Esperanto or Ido?

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Esperanto or Ido?

Postby Remis » 2011-10-29, 9:32

Saluton. :D I've recently become quite interested in constructed languages, and especially Esperanto because of the large community. However, I read on a certain website coughzompistcough that Esperanto has a lot of flaws which were (presumably) fixed up in Ido.
So what I'm really asking is:
α. Is Esperanto hard to learn?
β. Are Ido and Esperanto mutually intelligible?
γ. Are these flaws easily noticed, or are they just trivial things?
δ. Does anyone have a clue about how big the Ido community is, if it's separate from the Esperanto one?

Pacon!
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Re: Esperanto or Ido?

Postby ''' » 2011-10-29, 11:23

Eo is easy as shit. There are clearly some unnecesary complications (see below) but it's very easy. LEarn the grammar (it fills about an A5 page) then all the roots and affixes. That's basically it. Even withotu being able to put together a decent sentence (lack of vocab) I could get the jist out of articles in Eo.

Afaik, they are mutually intelligible but I've never tried to read ido, and their community is smaller and separate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ido#Ido-speaking_community

The flaws are more along the lines of:
unnecessary adjective agreement
unnecessary accusative
rather heavy agglutination
lack of distinct feminine words e.g. father 'patro' is obvious, while mother is patrino, making use of the -in- infix. Parent is gepatro. This is dificult to work with when you're used to having distinct words for gendered pairs. It'd be more logical to have a gender neutral word with masculine and female endings (he-parent; she-parent)
Ido words are often more intuitive
Eo uses (though not compulsorily) 6 special characters, Personally I use ch gh hh (kh) jh (zh) sh and w. Others prefer cx gx hx jx sx ux.

I agree that ido has rectified some things which are really bad calls on zamenhoff's part, but I still prefer to stick with Eo, Don;t want to start reforming shit and pull a volapük
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Re: Esperanto or Ido?

Postby Mutusen » 2011-10-29, 11:47

α. It probably depends on people, but in my case Esperanto was way easier than any other language; I never thought "that's too hard, I'll never manage to speak it" (unlike with other languages I tried to learn) and I could have decent conversations in Esperanto after learning it without meeting a single esperantist.
β. I've never heard Ido, but I tried to read the Ido Wikipedia and understood almost everything. But Ido vocabulary is more Latin, so it's probably harder to understand for an esperantist who doesn't know a Romance language.
γ. If I could I'd change a few things in Esperanto, but there's no horrible flaw that bothers me.
δ. Esperanto and Ido communities are definitely separate. I don't know a lot about Ido, but apparently they have a convention every year and they don't look numerous.
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Re: Esperanto or Ido?

Postby ''' » 2011-10-29, 16:19

"your mother speaks ido" (insult) and "It's all ido to me" are Eo expressions
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Re: Esperanto or Ido?

Postby Remis » 2011-10-29, 22:15

Cool, thanks a lot for the info, guys! I guess I'll have a go at Esperanto then! :D

''' wrote:"your mother speaks ido" (insult) and "It's all ido to me" are Eo expressions

Hahaha. Cool.
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Re: Esperanto or Ido?

Postby Mutusen » 2011-10-29, 22:16

''' wrote:"your mother speaks ido" (insult) and "It's all ido to me" are Eo expressions

I know about "it's all Volapük to me", but I've never heard of these expressions.
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Re: Esperanto or Ido?

Postby ''' » 2011-10-30, 2:19

might have confused ido and volapük then. Damn
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Re: Esperanto or Ido?

Postby linguaholic » 2011-10-31, 11:47

In terms of the actual speaker community, Esperanto is definitely the better choice, as the others have said. Also, I don't think there's a single Ido speaker who doesn't speak Esperanto, at least to some degree.
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Re: Esperanto or Ido?

Postby neil_nachum » 2011-11-22, 16:20

I speak Esperanto for 40 years and occasionally will read something in Ido, with only the briefest of instruction on Ido. I don't think Esperanto dominates artificial languages because it is or isn't easier than Ido but because, Zamenhof the founder, or a thousand leaders of Esperanto, as I also risk naming myself, have called for peaceful coexistence of nations. This message continues to attract speakers.

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Re: Esperanto or Ido?

Postby Coldmilk » 2011-11-25, 16:21

Esperanto has very few flaws and it's the only language in which you can keep your own accent and still be undertood. I'd also prefer madro instead of patrino, but the -ino suffix saves you a lot of trouble with the vast vocab of gender pairs. And you can see it in Spanish too (hermano-hermana, tio-tia etc.) -a is already taken by adjectives, so they had to come up with something else. I would go for Esperanto for 100%, because I think Ido has only about 600 speakers or so.

