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TOMINHO

Postby TOMINHO » 2003-06-25, 13:07

I have heard

NOI SI + 3rd person or CI SI + 3rd person can replace NOI + 1st person:


Noi si va = Ci si va = Noi andiamo.

This noi/ci si corresponds to french on or brazilian a gente...


Could you tell me more about this construction?

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Postby leppie » 2003-06-25, 20:42

Tominho, your italian is really tuscany biased ;-)

1) si as a substitute of noi:
Noi si [va]:
is regional, and should not be employed in standard
italian, even if everybody will understand you if you use it.

2) If the use is more impersonal then it can be used also for "we
people"
si va al mare o in montagna?

3) can be impersonal (on)
si mangia bene.

4) It also has a full passive value (si passivante)
si dice, si rompe, si vede.
but also
il pollo si mangia con le dita.

the "ci"
1) it can mean there (y).
Ci si va in macchina (on y va par voiture)


But I think you can be confused by the fact that "ci" is
a substitute of "si" when two "si" are one near another:

look at the verb lavare/lavarsi:
a) lavo col sapone (I wash with soap)
b) lava col sapone (He wash with soap)
c) mi lavo col sapone (I wash myself with soap)
d) si lava col sapone (he wash himself with soap)
e) questo maglione si lava col sapone
f) lo si lava col sapone

this three last sentences has different value of the "si", in d) "si"
is a reflexive pronouns, in e and f is an impersonal "si"

If you want to combine d) and f) (so "people wash themselves with
the soap) you have
*si si lava col sapone. (wrong)
that becomes
ci si lava col sapone.


--
A question: where does your name came from? Tomino (without h) is a
kind of cheese in italy...
Se il drago rifiuta di combattere,
forse è solo pigro.
Ma se ignora la zanzara,
allora è davvero addormentato.

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Postby dando » 2003-07-09, 16:45

:) Do you wanna learn Italian? Do you want to study back the rules of the present tense, the articles and so on?
HAVE A LOOK AT http://anaproy.homeip.net/unilang/learnitalian_en.html
e-mail me: chinobert@tin.it
VIVA L'ITALIA! :D

TOMINHO

Postby TOMINHO » 2003-07-09, 20:23

Em português do Brasil pode se falar ESTOU SABENDO em vez de EU SEI.
Será que isso é possível também em italiano?

In Brazilian Portuguese it is possible to use ESTOU SABENDO (=I AM KNOWING) for EU SEI (=I KNOW). I wonder if this can be done in Italian as well: STO SAPENDO vs (LO) SO.

obrigado.
Le ringrazio.
8)

TOMINHO

Postby TOMINHO » 2003-07-09, 20:28

CERCASI vs SI CERCA

I've seen many examples of CERCASI structures in Italian newspapers.
And the grammar books say SI CERCA should be used :?

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Postby leppie » 2003-07-09, 21:03

TOMINHO wrote:CERCASI vs SI CERCA

I've seen many examples of CERCASI structures in Italian newspapers.
And the grammar books say SI CERCA should be used :?


If you are asking about purity... Then write to "L'accademia della crusca", but I'm quite
sure it's correct.

cercasi, affitasi (loan), vendesi (sell) and so on are very used.


But

there's a common and nasty mistake... when subject is plural you have to use
cercansi, vendonsi, affitansi (cercano+si, vendono+si, affittano+si), but most of
the time you will see the wrong:
*cercasi appartamenti
Se il drago rifiuta di combattere,
forse è solo pigro.
Ma se ignora la zanzara,
allora è davvero addormentato.

TOMINHO

Postby TOMINHO » 2003-07-10, 5:49

leppie wrote:
TOMINHO wrote:CERCASI vs SI CERCA

I've seen many examples of CERCASI structures in Italian newspapers.
And the grammar books say SI CERCA should be used :?


If you are asking about purity... Then write to "L'accademia della crusca", but I'm quite
sure it's correct.

cercasi, affitasi (loan), vendesi (sell) and so on are very used.


