Direct Object "n"

Maikeru
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Direct Object "n"

Postby Maikeru » 2010-04-17, 3:16

I read in Arika Okrent's book, In the Land of Invented Languages, that Esperanto users are dropping the use of the direct object marker "n" ... but I see that it is taught in the beginner course. Of course, I've noticed people say "Dankon" and that confirms that it survives at least in that sense, as it became habit, but I'm unfamiliar with enough Esperanto forums and such to have read and noticed whether or not people use the "n." Can someone clarify for me?

Dankon,
Majkel

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Re: Direct Object "n"

Postby Formiko » 2010-04-17, 3:40

Maikeru wrote:I read in Arika Okrent's book, In the Land of Invented Languages, that Esperanto users are dropping the use of the direct object marker "n" ... but I see that it is taught in the beginner course. Of course, I've noticed people say "Dankon" and that confirms that it survives at least in that sense, as it became habit, but I'm unfamiliar with enough Esperanto forums and such to have read and noticed whether or not people use the "n." Can someone clarify for me?

Dankon,
Majkel


Mi ankaŭ legis la libron, sed mi ne memoras, se ŝi diris, ke personoj lasas la finan non. Oni rigardas ĝin, kiel malbona stilo por forgesi la akuzativan non. Mi ĉeestas ĉe la Novjorka Esperantan klubo, kaj kvankam oni pardonas la erarojn de komencantoj, ĝi estas malrespektema, ke oni konstante forgesas la non.

I read the book as well, but I don't remember her saying people are dropping it. It's considered bad form to drop the accusative n. I attend the NYC Esperanto group, and while they forgive beginners, it is a sign of disrespect to constantly forget the "n".
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Re: Direct Object "n"

Postby Maikeru » 2010-04-17, 4:26

Ah, understood.

Dankon pro via respondo!

Majkel

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Re: Direct Object "n"

Postby Hallas » 2010-04-22, 2:45

Ugh, I always mess up at least one ending. I'm still new to Esperanto though.
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Re: Direct Object "n"

Postby Formiko » 2010-04-22, 3:11

Hallas wrote:Ugh, I always mess up at least one ending. I'm still new to Esperanto though.

Kompreneble. Ne zorgu. Ĝi venos :)

Of course. Don't worry about it. It will come. :)
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Re: Direct Object "n"

Postby gyrus » 2010-04-29, 17:17

I talk to someone who's somewhat vagabondish with his usage of Esperanto, leading a one-man battle for more liberated grammar and usage. The thing is, I honestly can't understand what he's saying in some situations, because he drops the accusative which I'm so used to.
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Re: Direct Object "n"

Postby Formiko » 2010-04-29, 20:57

gyrus wrote:I talk to someone who's somewhat vagabondish with his usage of Esperanto, leading a one-man battle for more liberated grammar and usage. The thing is, I honestly can't understand what he's saying in some situations, because he drops the accusative which I'm so used to.


Tiu estas tre malzorga. Oni pardonas la mankon de vortstoko, sed malzorgade estas tre malbona.

That's very sloppy. People forgive lack of vocabulary, but being sloppy with the accusative is bad.
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Re: Direct Object "n"

Postby hoketo » 2010-05-03, 14:31

I read in Arika Okrent's book, In the Land of Invented Languages, that Esperanto users are dropping the use of the direct object marker "n"

The information is not correct.
It's wrong to drop the "n".

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Re: Direct Object "n"

Postby mafke » 2010-07-26, 22:53

It's considered bad manners to omit the -n, but IME it does happen on a pretty frequent basis in spontaneous spoken conversation. Often people don't notice until it's pointed out (but pointing it out too often is bad taste too).

There's also overuse where people use it when they're not supposed to and say things like "Mi estas esperantiston". That's less common but it happens.

Despite the official grammar, spontaneous spoken Esperanto is very much SVO (and adjective before noun) and random accusativen dropping or adding doesn't really affect comprehension.

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Re: Direct Object "n"

Postby Psittakos » 2010-09-26, 11:56

If Esperanto is used as a regular language, it begin to suffer the same changes wich suffer all the languages, and the most inevitable features are the dropping of some prescindible grammar.