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Re: Esperanto or Ido?

Postby ''' » 2011-11-25, 16:57

Eo has many flaws. Not everyone can speak it. when I IAL, I use m n p t k and even those aren't entirely universal. Languages without an s/sh distinction or without [x] or who have trouble with other sounds, like arabic, where ج غ ق represent between them everything arab has to offer for Eo g ĉ ĝ ĵ. Different dialects can make different soudns with those (hijazi can make [g], levantine can make [ʒ], but there are limitations, even in languages with relaticely bread phonologies.

Not to mention the grammar which is probably illogical to many.
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Re: Esperanto or Ido?

Postby zeme » 2011-11-25, 17:13

An old man and a little boy on a donkey were on their way to town. They passed by a group of people who said, "What a shame for that old man to be walking while that perfectly able-bodied boy rides that donkey."

So the boy got off the donkey and the old man got on. They later passed by some more people who said, "Why should that little boy have to walk when they have a donkey to ride on.

So the little boy got on the donkey and they both rode it. After a while, they passed some more people. They overheard the people say, "That poor donkey must be wore out from carrying both of them."

So the little boy and old man picked up the donkey and started to carry it. They were carrying the donkey across a bridge. The weight of the donkey became just too unbearable and slipped from their grasp and went over the side of the bridge into the water and drowned.

The moral of the story?

If you try to please everyone,
You might as well
Kiss your ass goodbye!
The fellow who thinks he knows it all is especially annoying to those of us who do.

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Re: Esperanto or Ido?

Postby Coldmilk » 2011-11-25, 17:24

zeme wrote:An old man and a little boy on a donkey were on their way to town. They passed by a group of people who said, "What a shame for that old man to be walking while that perfectly able-bodied boy rides that donkey."

So the boy got off the donkey and the old man got on. They later passed by some more people who said, "Why should that little boy have to walk when they have a donkey to ride on.

So the little boy got on the donkey and they both rode it. After a while, they passed some more people. They overheard the people say, "That poor donkey must be wore out from carrying both of them."

So the little boy and old man picked up the donkey and started to carry it. They were carrying the donkey across a bridge. The weight of the donkey became just too unbearable and slipped from their grasp and went over the side of the bridge into the water and drowned.

The moral of the story?

If you try to please everyone,
You might as well
Kiss your ass goodbye!
That's an interesting point. F.e. Spanish is said to be one of the easiest languages in the world, but the ll sound which is the same or at least very similar to the Hungarian gy is not easy to pronounce for everyone. They usually end up pronouncing it like the english y (just for the record, that's the correct pronunciation in Cuba). You can't please everyone. But EO is really the easiest language. Chinese might have easy grammar, but if you add up all the tones, weird consonant sounds and hanzi. It'll knock you down. On the other hand Finnish is written in Latin alphabet and is not difficult in terms of pronunciation, but the grammar is a killer!!!

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Re: Esperanto or Ido?

Postby zeme » 2011-11-25, 18:44

Be careful, though; just about any claim with a superlative is bound to be false.

Perhaps it is true that for most people, Esperanto is easier to learn than the majority of other languages, but it is certainly not the easiest!
A language's difficulty is relative to its speaker's prior linguistic knowledge, meaning that learning a language closely-related to one's own will likely turn out to be easier than Esperanto. And besides, there are many objectively simpler and easier languages than Esperanto (i.e. Toki Pona, to name an extremist example). Of course, we can argue that an excess of simplicity is in fact complexity from another standpoint, but in any case I can assure you that Esperanto is not the easiest language.
The fellow who thinks he knows it all is especially annoying to those of us who do.

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Re: Esperanto or Ido?

Postby ''' » 2011-11-26, 1:24

hungarian gy and spanish ll are in NO WAY similar. If you're going off the wiki pages, bear in mind that the standard wiki usage of IPA is horrible. As far as they're concerned, our gy sound is also the same as a soft turkish g.

gy is a corono-palatal plosive written with a doral symbol, ll is an appoximate written with a fricative symbol.

and Eo verbs distinguish -as -is -os (some langs dont have a distinct future) -i (some dont have inifinitives) -us (uses of conditional/subjunctive very WIDELY between speakers) and -u (the jussive is a killer for many IE speakers).
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Re: Esperanto or Ido?

