Worldwide language, worldwide brotherhood

Nero

Worldwide language, worldwide brotherhood

Postby Nero » 2007-07-17, 15:05

This question is something I've thought about for a little while, so I thought I should open it up to you guys, the Esperantists.

Many esperanto enthusiasts say that if the world had one language, we might achieve world peace. Others say that "Esperanto is the linguistic expression of the brotherhood of man" (Sir Anthony Brooke), and so on. Those types of sayings/feelings might make someone want to join the Esperanto idea and learn the language. However, I am a bit doubtful that a universal language will solve any problems.

Imagine, for a second, that everyone could speak Esperanto. The world is completely the same except for that one feature. Now contemplate this: Will the fact that everyone speaks the same language really change anything? Will it make terrorist groups less ruthless? Will it make the chinese less totalitarian? Will it make any difference whether Kim Jung Il communicates in English through a translator or says the same thing in Esperanto?

I believe not. The only thing that is different, is that no translator steps inbetween. Regardless of the language that a person speaks, he/she still has his own agenda - his own goals, and those are not tied to any language.

What do you all think?

Haec rogatio est res de qua ego miratus sum parumper, et volui rogare vos, homines Esperantos.

Multitudo fanaticorum linguae esperantonis dicunt nos pacem mundi patrare, si omnes unam linguam habuerit. Alteri dicunt Esperantonem declarationem fraternitatis linguā esse (Magister Antonius Brooke), et cetera. Illae sententiae destinunt desiderationem discendae linguae hominibus, autem, ego dubito ut 'munduslingua' operas diluat.

Imaginamini, hoc in vestigo, totum mundum Esperantonem loqui posse. Mundus similis mundo hodie est, ea cum exceptione. Nunc haec considerate: Omnibus Esperantonem loquentibus, mutabitne noster mundus multo? Imminuentne homines terroris? Eruntne Seres liberiores? refertne si Kim Iung Il loquat aut Anglice (per interpritationem) aut Esperantone?

Credo non. res sola quae differt, est inopia interpretis. Tamen desiderationes hominum similes erunt, quod desiderationes linguis non seruntur.

Quod cogitatis?

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Postby Steli » 2007-07-17, 15:55

That's a good point, indeed. But the world doesn't consist just of rulers. There would be billions of ordinary people who would be able to get to know other persons outside their countries. It's hard to keep up prejudices against a people if you know some of them personally (except of course the prejudice is 100% true :wink: ).

And by the way, that would be true if the whole world would be speaking English none the less.

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Postby RBWTexan » 2007-07-19, 15:31

I totally agree. I don't think that everyone having a common language would bring about world peace. The only thing that would do that would be everyone thinking the same way on every subject (like that will ever happen). It's like the old saying, "Ask any 3 people their opinion on any subject, and you will get 7 opinions".

Look at the U.S. Revolutionary War. It was fought between two groups of people who spoke the same language. It was fought over opinions, two different groups of people who had different opinions of who should rule the English colonies on the North American continent. Speaking the same language didn't stop that war.

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Re: Worldwide language, worldwide brotherhood

Postby Simono » 2007-08-29, 3:32

Nero wrote:Many esperanto enthusiasts say that if the world had one language, we might achieve world peace.


Funny, that. I've never yet met one esperanto enthusiast who says that.

Stranga, tio. Mi ankoraŭ neniam renkontis eĉ unu esperantiston, kiu diras tion.

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Postby AlexandreMsx » 2007-08-29, 14:40

uh... actually many esperantists believes that (about world peace due one language). Peace isn't archived due the same language, just due to same thoughts. We are humans, we won't think equal each other NEVER, so this is why I think world peace won't be archived, never mind, this is issue for another topic indeed.

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Postby hanumizzle » 2007-08-29, 15:00

AlexandreMsx wrote:uh... actually many esperantists believes that (about world peace due one language). Peace isn't archived due the same language, just due to same thoughts. We are humans, we won't think equal each other NEVER, so this is why I think world peace won't be archived, never mind, this is issue for another topic indeed.


I think you may mean 'achieve' instead of 'archive'.

In any case, you are correct.
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Postby Narbleh » 2007-08-29, 15:30

It's been my experience that actually lots of Esperantists think this. That's what Esperantismo is, and why people speak of "samideano" (one who holds the same beliefs) when talking about other Esperantists.

Personally, that's been one thing that's always put me off about Esperanto - the ideology attached. I'm personally just interested in the linguistic phenomenon itself.

I also think it's a bit naïve to think that language difference is the only source of conflict, or that it need even be a source of conflict at all. I do believe that being able to express/understand one another is an important first step toward mutual respect etc., but it takes more than a bridge language to do this.


Laŭ mia sperto, multe da Esperantistoj fakte kredas tion. Jen la Esperantismo mem, kaj kial oni parolas pri "samideano" (iu, kiu havas samajn kredojn) kiam oni parolas pri aliaj Esperantistoj.