About the cases, they can dissapear completly or just partialy, just like the genitive in english or the total dropping of cases of nouns in neo-latin languages while still remains in the pronouns.

I think the regular use of -n in Esperanto is totally droppable in nouns thanks to respect the S-V-O structure, but maybe requirible in pronouns (* Mi amas mia lando kaj ankaw amas vin) or in close expresions like "dankon".

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Re: Direct Object "n"

Postby linguaholic » 2010-09-27, 6:55

Well, I haven't noticed any loss of the accusative suffix in the natural speech of more advanced speakers and if beginners keep leaving it out that is certainly frowned upon, so I don't think there's any structural change going on there. Not saying there's no change in Esperanto (one of the most prominent is the increased use of verbal and adverbial constructions ("La lago bluas somere" instead of "La lago estas blua en/je la somero")).
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Re: Direct Object "n"

Postby Formiko » 2010-09-27, 23:08

linguaholic wrote: ("La lago bluas somere" instead of "La lago estas blua en/je la somero")).

I've noticed that too. Mia aŭto ruĝas. :)
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Re: Direct Object "n"

Postby Psittakos » 2010-09-29, 7:58

Or even "mi dikas" instead "mi estas dika".

Esperanto evolves, and some of its adjetives becomes stative verbs, like in japanese, chinese or korean. The point is those new feautres avoid the original manifesto... In fact, i believe there's two esperanto's, the first is the project of Zamenhof and the other one is the language wich end up being spoken by the current people, vocabulary is the key to find out it, Zamenhof advised to use "malsanulejo", but in the end they use "hospitalo", and things like that.

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Re: Direct Object "n"

Postby Formiko » 2010-09-29, 8:35

Psittakos wrote: Zamenhof advised to use "malsanulejo", but in the end they use "hospitalo", and things like that.


Mi neniam vidis "hospitalon" en ĝusta literaturo. Mi kredas, ke ĝi estas pigra E-o. Ĉu oni ne povas uzi la Esperantajn radikojn? Vere, tiu vorto eble estas universala, sed kiu diligenta studento de Esperanto ne scias la vorton "malsanulejo"? Hospitalo estas fivorto!
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Re: Direct Object "n"

Postby history.bailey » 2010-11-18, 0:29

Mi ne uzas la akusativo kaj ĉi tie estas kial. Mi estas instruisto de historio kaj instruado speciala. Tie estas 180 horoj vastu ĉiu subjekto. Ekde Esperanto ne instruistas en klaso epoka, ĝi havas instrui en gildo. Se la gildo renkontas due semajno, ĉi donanta sole 72 horoj dum la jaro.

Esperanto estas bonega lingvo. Mi estas ankaŭ nova al ĝi. Se mi havas ĝeno kun la akusativo, kaj mi ne estas bona kun lingvo, tiam multa de mia lernatoj havas ĝeno ankaŭ.

Esperanto havas avantaĝo kiam compari alia lingvoj. Ĝi estas preskaŭ facila sufiĉe vastu ĉiu lerni. Malgraŭe, avisu tio iĝi dua lingvo universala, pli amanto lingva estos necesinta lerni la lingvo. Knaboj de ĉio aĝoj kaj tasoj de pova necesi lernanta dua lingvo.

I stopped using the accusative and here is why. I am a history and special education teacher. There are 180 hours for each subject (in the school year). Since Esperanto is not taught in a class, it has to be taught in a club. If the club meets twice per week, that gives 72 hours during the year.

Esperanto is a very good language. I am new to it. If I have trouble with the accusative, and I am not very good with the language, then many of my students will also have trouble.

Esperanto has advantages when compared with other languages. It is easy to learn. However, if it is to be a universal language, more than language lovers need to learn it. Children of all ages and ability levels need to learn a second language.

[I think the adjective-noun agreement and the accusative are good to teach. There are advantages to teaching them. However, they should be taught near the end of the course. Children should not feel too pressured to conform to them. The question for lovers of Esperanto is whether or not they really want their language to be universal. If they do, they cannot be a stuck up group of middle class & up people who look down upon those who have trouble with the accusative. If Esperanto becomes universal, the language will adjust to the masses].