Postby Taunt » 2011-11-26, 9:28

''' wrote:hungarian gy and spanish ll are in NO WAY similar. If you're going off the wiki pages, bear in mind that the standard wiki usage of IPA is horrible. As far as they're concerned, our gy sound is also the same as a soft turkish g.

gy is a corono-palatal plosive written with a doral symbol, ll is an appoximate written with a fricative symbol.

and Eo verbs distinguish -as -is -os (some langs dont have a distinct future) -i (some dont have inifinitives) -us (uses of conditional/subjunctive very WIDELY between speakers) and -u (the jussive is a killer for many IE speakers).


Hello. Yes, you're right. Some languages don't have conjugation or tenses, but does they still indicate the tense with an auxiliary particle. F.e. In Vietnamese se, da, dang (without diacritics). Vietnamese also uses latin alphabet so you'd say it's a better choice, but with all the homophones and tones (some of them are almost alike to somebody who doesn't have a musical ear). SO yes if you want to take shots at Esperanto, there are always going to be flaws to point out. I don't get the accusative either. Since I use 7 cases I can understand how it works, but still it could cause problems to many people, that are used to using prepositions or nothing at all. Just bear in mind, that Zamenhof was a skilled linguist, but his knowledge was limited, so Esperanto is mainly made of Italian, French, Latin, German, English and Polish. No Asian or African languages. I also don't like when Esperantists say it draws from all of the languages. Like that DU (2) comes from Lithuanian and TRI (3) from Slovak, just because they are equivalent. Both du and tri have Indo-European roots, but the claim above is just for show. Nevermind. Mi estos la tria persono tiu parolos Idon en Unilang. Me esos la triesma persono qua parolos Ido en Unilang. Me ne prizas Esperanto. :x No offense, but it's corny.
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Re: Esperanto or Ido?

Postby ''' » 2011-11-26, 19:00

differentiation of 3 tenses is one thing, but for instance, Hungarian hasn't got perfect aspect and doesn't use passive. And while I love the ability to use these in Eo, I think it's a bit over the top for an IAL.
Granted, for its time, given the background, Eo is an amazing innovation. Although I barely speak Eo, I see myself as an esperantist. I support the sentiment, the movement, and the language and I respect Zamenhoff for what he acomplished and Eo for how far it's come.
Nonetheless, I think that in today's world we could (and should) devote ourselves to making another, better IAL.
in 1887 it was much harder to travel the world and gather resources on various languages, but as the 125th anniversary of Eo looms, I think we can agree that comparative and abstract linguistics are at the point where we could engineer a language which suits the needs of an IAL far better.
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Re: Esperanto or Ido?

Postby Taunt » 2011-11-26, 19:15

''' wrote:differentiation of 3 tenses is one thing, but for instance, Hungarian hasn't got perfect aspect and doesn't use passive. And while I love the ability to use these in Eo, I think it's a bit over the top for an IAL.
Granted, for its time, given the background, Eo is an amazing innovation. Although I barely speak Eo, I see myself as an esperantist. I support the sentiment, the movement, and the language and I respect Zamenhoff for what he acomplished and Eo for how far it's come.
Nonetheless, I think that in today's world we could (and should) devote ourselves to making another, better IAL.
in 1887 it was much harder to travel the world and gather resources on various languages, but as the 125th anniversary of Eo looms, I think we can agree that comparative and abstract linguistics are at the point where we could engineer a language which suits the needs of an IAL far better.


That's a great idea, but I don't think it will ever happen. To draw from all the global languages is a bad idea. That's like Esperanto with more Arabic and Chinese words. You can either make a regular language or gender equal, you can either make simple tenses or no and then have to be dependent on your intuition or context. I was interested in Lojban the logical language, but its stupid rules like no capitals and absolute logic makes it more like a math task. And c being pronounced as sh? I've seen sh, s, sz, š, ś and ch, but c. OMG :nope:
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Re: Esperanto or Ido?

Postby ''' » 2011-11-26, 19:19

volapuk used <j> for [S]

as for vocab, I think thebest idea is to invent a host of new words, possibly with a random word generator. No need to embed cognates in the language, you'll never please anyone that way, just focus on making them pronouncable and possibly even logical, like words in solresol
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Re: Esperanto or Ido?

Postby Taunt » 2011-11-26, 19:25

''' wrote:volapuk used <j> for [S]

as for vocab, I think thebest idea is to invent a host of new words, possibly with a random word generator. No need to embed cognates in the language, you'll never please anyone that way, just focus on making them pronouncable and possibly even logical, like words in solresol


You've got some point there. I had one of these generators. I just wrote consonants and vowels and then set the order. Computer did the rest. And I would suggest not to use consonant clusters like in the eo words deKSTRa. Not everybody can prounounce it. Spanish speakers f.e. have problems just with ZD.
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