linguaholic - Esperanto

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Re: Mi estas nova

Postby voron » 2008-10-04, 15:26

Where Esperanto is weird here is that the adjective must then become an adverb (Lavi estas bone), following, I believe, the usage in Polish, but ignoring the usage of most languages in the world

No, in Polish it's also an adjective. It most likely follows Russian, which has coinciding forms of neuter short adjectives (generally used as predicates) and adverbs, and Russian grammarians decided that in sentences of that type predicates should be classified as adverbs, for some reason.

Also, it is a very weird feeling to call such a positive thing as "open" - malfermi - by two "negative words". But maybe that's just my German way of thinking...

Why, German also has "aufschließen". :) And Russian basic word for "open" follows this pattern too: открывать = out + to hide (similar to Italian scoprire and English discover).

Not sure of the etymology of "jen"

You may find useful this Etymological dictionary of Esperanto
jen = Lat. en

I'd like to mention one more resource for learning Esperanto (I know they are a plenty, but this one I particularly like): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWbyXVSiCxw

It's the hilarous cartoon Muzzy in Gondoland originally made for learners of English. I particulary like the pronunciation in it, it sounds very natural and nicely Romance-like.
Last edited by voron on 2008-10-05, 17:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mi estas nova

Postby Mutusen » 2008-10-05, 17:20

linguaholic wrote:Does anybody know where the word "jen" comes from? Because in the languages I know a translation would be an imperative of "look". Or is jen just a seperate root? I can't find a connection to other words.

Yes, jen is a separate root. If it can help, I translate it as voilà in French.

I’m glad you begin to like Esperanto. :)

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Re: Mi estas nova

Postby Steli » 2008-10-05, 22:33

linguaholic wrote:Dankon!
I keep forgetting about the n's, even if it's supposed to be so easy for Germans. I guess I'm just not used to adding anything to pronouns? I'll get used to it.


I don't see why the Esperanto accusative is supposed to be easy for Germans. It's true that there is a accusative case in German, but we don't distinguish it in all cases (I don't mean grammatical cases obviously ;)) from the nominative (like in most languages I know). Especially kio and kion gives me a hard time every time.
I also tend to use an -n with most prepositions because I mix it up with the dative for some reasons. :wink:

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Re: Mi estas nova

Postby voron » 2008-10-05, 22:40

I just started to learn Esperanto (I'm not sure I'll go on, though) and the accusative gives me hard times too. Apparently at this begginer's level I translate from Russian (my mother tongue) to say anything in Esperanto, and since we have accusative=nominative for neuter and masculine inanimate nouns, I tend to forget adding -n too in these cases (I could also translate from English but it's even less helpful).
Btw the choice of reflexiveness for verbs does not seem to be random but so far seems to follow the russian (or generally slavic) pattern.

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Re: Mi estas nova

Postby linguaholic » 2008-10-06, 14:42

I don't see why the Esperanto accusative is supposed to be easy for Germans. It's true that there is a accusative case in German, but we don't distinguish it in all cases (I don't mean grammatical cases obviously ;)) from the nominative (like in most languages I know). Especially kio and kion gives me a hard time every time.
I also tend to use an -n with most prepositions because I mix it up with the dative for some reasons. :wink:


I think what people generally mean is that it is easier for native German speakers than for speakers of other Western European languages that don't have cases, simply because they are familiar with the concept and are taught to classify cases in primary school. (I vaguely remember stories about Princess Nomina and Prince Dativo in grade 3, haha.) But I also often find myself adding -n even if there is a preposition. Wenn schon, denn schon! :wink:
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Re: Mi estas nova

Postby linguaholic » 2008-10-10, 16:00

Jen multegaj demandoj :) :

Are these synonyms:
magazeno/butiko

simpla/facila
?

Does "gusto" mean "taste" both in the sense of really tasting something and also the taste in music/fashion etc.?

How do you express fractions? Three quarts, two thirds etc.?

