„Teni trankviligi kaj…” = „Keep calm and…”?

PtrTlr
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„Teni trankviligi kaj…” = „Keep calm and…”?

Postby PtrTlr » 2014-06-07, 15:23

Hello.
I have found this text: Teni trankviligi kaj paroli Esperanto (e.g. here), which I think is supposed to be an Esperanto version of the well known series of slogans Keep calm and…. The only word here that I am not worried about is kaj. The rest troubles me.

  1. Is teni trankviligi not a poor calque of keep calm? Is it not incomprehensible to any Esperantist unless they can speak some English?
  2. Teni is transitive, but does it ever take an infinitive of a verb as its object (teni fari ion)?
  3. Trankviligi is transitive too, but what does it mean here? To calm who/what?
  4. Why paroli Esperanto, not paroli Esperanton or paroli esperante?
  5. And last but not least, why infinitives (teni, paroli), not imperatives (tenu, parolu)?

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JuxtapositionQMan
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Re: „Teni trankviligi kaj…” = „Keep calm and…”?

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-06-07, 16:43

PtrTlr wrote:Is teni trankviligi not a poor calque of keep calm? Is it not incomprehensible to any Esperantist unless they can speak some English?
Somewhat.
PtrTlr wrote:Teni is transitive, but does it ever take an infinitive of a verb as its object (teni fari ion)?
Every verb can be followed by an infinitive.
PtrTlr wrote:Trankviligi is transitive too, but what does it mean here? To calm who/what?
I'm guessing it's a more font-compatible "Trankviliĝi". This isn't correct, but I sometimes see it.

"Daŭru trankvile" would be a better match
PtrTlr wrote:[Why paroli Esperanto, not paroli Esperanton or paroli esperante?
3 things:
1: Names of languages end in -a because they imply a following "lingvo". Otherwise, it's a person who speaks that language.
2: Yes, it should be objective/adverbial.
3: Because I'm a disambiguatory freak, I prefer to use Espo/Espa/Espe, but unlike the previous two, this is not required.
PtrTlr wrote:And last but not least, why infinitives (teni, paroli), not imperatives (tenu, parolu)?
That was the first thing I noticed. I'm honestly thinking that whoever came up with this just put it into Google Translate.

Therefore, the title should be more like:
Daŭru Trankvile kaj Parolu Espan.
Well, that was a thing.
speak: [flag=]en[/flag][flag=]eo[/flag]
learning: [flag=]fr[/flag][flag=]de[/flag][flag=]ru[/flag][flag=]pt[/flag][flag=]es[/flag][flag=]ro[/flag][flag=]art-jbo[/flag]
hiatus: [flag=]fi[/flag][flag=]it[/flag][flag=]la[/flag][flag=]wa[/flag][flag=]sv[/flag][flag=]eu[/flag][flag=]zh.Hans[/flag][flag=]is[/flag]
want to learn: [flag=]fo[/flag][flag=]be[/flag][flag=]ko[/flag][flag=]he[/flag][flag=]sw[/flag][flag=]hi[/flag][flag=]tr[/flag][flag=]nl[/flag][flag=]cy[/flag][flag=]hu[/flag]

PtrTlr
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Re: „Teni trankviligi kaj…” = „Keep calm and…”?

Postby PtrTlr » 2014-06-07, 17:18

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:Every verb can be followed by an infinitive.
But you will not find an example of teni with infinitive in a reliable source, will you?

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:Names of languages end in -a because they imply a following "lingvo". Otherwise, it's a person who speaks that language.
Except for Latino, Sanskrito, Urduo, Esperanto itself, and few others.

Anyway, too bad that such poor examples of Esperanto catch attention.

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Re: „Teni trankviligi kaj…” = „Keep calm and…”?

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-06-07, 17:56

PtrTlr wrote:
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:Every verb can be followed by an infinitive.
But you will not find an example of teni with infinitive in a reliable source, will you?
This is something I do not understand: why do people ask for such overspecific things in a reliable source? I don't know any "reliable" sources, let alone one that uses that specific constuction somewhere! Heck, I don't even know what people mean by a "reliable source"! Maybe I should start with that then: what is a "reliable source" in this situation?

PtrTlr wrote:
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:Names of languages end in -a because they imply a following "lingvo". Otherwise, it's a person who speaks that language.
Except for Latino, Sanskrito, Urduo, Esperanto itself, and few others.
No, they don't.
Latina/Sanskrita/Urdua/Esperanta(Espa)

PtrTlr wrote:Anyway, too bad that such poor examples of Esperanto catch attention.
Kunsentegegegegata.
Well, that was a thing.
speak: [flag=]en[/flag][flag=]eo[/flag]
learning: [flag=]fr[/flag][flag=]de[/flag][flag=]ru[/flag][flag=]pt[/flag][flag=]es[/flag][flag=]ro[/flag][flag=]art-jbo[/flag]
hiatus: [flag=]fi[/flag][flag=]it[/flag][flag=]la[/flag][flag=]wa[/flag][flag=]sv[/flag][flag=]eu[/flag][flag=]zh.Hans[/flag][flag=]is[/flag]
want to learn: [flag=]fo[/flag][flag=]be[/flag][flag=]ko[/flag][flag=]he[/flag][flag=]sw[/flag][flag=]hi[/flag][flag=]tr[/flag][flag=]nl[/flag][flag=]cy[/flag][flag=]hu[/flag]

PtrTlr
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Re: „Teni trankviligi kaj…” = „Keep calm and…”?

Postby PtrTlr » 2014-06-07, 18:38

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:No, they don't.
Latina/Sanskrita/Urdua/Esperanta(Espa)
What about this:
pmeglingvoj.png
It comes from PMEG (§35.4). I do not know why but I find this source reliable.