Por mi, tio ĉi aspekto jam delonge ĝenas min pri Esperanto - la ideologio inkluzivita. Mi nur interesiĝas pri la lingva okazo.

Mi pensas ankaŭ ke estas iomete naive kredi, ke la sola "fonto" de konflikto estas malsamaj lingvoj, aŭ ke tio eĉ kreu konflikton ian ajn. Mi vere kredas, ke kapabli esprimi/interkompreni unu la alian estas grava, unua paŝo al la interrespekto ktp, sed bezonos pli da kondicioj ol "pontlingvo" por atingi tion.

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Postby AlexandreMsx » 2007-08-29, 18:14

hanumizzle wrote:
AlexandreMsx wrote:uh... actually many esperantists believes that (about world peace due one language). Peace isn't archived due the same language, just due to same thoughts. We are humans, we won't think equal each other NEVER, so this is why I think world peace won't be archived, never mind, this is issue for another topic indeed.


I think you may mean 'achieve' instead of 'archive'.

In any case, you are correct.


LOL That's right :o
Thank you
I agree with every word Narbleh wrote.

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Postby mafke » 2007-08-29, 21:00

I'm another Esperanto user who's never really heard other Esperanto speakers say anything of the kind.

Yes, there is a lot of lip service given to vague ideas of progressive internationalism (homaranismo). And the idea that you can't divide the world into 'good' and 'bad' ethnic, religious or linguistic groups is pretty prominent. But that's about it.

There is also an idea that Esperanto makes a diferent, generally better kind of communication possible in international cross-linguistic situations than you'll find with national languages like English or French (which I agree with, having had experience in both kinds of cross linguistic communication).

On the other hand, the often acrimonious debate among esperanto speakers and some contentious long-lasting feuds (check pretty much any esperanto language forum for examples) would mean that most speakers realize its peace-creating abilities are pretty limited.

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Esperanto

Postby pastorant » 2007-08-31, 9:34

Angla traduko sube

Dum mi intermite parolas antaŭ 15 jaroj, mi audas, ke homoj kredas mondpaco, sed ili volas tiun malgraue Esperanto. Ni kutime nomas ilin "Arbbrakumantoj" aŭ "Dedkapoj" :)

Mi simple kredas, ke Esperanto faciligas komunikon. Kvankam mi estas denaska anglaparolanto, mi kredas, ke Angla estas horora elekto por "efektiva" lingvo. Kiam multaj da lingvoj kunekzistas, piĝino aŭ kreolo estas formita por superponti breĉon. Mi konsideras E-on kiel mondkreolo aŭ mondpiĝino.

Kaj ekde mi kredas ke E-o estas "la plej malaltan vulgaran denominatoron, ni samideanoj ne devus uzi vortojn kiel "neŭrologo" sed "cerbkuiristo". Por la sama kialo, ni ne devus slangi Esperante (kvankam mi slangas!), ni devus konservi Esperanton, kiel la "dialekto" de la mundo.

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While I've been speaking Esperanto on and off for about 15 years, I have heard people believe in world peace, but they would want that whether or not they spoke Esperanto. We usually call them "tree-huggers" or "dead heads" :)

I just believe E-o facilitates communication.
While I am a native English speaker, I think English is a horrible choice for a [l]de facto[/l] language. Whenever many languages exist, a "pidgin" or "creole" is formed to bridge the gap. I consider Esperanto to be a Mundkreolo aŭ MundPiĝino.

And since I believe Esperanto should be the LCD (Lowest Common Denominator), we Esperantists shouldn't be using words like "Neŭrologo" but "cerbkuiristo".
For the same reason we shouldn't use slang in E-o (although I do!), we should keep Esperanto as the "patois" of the world.
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Postby Narbleh » 2007-08-31, 14:50

cerbkuiristo = a cooker of brains
cerbkuracisto = brain doctor ;)
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Postby Steli » 2007-08-31, 15:26

Wouldn't be "cerbsanigisto" even better?

I'm not sure why you call E-o a creole or pidgin. I think it is quite the opposite. Esperanto is clearly a artificial language and I can't imagine that something like E-o could have evolved naturally from a couple of root languages.

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Postby RBWTexan » 2007-08-31, 21:10

Steli wrote:Wouldn't be "cerbsanigisto" even better?

I'm not sure why you call E-o a creole or pidgin. I think it is quite the opposite. Esperanto is clearly a artificial language and I can't imagine that something like E-o could have evolved naturally from a couple of root languages.


You're right, a naturally evolved pidgin or creole language would never evolve into something as regular as Esperanto, to me saying Esperanto is artificial is also inaccurate. Doctor Zamenhof didn't make up anything that went into the language. Every grammatical rule or tool, he took directly from another European language (the base of the grammar is from Latin (with some Germanic and Slavic thrown in). The question word, ĉu, he took almost directly from Polish, the accusative case he took from German, etc.)