Are the consonants in the word "punkto" supposed to be fully pronounced, all of them? pu-n-k-t-o? nkt is not a consonant cluster you'd expect in an "easy" language. :P

Is konduti reflexive?

I don't quite get why it is
Estas bone.
but
Tio estas bona
In what way does the first construction differ from the second? Isn't it the same only with a "silent" subject?

How would you express "I'm over it."? I don't think you can literally translate it using "trans" or "sur"? ^^

Does somebody know where the word "mendi" comes from? It doesn't look familiar to me, at least not with the meaning "to order".

Two things I've noticed.

-ant- doing something right now
-ist- doing something professionally/always
--> wouldn't that cause a contradiction in "Esperantisto", strictly speaking? One who is professionally hoping right now? (I realize that in "Esperanto" the ant may have lost its original meaning.)

"rendevuo" - why is there a new root that consists of two latin roots that are already taken as roots? Why not renkontovi?

Dankon por via helpo! :)
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Re: Mi estas nova

Postby Steli » 2008-10-10, 21:55

I think I can help with some questions.

Are these synonyms:
magazeno/butiko


I think you could say "vendejo" too. That's litterally "selling place".

How do you express fractions? Three quarts, two thirds etc.?


Fractions are expressed by the suffix -on-. Three quarts = tri kvaronoj.

Are the consonants in the word "punkto" supposed to be fully pronounced, all of them? pu-n-k-t-o? nkt is not a consonant cluster you'd expect in an "easy" language. :P


I'm not sure which consonant you want to leave out, but generally speaking all letters are pronounced in Esperanto. (Even the n shouldn't really be pronounced like "doiNG"). Where did you get the impression Esperanto is a language that's easy to pronounce (for everyone)? :P

I don't quite get why it is
Estas bone.
but
Tio estas bona
In what way does the first construction differ from the second? Isn't it the same only with a "silent" subject?


I don't know that either and would like to hear an explanation, too. :wink:

-ant- doing something right now
-ist- doing something professionally/always
--> wouldn't that cause a contradiction in "Esperantisto", strictly speaking? One who is professionally hoping right now? (I realize that in "Esperanto" the ant may have lost its original meaning.)


You have live with some standing expression. It's like "arbaro" not meaning just any collection of trees but a wood. I don't exactly see why "someone who is professionally hoping at the moment" is contradictory in itself.

"rendevuo" - why is there a new root that consists of two latin roots that are already taken as roots? Why not renkontovi?


I guess you could say "renkontiĝo" either (although I'm not sure if it has a slightly different meaning). I think "rendevuo" is an internationalism that has been included into lexicon because it's more recognisable in this form than in the one made up from simple roots. Esperanto seems to be full of words that could be expressed by a combination of roots. Think about hospitalo/malsanulejo for example (although there seems to be a minor difference, too, according to my dictionary).

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Re: Mi estas nova

Postby linguaholic » 2008-10-10, 22:17

Thanks for your reply. :)

I'm not sure which consonant you want to leave out, but generally speaking all letters are pronounced in Esperanto. (Even the n shouldn't really be pronounced like "doiNG"). Where did you get the impression Esperanto is a language that's easy to pronounce (for everyone)? :P


I didn't really mean "leaving out", it's just that "naturally" I would pronounce it pungto, ng being that ng-sound, don't have IPA now, but I guess you meant the same thing in "doiNG".

Where did you get the impression Esperanto is a language that's easy to pronounce (for everyone)? :P


I just assumed that "easy to learn" would include pronunciation. ;) But maybe because he spoke Polish, Russian, German etc., the many consonant clusters didn't strike Zamenhof as "difficult".

I don't exactly see why "someone who is professionally hoping at the moment" is contradictory in itself.