And I still do not think teni can go with infinitive.
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JuxtapositionQMan
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Re: „Teni trankviligi kaj…” = „Keep calm and…”?

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-06-07, 19:29

Mi resignegas.
Well, that was a thing.
speak: [flag=]en[/flag][flag=]eo[/flag]
learning: [flag=]fr[/flag][flag=]de[/flag][flag=]ru[/flag][flag=]pt[/flag][flag=]es[/flag][flag=]ro[/flag][flag=]art-jbo[/flag]
hiatus: [flag=]fi[/flag][flag=]it[/flag][flag=]la[/flag][flag=]wa[/flag][flag=]sv[/flag][flag=]eu[/flag][flag=]zh.Hans[/flag][flag=]is[/flag]
want to learn: [flag=]fo[/flag][flag=]be[/flag][flag=]ko[/flag][flag=]he[/flag][flag=]sw[/flag][flag=]hi[/flag][flag=]tr[/flag][flag=]nl[/flag][flag=]cy[/flag][flag=]hu[/flag]

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Re: „Teni trankviligi kaj…” = „Keep calm and…”?

Postby Mutusen » 2014-06-07, 20:46

PtrTlr wrote:I have found this text: Teni trankviligi kaj paroli Esperanto (e.g. here), which I think is supposed to be an Esperanto version of the well known series of slogans Keep calm and…. The only word here that I am not worried about is kaj. The rest troubles me.

I think all your questions can be answered by "Because it has been translated word for word from English by someone who doesn't speak Esperanto." I would translate the sentence as Restu trankvilaj kaj parolu Esperanton.

I don't know if there is a grammar rule forbidding to use the infinitive after teni. I just can't imagine what it would mean. Just to be sure I searched Tekstaro for \bten\VF \b\w+i\b (i.e. ten+verb ending + a word ending in -i), I didn't find any occurence of teni + infinitive.

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:Therefore, the title should be more like:
Daŭru Trankvile kaj Parolu Espan.

What? If you say "Espan", nobody will understand what you are talking about.
„Koľko jazykov vieš, toľkokrát si človekom.“

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Re: „Teni trankviligi kaj…” = „Keep calm and…”?

Postby JuxtapositionQMan » 2014-06-07, 21:06

Mutusen wrote:I think all your questions can be answered by "Because it has been translated word for word from English by someone who doesn't speak Esperanto." I would translate the sentence as Restu trankvilaj kaj parolu Esperantan. ( :pissed: )
Pretty much.

Mutusen wrote:I don't know if there is a grammar rule forbidding to use the infinitive after teni. I just can't imagine what it would mean. Just to be sure I searched Tekstaro for \bten\VF \b\w+i\b (i.e. ten+verb ending + a word ending in -i), I didn't find any occurence of teni + infinitive.
This is what I meant. There's no rule forbidding "x + infinitive". "Teni salti" or something will probably make more sense in context.

Mutusen wrote:
JuxtapositionQMan wrote:Therefore, the title should be more like:
Daŭru Trankvile kaj Parolu Espan.

What? If you say "Espan", nobody will understand what you are talking about.
:hmm: ...except for every Esperanto speaker I have thus encountered.
Well, that was a thing.
speak: [flag=]en[/flag][flag=]eo[/flag]
learning: [flag=]fr[/flag][flag=]de[/flag][flag=]ru[/flag][flag=]pt[/flag][flag=]es[/flag][flag=]ro[/flag][flag=]art-jbo[/flag]
hiatus: [flag=]fi[/flag][flag=]it[/flag][flag=]la[/flag][flag=]wa[/flag][flag=]sv[/flag][flag=]eu[/flag][flag=]zh.Hans[/flag][flag=]is[/flag]
want to learn: [flag=]fo[/flag][flag=]be[/flag][flag=]ko[/flag][flag=]he[/flag][flag=]sw[/flag][flag=]hi[/flag][flag=]tr[/flag][flag=]nl[/flag][flag=]cy[/flag][flag=]hu[/flag]

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Re: „Teni trankviligi kaj…” = „Keep calm and…”?

Postby PtrTlr » 2014-06-07, 21:19

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:
Mutusen wrote:(…) Restu trankvilaj kaj parolu Esperantan. ( :pissed: )
Pretty much.
La Esperantan or Esperanton, the former being superfluous because Esperanto does its job.

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:
Mutusen wrote:If you say "Espan", nobody will understand what you are talking about.
:hmm: ...except for every Esperanto speaker I have thus encountered.
What about those Esperantists you have not encountered? Would it not be better (and/or polite) to spare them those neologisms and stick to more established vocabulary?

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Re: „Teni trankviligi kaj…” = „Keep calm and…”?

Postby Mutusen » 2014-06-07, 21:28

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:
Mutusen wrote:I think all your questions can be answered by "Because it has been translated word for word from English by someone who doesn't speak Esperanto." I would translate the sentence as Restu trankvilaj kaj parolu Esperantan. ( :pissed: )

The Esperanto word for "Esperanto" is… "Esperanto". With a O. It is not only correct, it is also how literally everyone speaks.

I really wonder where you have used Esperanto. I have met hundreds of Esperanto speakers and I have never heard "Espa", not a single time.
„Koľko jazykov vieš, toľkokrát si človekom.“

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Re: „Teni trankviligi kaj…” = „Keep calm and…”?

Postby orthohawk » 2015-05-26, 14:28

JuxtapositionQMan wrote:
Mutusen wrote:What? If you say "Espan", nobody will understand what you are talking about.
:hmm: ...except for every Esperanto speaker I have thus encountered.

And what about the Newbies?
*I use Quaker-style Plain Speech forms for speaking to one person. Esperante, mi uzas "ci/cia/cin" SEN iu ajn nuanco de intimeco aŭ ofendo.


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