But

there's a common and nasty mistake... when subject is plural you have to use
cercansi, vendonsi, affitansi (cercano+si, vendono+si, affittano+si), but most of
the time you will see the wrong:
*cercasi appartamenti


according to general linguistics CERCASI APPARTAMENTI is correct :)

CERCANOSI APPARTAMENTI would mean ONE APPARTMENT IS LOOKING FOR ANOTHER ONE :)

in Brazilian Portuguese many linguists are now ready to accept

Procuram-se moças [Girls are looking for each other] being different than
Procura-se moças [Girls are looked for = We're looking for the girls]

TOMINHO

Postby TOMINHO » 2003-07-10, 5:54

Parents are loved (by us, or by everyone): AMA-SE OS PAIS

(A century ago one used to write AMA-SE AOS PAIS but this is no longer
done in written Brazilian Portuguese, unless poetic :) )


Parents love each other (one parent loves another): AMAM-SE OS PAIS.

How do I say these two sentences in Italian?

:D

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Postby leppie » 2003-07-10, 7:24

TOMINHO wrote:according to general linguistics CERCASI APPARTAMENTI is correct :)


Well, according to specific italian grammar is a mistake....:roll:
And I don't believe that general linguistic could be so specific about plural matching rules...

CERCANOSI APPARTAMENTI would mean ONE APPARTMENT IS LOOKING FOR ANOTHER ONE :)


Not at all... In italian only the si passivante (passive si) can be put after the verb in finite
form. the reflexive/recriprocal si is always before the verbs (in a finite form)...
and it's cercansi, not cercanosi....

if you want to say that appartments are looking for eachother (one another) the form is
gli appartamenti si cercano.

(with infinite or gerundio is different:
cercarsi/cercandosi is the reciprocal/reflexive form)

BUT---
You may also say, if you are looking for apartments:
si cercano appartamenti.
but not:
si cerca appartamenti..... this is wrong. Whatever general semantic says....
Se il drago rifiuta di combattere,
forse è solo pigro.
Ma se ignora la zanzara,
allora è davvero addormentato.

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Postby leppie » 2003-07-10, 7:32

TOMINHO wrote:Parents are loved (by us, or by everyone): AMA-SE OS PAIS

i genitori sono amati (the most used form)
si amano i genitori (but this look like an advice, an order and old-fashioned)
i genitori, si amano (also really old-fashioned, advice, order)

Parents love each other (one parent loves another): AMAM-SE OS PAIS.

I genitori si amano
Se il drago rifiuta di combattere,
forse è solo pigro.
Ma se ignora la zanzara,
allora è davvero addormentato.

TOMINHO

Postby TOMINHO » 2003-07-10, 23:59

SONO AMATO is present or perfect?


SONO NATO is perfect (right?)...

Sono nato molti anni fa :)

it's very difficult to know then it is perfect and/or present, when is passive voice and when is active one. :?

SONO AMATO = I AM LOVED
SONO NATO = I WAS BORN

why is that?

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Postby leppie » 2003-07-11, 7:59

TOMINHO wrote:SONO AMATO is present or perfect?

is Present
SONO NATO is perfect (right?)...

Yes.

it's very difficult to know then it is perfect and/or present, when is passive voice and when is active one. :?
SONO AMATO = I AM LOVED
SONO NATO = I WAS BORN

why is that?

Language evolution?

The reason is that amare is transitive, so
sono amato is a present
nascere is intransitive... In a more logical languages (spanish?) we
would say
ho nato.
But we are italians... (and French, and German) and so we say
sono nato.

If you want I can also write something about historical reasons which lead to such
a situation....
Se il drago rifiuta di combattere,
forse è solo pigro.
Ma se ignora la zanzara,
allora è davvero addormentato.

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Postby Psi-Lord » 2003-07-11, 9:16

leppie wrote:If you want I can also write something about historical reasons which lead to such a situation....

I'd personally love to read about it, leppie! :)
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Postby dando » 2003-07-15, 18:01

Leppone! :D
Ho controllato sul mio vocabolario e...
ABAT- JOUR è MASCHILE!
A chi vuoi darla a bere! :D

Guest

Postby Guest » 2003-07-16, 6:16

dando wrote:Leppone! :D
Ho controllato sul mio vocabolario e...
ABAT- JOUR è MASCHILE!
A chi vuoi darla a bere! :D


também è maschile em português del Brasile :)

vuol dire:

Policial que fica à espreita de ladrões, assaltantes, etc. :D

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Postby dando » 2003-07-21, 16:32

Hello folk :)
I'd like to explain something more about "to be born" and that all.