To me, it is contradictory because he is not professionaly hoping at the moment, but [professionally [hoping at the moment]] which means he is constantly doing something right now. Not any clearer, is it? :hmm:

Think about hospitalo/malsanulejo for example (although there seems to be a minor difference, too, according to my dictionary)


What would that difference be?
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Re: Mi estas nova

Postby Formiko » 2008-10-10, 22:49

Steli wrote:
I don't quite get why it is
Estas bone.
but
Tio estas bona
In what way does the first construction differ from the second? Isn't it the same only with a "silent" subject?


I don't know that either and would like to hear an explanation, too. :wink:

-ant- doing something right now
-ist- doing something professionally/always
--> wouldn't that cause a contradiction in "Esperantisto", strictly speaking? One who is professionally hoping right now? (I realize that in "Esperanto" the ant may have lost its original meaning.)


You have live with some standing expression. It's like "arbaro" not meaning just any collection of trees but a wood. I don't exactly see why "someone who is professionally hoping at the moment" is contradictory in itself.



If there is no nominative noun, ten -e is used. If you use -a, you will still be understood, but it's properly -e.
Esperanto with a capital e "E" is the language, and esperanto, is "hoper" or "one who hopes",
So, Esperantisto is perfectly valid.
You could also say esperanta isto for a professional hoper.
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Re: Mi estas nova

Postby Steli » 2008-10-11, 0:05

It always struck me odd that there's no free choice between using the a- and the e-form in these cases.

I would assume that in "Li estas bona" bona refers to what he is and that in "li estas bone" bone would refer to how he is. In other words, in the first case "bona" is an adjective and refers to the noun and in the second case the adverb "bone" would refer to the verb.
I know that it isn't handled that way and it has to be the adjective form in this case, but, as I said, it seems strange that the other phrase should be considered incorrect. Possibly because we handle it differently in my native language.

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Re: Mi estas nova

Postby Formiko » 2008-10-11, 2:24

Steli wrote:It always struck me odd that there's no free choice between using the a- and the e-form in these cases.

I would assume that in "Li estas bona" bona refers to what he is and that in "li estas bone" bone would refer to how he is. In other words, in the first case "bona" is an adjective and refers to the noun and in the second case the adverb "bone" would refer to the verb.
I know that it isn't handled that way and it has to be the adjective form in this case, but, as I said, it seems strange that the other phrase should be considered incorrect. Possibly because we handle it differently in my native language.


Words that end with e are called Adverbs, and they describe a verb or another adjective.
So, if I say "Mi estas bona"..the word MI is described, but if I say bone, there is no word that is being described...understand?
Here is the link for the very thorough PMEG concerning E-words: (Parenteze, mi havas ĉi tiun libron, kaj ĝi estas bonega kaj tre kompletega.)
http://www.bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/e-vortoj.html
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Re: Mi estas nova

Postby Nukalurk » 2008-10-11, 4:36

linguaholic wrote:I didn't really mean "leaving out", it's just that "naturally" I would pronounce it pungto, ng being that ng-sound, don't have IPA now, but I guess you meant the same thing in "doiNG".


In Esperanto, you don't use that one but do it the Slavic way and pronounce each separately. Of course it's more difficult for us who are used to that sound (I know which one you mean). :| Though I bet people would understand you, even if you used that one accidentally. :)

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Re: Mi estas nova

Postby Steli » 2008-10-11, 23:29

Formiko wrote:
Words that end with e are called Adverbs, and they describe a verb or another adjective.
So, if I say "Mi estas bona"..the word MI is described, but if I say bone, there is no word that is being described...understand?



Actually no. If I would say "mi estas bone" there is the verb "estas" to which "bone", as an adverb, could refer ("I am in a good way"). If you couldn't use "bone" on "estas", "Estas bone." wouldn't make any sence at all.

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Re: Mi estas nova

Postby ''' » 2008-10-12, 12:38

Aye, it's literally:

I am good
I am well
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Re: Mi estas nova

Postby linguaholic » 2008-11-06, 11:49

Eblas uzi "ŝajni" sen "esti"?
Ekzemplo: "Ŝajnas esti bona." = "Ŝajnas bona." aŭ "Ŝajnas bone?"
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Re: Mi estas nova

Postby Steli » 2008-11-07, 14:34

Mi dirus ke la versio sen "esti" ankaŭ korektas, sed mi ne estas certa. Vi povus diri "ŝajnas boni" ankaŭ miaopinie.