Webster's defines pidgin as "a simplified speech used for communication between people with different languages". Which is exactly what Esperanto is.

In my opinion, using the words pidgin or creole to describe Esperanto is entirely accurate, it fits the definition precisely.

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Postby pastorant » 2007-08-31, 22:29

What I meant by pidgin is its linguistic usage or its "role", not its evolutionary term.
Esperanto plays a "creole" role. It bridges 2 unlike language speakers, with a simplified medium.
Am I making myself clear?
Tok Pisin in Papua New Guinea is a simpler language with easier grammar that facilitates communication. Esperanto does that excellently.
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Postby Steli » 2007-08-31, 23:25

No, it doesn't. The grammar of Esperanto is pretty much made up. To say that the grammar is taken from Latin is slightly ridiculous. It is all in all that simple that you could take it almost from every language, but the way it is actually done is not at all similar to any other language known to me. Think about verbs for example. You have to look a long time for a language with six participles like in Esperanto for example.

Anyway, I think that the very nature of a pidgin is that it evolves gradually and that it invents itself while being used. That seems somehow contradicting to a constructed language.

edit: Didn't see your post Pastorant. I understand what you mean.

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Postby RBWTexan » 2007-09-03, 11:57

Steli wrote:No, it doesn't. The grammar of Esperanto is pretty much made up. To say that the grammar is taken from Latin is slightly ridiculous.


WOW!, what a sophomoric statement. Why don't you go study the "Konciza Etimologia Vortaro" and see just how much of the language was taken from Latin before you spout off?

Are you prejudice against Esperanto because it's not your language, or because it was created by a Jew?

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Postby loqu » 2007-09-03, 12:06

RBWTexan wrote:Are you prejudice against Esperanto because it's not your language, or because it was created by a Jew?


Personally, I think insinuating Steli doesn't like Jews is sort of inappropriate. That Zamenhof was a Jew doesn't mean everyone who criticizes Esperanto must be an antisemite. Sorry, but it's absolutely wrong to think that way. I could tell you that you think that about Steli just because he's German, but that would be the same mistake once again.

All in all I think Steli wasn't being negatively critical on Esperanto. So please calm down, man.
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Postby Steli » 2007-09-03, 19:33

I never argued that a good deal of the Esperanto vocabulary was taken from Latin. I said that the grammar has nothing in common with Latin. Therefore I doubt that said dictionary will help claryifing anything.

Anyway, what makes you think that I have a problem with E-o?

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Postby hanumizzle » 2007-09-03, 22:15

RBWTexan wrote:Are you prejudice against Esperanto because it's not your language, or because it was created by a Jew?


I didn't see Judaism mentioned anywhere...
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Postby RBWTexan » 2007-09-04, 11:06

Steli wrote:I never argued that a good deal of the Esperanto vocabulary was taken from Latin. I said that the grammar has nothing in common with Latin. Therefore I doubt that said dictionary will help claryifing anything.

Anyway, what makes you think that I have a problem with E-o?


Your words made me think that you were one of those anti-esperantists who are completely prejudice against the language without even trying it and totally dismiss the language and argue against all things related to it. I came to this conclusion because you continued to give your thoughts and feelings as evidence against people who were giving you quotes, historical facts and dictionary definitions. I came to this conculsion after you ignored the definition of the word "pidgin" and continued to argue that what you felt about the word and it's meaning is more correct than the dictionary definition. And if you haven't looked at the book I mentioned, but "doubt it will help", even though I, who own a copy of the book, tell you it clarifies a lot of the questions you seem confused about, this seems to indicate that I'm correct, that you are talking about the language, it's history and roots without actually learning the history and roots of the language and that you are unwilling to pursue it further.

Steli wrote:To say that the grammar is taken from Latin is slightly ridiculous.


Here's a quote where you said that my saying Esperanto grammar was taken from Latin was "ridiculous". The word "ridiculous" in English means "Only worthy of laughter", seeming to indicate that you can't possibly believe what I said was true, and your only response is to laugh at the absurdness of my words. Well they weren't my words. Dr. Zamenhof learned Latin at a very early age from his father who was classically trained as a linguist, and Dr. Zamenhof said much of the language was based on Latin. So the statement you found "ridiculous" is not my opinion, but a matter of historical fact.

And to those who said that my mention of the Jewish heritidge of the language was inappropriate and anti-German. I am of German heritage, and proud of my German heritage. That doesn't make me agree with everything about Germany's history or agree with every German person. I have another book for you. "La Dangxera Lingvo" which documents a part of history where Hitler (among other leaders) rounded up all Esperantists and put them in prison camps stating that "Esperanto is a language of Jewish, communist spies".

And I have one last quote on this subject, then I'll be quiet. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.", George Santayana.


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