If you look up in a dictionary, one of the translations for "to bear" will be "partorire" in Italian. Actually "partorire" is the action that a mother does to have a child (Do Not Misunderstand!). In Italian it's a transitive verb (Mia madre partorì > CHI? > Mio fratello), so you use the auxiliary "avere" to build perfect tenses (Mia madre ha partorito mio fratello).

As it is also in English, it's preferred the passive form because it's known that you were born by your mother:

My mother bore me in 1988.
I was born in 1988 (by my mother).

PAY ATTENTION! In Italian, we use another verb, instead of "partorire"! It's "nascere" and it expresses the child's action, not the mother's one. You can say, it means "to come to the world". As one English verb doesn't exist as translation of "nascere", it's often translated as "to be born", the pasive form of "to bear"(that in Italian would be "essere partorito"!).
"Nascere" is an intransitive verb (Io nasco > CHI? > ---), so you use the auxiliary "essere" to build perfect tenses.

PARTORIRE > mother's action > transitive > u use AVERE > u can build PASSIVE FORM
NASCERE > child's action > intransitive > u use ESSERE > u cannot build PASSIVE FORM

"Sono amato" is present BUT passive
"Sono nato" is perfect BUT active

One last thing:
The transitive verbs use AVERE as auxiliary, because in passive form they have to use ESSERE
The intransitive verbs use ESSERE as auxiliary, because they DON'T have passive form.
Is it OK now? :wink:

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Postby leppie » 2003-07-22, 8:34

dando wrote:Hello folk :)
One last thing:
The transitive verbs use AVERE as auxiliary, because in passive form they have to use ESSERE
The intransitive verbs use ESSERE as auxiliary, because they DON'T have passive form.
Is it OK now? :wink:


Dando, is a little more complicated than this, as french and german (and maybe other)
people know: :lol:

For some intransitive verb ESSERE is used, for other AVERE
(sono nato, but ho nuotato, ho scioperato, ho tremato)
For a few both are possible, with different nuances, like correre
ho corso tutta la mattina
sono corso qui appena ho potuto...
Se il drago rifiuta di combattere,
forse è solo pigro.
Ma se ignora la zanzara,
allora è davvero addormentato.

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Postby Fenek » 2003-07-23, 20:58

Ciao! :)
Sono sempre più interessato ai dialetti italiani. Quando ero in Italia, ho visto dizionari 'Italiano-Veneto', 'Italiano-Piemontese' ecc., che suggerisce che 1) veneto e piemontese siano dialetti abbastanza diversi dall'italiano letterario 2) veneto e piemontese siano standarizzati (siano stabilite le regole grammatiche, il vocabolario ecc.). Vorrei sapere di più!
Primo, vorrei sapere quali dialetti voi, cari italiani di UniLang, conoscete. Allora, vi faccio un interrogatorio ;)
:arrow: Ho già sentito Francy parlare in dialetto. Francy, sai come è classificato questo dialetto? Che dialetto è?
:arrow: E ho parlato con la Darkroom del dialetto locale quando ero a Verona. Allora, anche la regione di Verona ha il suo proprio dialetto...
:arrow: leppie, so che abiti a Milano. Sai parlare in qualche dialetto?
:arrow: dando, scusa, non mi ricordo da dove vieni (dal sud?). Tu conosci qualche dialetto?

PS. Come sempre: se notate un errore linguistico nel mio messagio, correggetelo per favore!

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Postby dando » 2003-07-23, 21:16

Ciao Fenek!
Solo una piccola correzione prima di presentarmi un po': le regole grammaticali e non grammatiche :)
Allora: io sono di Foggia, una città del sud, in Puglia. Il mio dialetto appartiene a quelli meridionali ed è piuttosto simile al napoletano. Se vuoi sapere di più, sono a tua disposizione!
Ciao! :wink:

TOMINHO

Postby TOMINHO » 2003-07-23, 23:47

Italian language spoken in Istria (Western Region of Croatia) has several dialects.

What I have noticed:


1. verbal endings: -ar, -er, -ir (and not -are, -ere, ire)
2. different usage:
Buon dì (and not Buongiorno)
3. different pronunciation: pasta is pronounced pashta (sh like in SHINE)

:P


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