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Re: Mi estas nova

Postby linguaholic » 2008-11-08, 18:58

Dankon!

"Gxi aspektas tre bongusta." estas frazo en la lernu-kurso "Mi estas komencanto".
Kial ne "Gxi aspektas tre bonguste"? Tial gxi signifas la sama ke "Gxi aspektas esti tre bongusta"?

Mi pensas ke la afero kun adjektivoj kaj adverboj ne estas tre logika en Esperanto. (Aux mi nur ne renkontis iu kiu povis klarigi gxin logike.)

Kio estas la diferenco inter "por" kaj "pro"? (Ne diru ke la "r" kaj la "o" staras en aliaj pozicioj! :p)

Kaj kiel oni povas diri "not yet"? "Ne ankoraux"?
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Re: Mi estas nova

Postby Steli » 2008-11-08, 23:58

Ĉar "bongusta" ne rilatas al la verbo, sed al "ĝi" (kiu estas kvazaŭnomo) la adjektiva formo bezonitas. Se vi demandas "kia?" estas a-vorto, se vi demandas "kiel?", kie?", "kiam?" aŭ "per kio" estas e-vorto. Sed la diferenco ege problemas al mi ankaŭ. Estas tipa germana problemo mi pensas.

"Por" rilatas al la celo de iu ajn ago kaj "pro" al la kaŭzo.

Mi pensas "ne ankoraŭ" korektas. Mi volis diri "ne jam" ke tio ŝajnas signifi aliaĵon. Spertuloj bonvolu klarigi.

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Re: Mi estas nova

Postby Narbleh » 2008-11-09, 3:02

Zamenhof kaj la Reta Vortaro ne konstenas. Estas nur alia apartaĵa uzo en Esperanto.

Ŝajni, ekvidiĝi, vidigi ian aŭ alian eksteraĵon: li aspektas pale (Z), malĝoje, bonfarte; gaje aspektantaj domoj (Z); bone aspektas, kiam oni en societo montriĝas en uniformo [1]. SIN:aperi, montriĝi, mieni, elrigardi.
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Re: linguaholic - Esperanto

Postby linguaholic » 2010-11-14, 20:24

Ŝajnas al mi ke mi ne plu estas tiom "nova", do mi ŝanĝis la titolon de tiu ĉi fadeno.
Intertempe, mi partoprenis du internaciajn renkontiĝojn kaj du aŭ tri malgrandajn nederlandajn kunvenojn. Mi sufiĉe bone komprenas kaj skribas Esperanton, sed vere ne flue parolas ĝin. Do, mi WACigos Esperanton. :) Ĉar estos eblo ekzameniĝi en Esperanto laŭ la Eŭropa Referenckadro en Roterdamo en februaro, mi intencas freneze ekstudi nun por ke mi sukcese trapasu la C1-ekzamenon post tri monatoj.

Mi aŭdis ke indas aĉeti la libron "Esperanto de nivelo al nivelo" preparonte la ekzamenon, kaj mi planas fari tion. Ĉu aĉetindas ankaŭ la paperan version de PMEG? Mi ege ŝatus posedi ĝin, sed ĝi ne malmultekostas (tamen kostas malpli ol mem printi la senpagan pdf-n por mi)...
Ĉu iu havas literaturajn rekomendojn (aŭ originale verkitaj aŭ tradukitaj libroj)? Kaj ĉu iu emas skajpe voĉbabili de tempo al tempo?

Multaj demandoj... Kaj nun mi studu la hebrean antaŭ mia leciono morgaŭ (ja ne indas prokrasti lingvostudadon per studado de aliaj lingvoj...) :P
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