Minoritized Italian languages

IpseDixit

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-04-01, 12:50

What the hell are you talking about? Everybody speaks Italian already.

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Levike
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Re: Random language thread 2

Postby Levike » 2014-04-01, 13:02

Don't you occasionally speak them at home? ( I mean the other languages )

I wanted to say that the other ones might totally disappear like Dalmatian.
Are they already that dead?
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

IpseDixit

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-04-01, 13:17

Levente wrote:Don't you occasionally speak them at home? ( I mean the other languages )

I wanted to say that the other ones might totally disappear like Dalmatian.
Are they already that dead?


No they are not dead, actually some of them are not even considered endangered, like Venetian, Sardinian, Sicilian, Friulian... and yes some people speak their dialect at home, don't know the statistics though. This doesn't mean that they do not know Italian. Those people who speak their dialect are of course native Italian speakers as well.

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Re: Random language thread 2

Postby Levike » 2014-04-01, 13:25

But aren't they condemned to fall out of use since they don't hold a big official status.
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

IpseDixit

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-04-01, 13:31

Levente wrote:But aren't they condemned to fall out of use since they don't hold a big official status.


Big official status? What do you mean?

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Re: Random language thread 2

Postby Levike » 2014-04-01, 13:34

Do you have television and newspapers in those languages?

Can you use them in official courts?

Do you learn in them in the elementary, high-school or university?
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

IpseDixit

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-04-01, 13:47

Levente wrote:Do you have television and newspapers in those languages?


Cannot speak for other languages but we do have TV and radio programmes and a newspaper in Ladin as well as books (and a yearly award for the best Ladin writer) and an on-line TV, websites, stage shows and masses oh and documents and road signs are written in Ladin too. But yeah probably Ladin is in a privileged situation in comparison with other minority languages since it has some laws protecting it, and we have a stronger consciousness of being a people.

Image

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Can you use them in official courts?


No.

Do you learn in them in elementary, high-school or university?


Some of them, yes. Like Ladin, Friulian and Sardinian.

Levente wrote:But aren't they condemned to fall out of use since they don't hold a big official status.


No if we introduce policies aimed at saving dialects/regional languages.
Last edited by IpseDixit on 2014-04-01, 20:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Random language thread 2

Postby loqu » 2014-04-01, 16:58

IpseDixit wrote:
Levente wrote:But are those regional differences in dialects so big that the standards would look like a conlang?


Yes, and it's not that it would look like a conlang, it would be a conlang.

Most standardized languages are originally conlangs anyway.
Dir la veritat sempre és revolucionari.

IpseDixit

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-04-01, 17:15

loqu wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:
Levente wrote:But are those regional differences in dialects so big that the standards would look like a conlang?


Yes, and it's not that it would look like a conlang, it would be a conlang.

Most standardized languages are originally conlangs anyway.


And we usually accuse standardized national languages for the moribund state of many dialects. So why creating new standard conlangs that would be imposed upon people?

I personally think that the ideal way to go is to leave dialects as they are, they are not the problem, the problem is, first and foremost, the mindset of people. They have to understand that dialects are a valuable asset worth being taught/learnt. Then the gov should implement a series of policies aimed at protecting them ( like financing a dialectal publishing industry and other initiatives alike).

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Re: Random language thread 2

Postby linguoboy » 2014-04-01, 17:30

IpseDixit wrote:I personally think that the ideal way to go is to leave dialects as they are, they are not the problem, the problem is, first and foremost, the mindset of people. They have to understand that dialects are a valuable asset worth being taught/learnt. Then the gov should implement a series of policies aimed at protecting them ( like financing a dialectal publishing industry and other initiatives alike).

I'm not sure that pouring money into publishing is the best way forward given the state of the industry these days. Much better to look at ways of encouraging people to use dialects online. The Internet has made publishers of us all, what we need is an audience and a platform.
"Richmond is a real scholar; Owen just learns languages because he can't bear not to know what other people are saying."--Margaret Lattimore on her two sons

IpseDixit

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-04-01, 17:46

linguoboy wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:I personally think that the ideal way to go is to leave dialects as they are, they are not the problem, the problem is, first and foremost, the mindset of people. They have to understand that dialects are a valuable asset worth being taught/learnt. Then the gov should implement a series of policies aimed at protecting them ( like financing a dialectal publishing industry and other initiatives alike).

