IpseDixit wrote:Italian spawned from Florentine, it's not a compromise, a collage between different "dialects". It does have influences from other "dialects" but the basis remains Florentine.
Standard Ladin And Rumatsch Grischun are a mix of different dialects, they are a compromise, a hybrid, a hodgepodge of different variants.
So... like Standard German.
The point is that "Tuscan" evolved outside of Tuscany and acquired different features even from Florentine itself. IMO saying that people outside of Tuscany speak Tuscan is a bit like saying that Romance-speaking people speak vulgar Latin. It may be historically correct but definitely very odd.
I don't mind being odd. Although to be honest outside of a language forum I wouldn't call it Tuscan.
To me the flaw in this approach seems to be the fact that you still have all the natural dialects endangered as you would concentrate your efforts on an artificial standard. I don't know, but to me this looks like more of a political act (for example aimed at strengthening and uniting a people's consciousness, which I'm pretty sure it's the case of Catalonia and the Basque Country) rather than something done out of love for minority languages. Some posts above I've already expressed my humble opinion about what to do. It's not very articulated, that's true, but it's better than nothing.
Is there any language policy or ideology that is truly apolitical? The spread of Italian itself was propagated precisely to construct a nation-state, and we know this because the country's founders openly admitted to as much. Any language policy that respects other varieties spoken in Italy without subordinating them to Italian will be seen as "political", whether we like it or not.
I was looking through your posts on the issue, and there's a few things that struck me:
But yeah probably Ladin is in a privileged situation in comparison with other minority languages since ... we have a stronger consciousness of being a people.
Is this not "political"? To a certain extent, the preservation of a language is the preservation of a language community, an ethnic group. In that sense, all language use is inherently political.
IpseDixit wrote:No if we introduce policies aimed at saving dialects/regional languages.
Are there any policies here that don't subordinate everything to Italian? It's pretty clear that social bilingualism in a given territory is unsustainable and always leads to the minoritised variety giving way to the dominant one -- how then are we supposed to create an Italy where every kind of speech is dominant in its own territory? Where Italians develop passive knowledge of neighbouring varieties rather than resorting to a lingua franca for all extraregional communication? Do you even contemplate such an Italy?
I do agree though that the standard is not necessarily the key to revitalisation, and that in a policy or strategy focused on standardisation and the propogation of a new standard we just decentralise the evil rather than doing away with it. We need to create a world where we don't have to "save" languages, but where languages save themselves. In that sense, the fight for minority languages is the fight for multilingualism in general - in education and media for example it's important to put an emphasis on the languages that are found in or near the environment of the students or viewers. In Europe, instead of promoting real plurilingualism that focuses on neighbouring languages, immigrant languages and other languages that are relevant in people's environment, basically all that is taught is English and at a push French or German. In Castilian Spain not a single school offers Galaico-Portuguese or Catalan nor is it possible to view TV in those languages in most of the territory, in Catalonia everyone knows Spanish but very little French or Italian, and so on... That is certainly not good for minority languages.
Lowena wrote:Maybe this incredibly boring talk about Italian could be split to, I don't know, the Italian forum? When I created the first thread I intended it to be the language version of the Random Complaints And Advice/Random Happiness threads, not a place for in depth discussion on a very narrow topic that doesn't interest most people.
And before any of you say that it doesn't matter that I created it, yes it does. There's such a rule of being off-topic, and who besides the topic creator creates the topic? If that didn't matter, then there'd be no use for individual threads, and the forum would be better as an open chatroom.
I suggest you PM a moderator. I certainly wouldn't mind it being split.
IpseDixit wrote:It seems that people learning Italian are extremely fond of the word amico when addressing someone, I don't understand why, I don't even call my real friends amico, it's so weird and slightly annoying.
It always stroke me as odd how often people attempting at Spanish in US movies or series say amigo
. I feel exactly the same you described about Italian. We wouldn't ever use amigo
when addressing anyone.
I noted that Punjabis in Barcelona tend to overuse the term amigo
, although I imagine that's due to direct translation of Punjabi yaar
. They (translating "bhai") and the Arabs (translating "khoya" or "akhi") tend to overuse the term hermano
Saim wrote:In what meaningful sense is Standard Ladin or Rumantsch Grishun more of a "conlang" than Standard Italian?
In that Standard Italian was actually based on a lingua franca
which was in actual use (i.e. Florentine spoken by non-Florentines). I've met people who write
Rumantsch Grischun, but no one who actually speaks
That's true, although in this case we can't expect standards of these languages to develop "naturally", because if we adopt a laissez-faire additude now these languages will be eliminated by inertia.