesaei), etc...


Now, about your sentences in Basque. You try longer sentences now: well done! Of course, the longer the sentence, the higher the risk for mistakes. But of course we take a mistake simply as a good chance to have some fun commenting gramamar, don't we?

"Bai, zure zehazte asko onerako nintzen."


I'm not sure about the intended meaning of the sentence ("Many of your explanations were helpful for me", maybe?). In any case, seems that you really like the Basque nominalization form for verbs (Zehaztu-> zehazte), or "aipatze" below, so I'm afraid I'm going to disappoint you: they do not always do the trick.

Nominalizations are commonly used to substitute subordinate sentences:

I want FOR YOU TO EXPLAIN

Nik ZUK AZALTZEA nahi dut

But "explain -> explanation" is better translated in the normal wording by "azaldu -> azalPENA".

This suffix substantivizes the result/product of the verb: aitortu -> aitormena, hitzartu -> hitzamena, garatu->garapena, aurreratu ->aurrerapena.


I wish you luck with your talo-challenge... Do not think that will be easy: nowadays, and depending on the concrete place, they sell them very rarely (and for extravagant prizes!). In my hometown, for instance, only in traditional festivals and in no more than one or two stands...

gero arte

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Postby Txalapartari » 2007-12-21, 14:54

Servus, arabarra,

eskerrik asko zure erantzungatik.

Ich moechte lediglich mitteilen, dass ich z.Z. viel Material habe und in meiner Freizeit dabei bin u.A. intensiv die Sprache zu lernen. Falls erstmal von mir keine fragen mehr kommen, soll nicht heissen, dass ich irgendwie Interesse verloren habe. Wenn's dir passt und ich an einer oder anderer Stelle nicht weiterkommen sollte, wuerde ich gerne weiterhin unregelmaessig fragen stellen.

Kennst du uebrigens das Buch: <a href="http://www.amazon.de/Baskische-Grammatik-Christiane-Bendel/dp/3875484193/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1198248432&sr=8-3" target="_blank">Baskische Grammatik</a>. Wuerdest du es empfehlen?

Bide batez (By the way?), how would you say "pumpkin seed oil" ala "Styrian (Estiriako?) pumpkin (kalabaza?) seed (mamia) oil (olio)" euskaraz? Mila esker.

Agur! Gero arte.
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Postby cameron » 2007-12-23, 17:34

Alan King (Colloquial Basque p.14 says " excessive use of expressions like [mesedez and eskerrik asko] conveys the message that one is distancing oneself socially from the person addressed. Avoid the temptation to use m. and e.a. every time you would say please and thankyou in English.'
)

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Postby arabarra » 2008-01-10, 14:57

Natürlich, Txalapartari... dabei helfe ich dir immer gerne! Ich überprüfe gelegentlich, ob es neue Einträge gibt, also, feel free!

Das Buch kenne ich leider nicht... aber auf deine Kunden-rezension in Amazon freue ich mich schon!

And my translation would be the most simple one: kalabaza-olioa.

In any case, there is a problem: "mamia" is just the contrary of "seeds"!... "Mamia" would be the pulp of the fruit rather than the seeds. Is is possible to obtain oil hereof?


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