I'm not sure that pouring money into publishing is the best way forward given the state of the industry these days. Much better to look at ways of encouraging people to use dialects online. The Internet has made publishers of us all, what we need is an audience and a platform.


True. I was thinking about what I personally like :silly: even though some written (on paper) form of the language could be a nice and useful thing too, especially for the future (you don't know how the things written on the internet will wind up in the future)...

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Re: Random language thread 2

Postby linguoboy » 2014-04-01, 17:56

IpseDixit wrote:True. I was thinking about what I personally like :silly: even though some written (on paper) form of the language could be a nice and useful thing too, especially for the future (you don't know how the things written on the internet will wind up in the future)...

Of course, but I'm not sure I would necessarily advocate a government subsidy for that. To build a readership, you need to get people comfortable reading dialect texts. Once you've got that, then publishing (in whatever format) should naturally follow. Printing on demand has been a godsend for niche works in other areas, I don't see why that model wouldn't work here.

I can't speak specifically to the situation in Italy, but one problem I've noticed with Irish is that there's a lot of excellent literature that exists already but isn't readily available or, if it is, then only in standardised editions. Most of the Munster dialect texts I've found online are there solely due to the work of lone enthusiasts keeping busy in their spare time. This would be a sad state of affairs anywhere, but in a nation with a national board charged with preserving a promoting the language--which is mandatory in all schools--it's nothing short of a disgrace. The government should be doing more to keep such works in print and to make available for free or low cost electronic texts of those which are out of copyright.
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Re: Random language thread 2

Postby loqu » 2014-04-01, 18:03

linguoboy wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:True. I was thinking about what I personally like :silly: even though some written (on paper) form of the language could be a nice and useful thing too, especially for the future (you don't know how the things written on the internet will wind up in the future)...

Of course, but I'm not sure I would necessarily advocate a government subsidy for that. To build a readership, you need to get people comfortable reading dialect texts. Once you've got that, then publishing (in whatever format) should naturally follow. Printing on demand has been a godsend for niche works in other areas, I don't see why that model wouldn't work here.

I can't speak specifically to the situation in Italy, but one problem I've noticed with Irish is that there's a lot of excellent literature that exists already but isn't readily available or, if it is, then only in standardised editions. Most of the Munster dialect texts I've found online are there solely due to the work of lone enthusiasts keeping busy in their spare time. This would be a sad state of affairs anywhere, but in a nation with a national board charged with preserving a promoting the language--which is mandatory in all schools--it's nothing short of a disgrace. The government should be doing more to keep such works in print and to make available for free or low cost electronic texts of those which are out of copyright.

At least around here, what happens is that people are not used to read in those dialects, therefore they don't demand that kind of literature; on the other hand, they usually reject it. I think that's where the government should do something; I see it rather about education than subsidies.
Dir la veritat sempre és revolucionari.

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Re: Random language thread 2

Postby Car » 2014-04-01, 18:07

linguoboy wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:True. I was thinking about what I personally like :silly: even though some written (on paper) form of the language could be a nice and useful thing too, especially for the future (you don't know how the things written on the internet will wind up in the future)...

Of course, but I'm not sure I would necessarily advocate a government subsidy for that. To build a readership, you need to get people comfortable reading dialect texts. Once you've got that, then publishing (in whatever format) should naturally follow. Printing on demand has been a godsend for niche works in other areas, I don't see why that model wouldn't work here.

Or e-books. There's quite a hype about self-published e-books in the US and the UK, right? Unless the platforms reject texts in those languages (I heard of Amazon rejecting dictionaries for some languages for the Kindle), that seems to be a good platform.

I do wonder why there are no Asterix translations in Italian dialects/ regional languages. They exist for several languages and dialects (see here), so why not for a country as populous as Italy? The German Mundart editions are very popular and, based on what I read, led to the translation into the French regional languages.
Please correct my mistakes!

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Re: Random language thread 2

Postby linguoboy » 2014-04-01, 18:20

loqu wrote:At least around here, what happens is that people are not used to read in those dialects, therefore they don't demand that kind of literature; on the other hand, they usually reject it. I think that's where the government should do something; I see it rather about education than subsidies.

