Fiorentino e la sua città

Koko
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Re: Fiorentino e la sua città

Postby Koko » 2014-11-11, 19:12

Ha, me be posh? Never.

I may look into the accent, though. Is it like the British accent of Italian?

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Re: Fiorentino e la sua città

Postby Koko » 2014-11-12, 1:15

IpseDixit wrote:
Though, I really like intervocalic spirantization and deaffrication :) particularly the [ʒ].


Well, you'll get to hear those a lot. ;)

I love your accent so much so that I've incorporated the quirks aforementioned (as far as this post goes) into my conlang named after me.


Want to hear more about this amazing ideer of mine? Tune in next week where we talk about the magical masterpiece that is Koko ['koho].

… or you know, just read about its inception in the conlangs forum (don't ask about the "hashi being my ex" thing: it be private ya hear? And it's explained in the last few pages of the person after me game there).

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Re: Fiorentino e la sua città

Postby Koko » 2014-11-12, 8:03

M'ho accorso di dover iniziare ad aumentare la mia conoscenza passiva di questo linguaggio :roll: .

Almeno conosco il verbo gabare per Itikar.

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Re: Fiorentino e la sua città

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-11-12, 10:54

garbare

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Re: Fiorentino e la sua città

Postby language student » 2014-11-12, 11:30


IpseDixit

Re: Fiorentino e la sua città

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-11-12, 11:41

Sorry but I gave him that link like months ago, you can see that on the first page of this thread...

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Re: Fiorentino e la sua città

Postby Koko » 2014-11-12, 15:15

IpseDixit wrote:garbare

Ah sì. Ora mi ricordo. Ho saputo che sembra "garbage."

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Re: Fiorentino e la sua città

Postby Koko » 2014-11-17, 0:00

È qualcosa simile ai tuque in Firenze?

IpseDixit

Re: Fiorentino e la sua città

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-11-17, 0:14

Koko wrote:C'è qualcosa di simile ai tuque a Firenze?


Sì.

IpseDixit

Re: Fiorentino e la sua città

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-11-19, 16:14

Koko wrote:Ha, me be posh? Never.

I may look into the accent, though. Is it like the British accent of Italian?


I didn't see your and Tenereef's posts. Honestly I'm not so sure that the Milan accent is really considered "posh".

As for the Milan accent = British accent, it depends what you mean by that, if you mean the accent that is usually considered beautiful and cool, well in that case I would say nobody considers the Milan accent particularly beautiful and cool.

As for TV, well TV tends to neutralize any accent. That of Milan included. The accent of Mediaset (the national TV based in Milan) is not the accent of Milan, it is such a softened and neutralized accent that for me it's impossible to tell where who's speaking is from. I just can tell whether they are from above or below the La Spezia-Rimini line, but I wouldn't be able to be more spot-on.

Ambra Angiolini still has a Roman accent, I can't spot any hint of "Milanization". But, again, as I've said, if you want to work in the media, you have to learn to "soften" your accent, whatever accent you have.

Tuscany doesn't have its own national TV that's true, but it has its own cinema (exported in the rest of the country).

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Re: Fiorentino e la sua città

Postby Itikar » 2014-11-19, 18:57

For goodness' sake, Koko, stay as much away from Milanese accent as you can!!! It is mocked by many even here in Lombardy itself!
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Re: Fiorentino e la sua città

Postby Koko » 2014-11-19, 22:55

:shock: I wasn't going to use it. Once I found out it uses /dz/ for "z" where it would normally be /ts/ I didn't like it. Then I find out zio/zia using /ts/ has become/is becoming a Tuscanism? That's how I've been pronouncing zio and zia 8-) . Is this true that the voiceless affricate is a Tuscanism?

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Re: Fiorentino e la sua città

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-11-20, 0:21

Koko wrote:Is this true that the voiceless affricate is a Tuscanism?


No.

Tenereef was just talking about the word zio.

Even in milanese, I actually think they do have the voiceless affricate.

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Re: Fiorentino e la sua città

Postby Itikar » 2014-11-20, 12:29

Yes, they do.
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Re: Fiorentino e la sua città

Postby OldBoring » 2014-11-21, 4:19

But nowadays, ahimè, there's the tendency to teach Italian for Foreigners with simplified pronunciation rules, where the "advised" pronunciation is to always pronounce all initial z as voiced /dz/, and all intervocalic s as voiced /z/ (except in compounds where s is the initial).
Unfortunately, this kind of pronunciation is even thought in schools to young people, so even I unconsciously use it in formal and semi-formal registers.

So I say /dzio/ in high registers, and /tsio/ in low registers... so ironically I'm farther from Standard italian pronunciation in the high register.

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Re: Fiorentino e la sua città

Postby Koko » 2014-11-21, 5:37

That's dumb! The regular pronunciations are so much better and pleasant. I would never want to say /dzio/! Ahimè indeed, Youngfun! Teachers can be very lazy sometimes :| . Though, even when most would go for the intervocalically voiced s, I go for [s] because of my hatred of voiced /s/. I mean, if it's called for or I personally prefer it voiced, then sure. So I'm not totally perfectly standard myself (but hey, there's rules that say single s's have to be voiced betwixt vowels: you guys and other sources say it's fine too).

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Re: Fiorentino e la sua città

Postby Itikar » 2014-11-21, 13:32

Youngfun wrote:So I say /dzio/ in high registers, and /tsio/ in low registers... so ironically I'm farther from Standard italian pronunciation in the high register.
Really? When we spoke on Skype once I noticed you pronounced your z's correctly. I clearly remember that you pronounced "zuppa" more than once and all times it had /ts/.

Did I influence you with my pronounciation back then? O_o

By the way this thing about z's is silly, because for most Northerners it is just an hypercorrection, since in local vernaculars the cognates of those same words begin with an unvoiced consonant.
On top of that I have heard initial unvoiced z's from many non-Tuscan speakers, including an actor on TV and even from a dubber. So, there is no serious reason to adopt this hypercorrection.
Koko wrote:Though, even when most would go for the intervocalically voiced s, I go for [s] because of my hatred of voiced /s/.
If it's a common word be advised that speakers that still have the distinction, as, say, I, tend to be sensitive about this. So be careful and stick to the standard: caso and francese are voiced, while naso and inglese are not. Be advised also that if you pronounce as voiced an unvoiced s it sounds bad to us, but if you pronounce an unvoiced as voiced it sounds even worse.

I wonder how other Unilangers with the distinction (if there are any) feel about this. :hmm:
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Re: Fiorentino e la sua città

Postby OldBoring » 2014-11-21, 14:55

Itikar wrote:Really? When we spoke on Skype once I noticed you pronounced your z's correctly. I clearly remember that you pronounced "zuppa" more than once and all times it had /ts/.

Did I influence you with my pronounciation back then? O_o

Actually "zuppa" with /ts/ is also my natural pronunciation, but more likely I would have pronounced it with /dz/ if I were in an interrogazione at school.

I wonder how other Unilangers with the distinction (if there are any) feel about this. :hmm:

Hmmm, I think only [middle age?] Tuscans make the distinction...

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Re: Fiorentino e la sua città

Postby Itikar » 2014-11-21, 15:17

I've met many Tuscan farmers last week and virtually all of them had it. I think it is more a rural vs. urban issue.

But in general, yes, from a good ten years or so I don't recall having met any Tuscan with the distinction who was younger than me. :(
Pretty sad.
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Re: Fiorentino e la sua città

Postby Koko » 2014-11-21, 17:05

There's a distinction? Itikar! Show me the ways :D Actually I could use that pronunciation dictionary you guys referred me to a while ago: it would probably show.


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