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Re: Direct Object "n"

Postby linguaholic » 2010-11-21, 15:20

Ne funkcias tiel. Kvankam ĝi iam estis artefarata, Esperanto nun estas lingvo kiel aliaj lingvoj. Celo de lingvo estas komunikado kaj komuniki oni nur povas se oni sekvas kelkajn regulojn.
Kiam mi lernis la anglan, ege malfacilis por mi elparoli la sonojn θ kaj ð (do "th"). Ĉu pro tio mi decidis ne lerni ĝin? Tiujn sonojn konas nur malmultaj lingvoj, do ege malutiligas ili la anglan kiel internacia lingvo. Oni tamen ne forĵetas ilin, ĉar la angla estas lingvo kun reguloj kaj ĉar oni bezonas ilin por komunikado kun homoj kiuj jam regas la lingvon. Same en Esperanton. Uzado de la akuzativo ne estas persona elekto, sed regulo de la lingvo. Se vi decidas ke senakuzativa lingvo estas pli taŭga por internacia komunikado, uzu tiun lingvon, sed ne nomu ĝin "Esperanto". Ne temas pri klasa afero. Ekzistas multaj lingvoj kun multaj kazoj kaj ĉiuj parolantoj povas lerni ilin. Diri ke "mezklasaj kaj needukitaj homoj" ne povas lerni la n-regulon estas hontinde aroganta.

(Se mi parolas pri "akuzativo" en la supra skribaĵo mi celas la n-markon, ne akuzativo kiel lingvistika termino, ĉar kompreneble akuzativo ja ekzistas eĉ se oni ne markas ĝin.)

Kutime, mi ne estas fervora preskribisto, sed min lacigas lernantoj kiuj pensas ke ili adaptu la lingvon laŭ ilia plaĉo.
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Re: Direct Object "n"

Postby sharon93 » 2011-10-28, 7:50

The n-ending is a powerful literary resource in Esperanto.
You can use it to put thecialis direct object first in a sentence to give it greater emphasis.
For instance: shi = she, trompis = fool, deceive, la = the, fama =
famous, detektivo = detective, --n = accusative marker
Last edited by sharon93 on 2012-02-10, 10:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Direct Object "n"

Postby Vortarulo » 2011-11-09, 1:28

history.bailey wrote:Mi ne uzas la akusativo kaj ĉi tie estas kial. Mi estas instruisto de historio kaj instruado speciala. Tie estas 180 horoj vastu ĉiu subjekto. Ekde Esperanto ne instruistas en klaso epoka, ĝi havas instrui en gildo. Se la gildo renkontas due semajno, ĉi donanta sole 72 horoj dum la jaro.


I'm sorry to say so, but your Esperanto is completely illegible. If you hadn't posted in English as well, I wouldn't have understood a thing. Honestly. And that's not only because of your not using the accusative, but also because you use words wrongly and messed up the grammar quite much.

My advice is to learn a bit more of the languages, especially its grammar and also sticking to the accusative. If you're not using the accusative, you're not making a point, you'll just sound wrong. Because you're a beginner, everyone will forgive your forgetting of the accusative, but once you really start to be able to actually converse in the language, this will get very tedious for the listener. Imagine someone leaving out the tenses of English just because he thinks it's not necessary...
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Re: Direct Object "n"

Postby RayO_ElGatubelo » 2011-12-01, 22:52

sharon93 wrote:The n-ending is a powerful literary resource in Esperanto.
You can use it to put the direct object first in a sentence to give it greater emphasis.
For instance: shi = she, trompis = fool, deceive, la = the, fama =
famous, detektivo = detective, --n = accusative marker


Šaron, mi komplete samopinas! Esperanta vortordo kiel rusa kaj germana ege flexeblas pro la no akuzativa.

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Re: Direct Object "n"

Postby Ektoras » 2013-05-05, 11:50

I'm sorry, but who says that Esperanto is SVO? There is no such rule, and apart from myself, I know a lot of people who make S-O-V sentences, and I'm sure some people use V-S-O. Please don't Europeanize the language. Let people speak it the way they feel the most comfortable - in terms of syntax, of course; not grammarwise. Omitting the accusative -n is absolutely wrong.
If a person always uses S-V-O, then omitting the accusative might not hinder the understanding, but other syntaxes would be hard to understand without it.


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