Me, too. (Which is part of what makes the Irish situation so frustrating: there's a dedicated place in the curriculum for the minority language and they make terrible use of it.)

Imagine, for instance, the impact of asking pupils to keep a blog in dialect. Or giving them an assignment to research the presence of minority languages on the web. Or having them film and post videos in their natural vernacular. There's so much that could be done here if--as IpseDixit says--the government (which is to say the people of Italy whom it represents) simply made it a priority.
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Re: Random language thread 2

Postby md0 » 2014-04-01, 18:41

Cypriot Greek gained a fair bit of prestige with the blogosphere boom of the 00s.
It was actually more intuitive to people to write in CyG instead of reading in it, at first.
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Re: Random language thread 2

Postby Itikar » 2014-04-01, 20:28

Saim wrote:What bothers me is the attitude that it's more important to make sure no-one calls Italian "Tuscan"

Because it is not true. Italian is based on Florentine, precisely on Old Florentine.
But there isn't only Florentine in Tuscany, there are also other Tuscan dialects and despite an increasing Florentinisation and current Italianisation they have managed to survive to this day.

Moreover nobody really denies the Tuscan roots of Italian but it does not help that Tuscan was used as the only official language by many Italians states several centuries before a unified Italy was even thought. The kingdom of Naples used it from the XVI century until its end. Moreover, while they boast that Tuscan is Italian, Tuscans generally get pissed off and feel insulted when someone affirms that Italian, as it is spoken for instance in Milan or Palermo, is Tuscan.

or group some "dialetti" into larger categories

I think that Dante himself grouped them somewhat in the "De vulgari eloquentia" and as far as I know they have always been classified in a way or the other.

or give them a standard than to actually save these varieties, and the status of most of them is looking pretty terminal.

A large standard in several cases would probably cause more harm than good and ultimately alienate people even further.
On the other hand adopting several small standards would risk insufficient support for them.

The latter is already practised with some success on Lombard and Emilian-Romagnol Wikipedias.
For some problematic varieties like my own Mantuan, however, even the proposed standard is practically not much more than a unified orthography. :(

In other cases even this approach hasn't worked. Take for instance the case of Tarantino where it was started a new Tarantino Wikipedia project completely separated from Neapolitan or Sicilian ones.

On top of that there are also important varieties in Italy that are still considered dialects of Italian even by international linguists.
Genzanese is a beautiful Romance language with a full neuter gender and other nice features which is part of the group "dialetti dei castelli romani".
Did you know that it existed?
Do you think that it deserves to be considered only a weird dialect of Italian?
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Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-04-01, 20:38

I bet the Tarantino wiki is a bloody mess.
linguoboy wrote:That's ironic, because giving it penultimate stress just reminds me of this skit:
Even more so since I can't stand Monty Python.

IpseDixit

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-04-01, 20:40

Itikar, come tu l'hai scoperto 'sto Genzanese? :)

Comunque su i' sito da te fornito, se pigio su "note di grammatica" 'unn m'esce nulla. :(

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Re: Random language thread 2

Postby Itikar » 2014-04-01, 20:48

IpseDixit wrote:Anybody who knows something about the Italian reality knows that people would reject it outright. I cannot imagine my Modenese friend accepting Bolognese as the standard Emilian language. And yet again I don't see how this could be considered an improvement.

It's not our fault if our ancestors decided to wage bloody wars against neighbouring towns and villages.

Besides I see now that you have answered better than I did. :mrgreen:

Levente wrote:Do you have television and newspapers in those languages?

Yes, but only at the local level. Tv Parma broadcasts comedies in Parmesan quite often, although the network is in Italian.

Can you use them in official courts?

No, but you can use them in public offices if the employee speaks them.

Do you learn in them in the elementary, high-school or university?

It depends. In university level they are studied and considerede languages from many years.
In lower education the situation is more complex, but they are taught somewhere.
Not enough unfortunately.

linguoboy wrote:I'm not sure that pouring money into publishing is the best way forward given the state of the industry these days. Much better to look at ways of encouraging people to use dialects online. The Internet has made publishers of us all, what we need is an audience and a platform.

How would you judge the resources developed by Sardinian authorities for the language?
See: http://www.sardegnacultura.it/linguasar ... media.html
Fletto i muscoli e sono nel vuoto!
All corrections are welcome and appreciated.


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