Minoritized Italian languages

User avatar
Michael
Posts: 7122
Joined: 2009-07-21, 3:07
Real Name: Mike
Gender: male
Location: Oak Park, IL
Country: US United States (United States)
Contact:

Minoritized Italian languages

Postby Michael » 2014-03-29, 14:35

I think that if I'm to standardize my dialect in order to document it, I will just call it lingua meridionale. I don't care if it would be ambiguous, since it would purposely be so.
American English (en-us) Pizzonese (nap) N Italian (it) Mexican Spanish (es-mx) Brazilian Portuguese (pt-br) Albanian (sq) B1 Greek (el) Persian (fa) A2 Romanian (ro) Old English (en_old) Turkish (tr) Azerbaijani (az) A1
„Çdo njeri është peng i veprave të veta.‟
Every human being is hostage to their own deeds.

User avatar
Itikar
Posts: 900
Joined: 2012-10-10, 19:56
Gender: male
Country: IT Italy (Italia)

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby Itikar » 2014-03-29, 14:56

It would certainly be much better than calling it "Neapolitan". :D
Fletto i muscoli e sono nel vuoto!
All corrections are welcome and appreciated.

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10658
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-03-29, 17:07

Itikar wrote:It would certainly be much better than calling it "Neapolitan". :D
Why? Isn't that where it's spoken?

IpseDixit

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-03-29, 18:32

mōdgethanc wrote:
Itikar wrote:It would certainly be much better than calling it "Neapolitan". :D
Why? Isn't that where it's spoken?


It's spoken all around Campania (the region of which Naples is the capital) and other Italian regions as well. I don't know why it was given the name "Neapolitan", if it's because Naples is its birthplace or simply because they couldn't come up with a better term, but in fact it's a bit like calling English "Londoner" or "Oxonian".

User avatar
Itikar
Posts: 900
Joined: 2012-10-10, 19:56
Gender: male
Country: IT Italy (Italia)

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby Itikar » 2014-03-29, 18:45

mōdgethanc wrote:Why? Isn't that where it's spoken?

What is spoken in Naples and perhaps around the city is of course Neapolitan, but calling Neapolitan what is spoken in Bari and in L'Aquila goes a little over the board.
Besides I find weird also calling Calabrian Sicilian...
Fletto i muscoli e sono nel vuoto!
All corrections are welcome and appreciated.

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 5397
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: Novi Sad
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby Saim » 2014-03-29, 23:51

IpseDixit wrote:
mōdgethanc wrote:
Itikar wrote:It would certainly be much better than calling it "Neapolitan". :D
Why? Isn't that where it's spoken?


It's spoken all around Campania (the region of which Naples is the capital) and other Italian regions as well. I don't know why it was given the name "Neapolitan", if it's because Naples is its birthplace or simply because they couldn't come up with a better term, but in fact it's a bit like calling English "Londoner" or "Oxonian".


In the linguistic sense "Neapolitan" can be seen as referring to "Napolitania", the territory of the old Kingdom of Naples (a polity that, lest we forget, existed much longer than the Italian Republic has so far);

Image

Aóristos wrote:I think that if I'm to standardize my dialect in order to document it, I will just call it lingua meridionale. I don't care if it would be ambiguous, since it would purposely be so.


This isn't any weirder than Valencia, Andorra, Mexico or Panama. The fact that there isn't a common name is a symptom, not a cause of the language's lack of standardisation.

Itikar wrote:It would certainly be much better than calling it "Neapolitan". :D


It seems Italian is the only speech that has a name with any dignity. Everything else is dialetto or lingua regionale (which basically means the same thing, in the end).

Aóristos wrote:I think that if I'm to standardize my dialect in order to document it, I will just call it lingua meridionale. I don't care if it would be ambiguous, since it would purposely be so.


The fact that you can't picture you language in any other point other than with reference to Italian and the Italian Peninsula just goes to show how close it is to death. It is also a lingua septentrionale, because it is spoken in territories to the north to those where Sicilian, Maltese, Maghrebi Arabic, and so on are spoken.

User avatar
Itikar
Posts: 900
Joined: 2012-10-10, 19:56
Gender: male
Country: IT Italy (Italia)

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby Itikar » 2014-03-30, 0:43

Saim wrote:In the linguistic sense "Neapolitan" can be seen as referring to "Napolitania", the territory of the old Kingdom of Naples (a polity that, lest we forget, existed much longer than the Italian Republic has so far)

Then call Piedmontese Sardinian.
Fletto i muscoli e sono nel vuoto!
All corrections are welcome and appreciated.

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10658
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-03-30, 3:58

Saim wrote:The fact that you can't picture you language in any other point other than with reference to Italian and the Italian Peninsula just goes to show how close it is to death. It is also a lingua septentrionale, because it is spoken in territories to the north to those where Sicilian, Maltese, Maghrebi Arabic, and so on are spoken.
"Northern language"? What is the significance of this term?

User avatar
OldBoring
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 5919
Joined: 2012-12-08, 7:19
Real Name: Francesco
Gender: male
Location: Milan
Country: IT Italy (Italia)
Contact:

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby OldBoring » 2014-03-30, 4:14

I think that he means that it's northern when compared to Sicilian language.

International linguists call it Neapolitan, while italians call it "dialetti meridionali intermedi" (Intermediate Southern dialects) as opposed to Sicilian called "dialetti meridionali estremi" (Extreme Southern dialects). Because they are not languages with a standard variety, but rather dialect continuums (continua?) with huge differences. I doubt somebody from Molise would believe you if you tell them they speak the same language as the people from Naples.

A similar situation happens for Chinese dialects. There's no such thing as "Wu" language... the similarity between my dialect and Shanghainese is like... 30%?

For Neapolitan, in English I've also seen the term "Southern Italian".

User avatar
mōdgethanc
Posts: 10658
Joined: 2010-03-20, 5:27
Gender: male
Location: Toronto
Country: CA Canada (Canada)

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby mōdgethanc » 2014-03-30, 4:29

hāozigǎnr wrote:For Neapolitan, in English I've also seen the term "Southern Italian".
So Mike says it's central, Saim says it's northern and you say it's south. Which is it?

User avatar
OldBoring
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 5919
Joined: 2012-12-08, 7:19
Real Name: Francesco
Gender: male
Location: Milan
Country: IT Italy (Italia)
Contact:

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby OldBoring » 2014-03-30, 5:33

No, Mike said it was Southern (meridionale).
And Sami was criticizing that the name was too Italy-centred (that's like saying that Minnesota is the North for the Murkans. But it's South compared to Canada.)

Saim wrote:The fact that you can't picture you language in any other point other than with reference to Italian and the Italian Peninsula just goes to show how close it is to death. It is also a lingua settentrionale, because it is spoken in territories to the north to those where Sicilian, Maltese, Maghrebi Arabic, and so on are spoken.

If you want to keep the historical tie, the it's better to come up with a different adjective (just like paulista = from São Paulo state vs paulistano = from São Paulo city).
And there are names not referenced to Italy: in Naples it's napoletano, in Caserta it's casertano, in Pizzone it's pizzonese, etc.
Or you can say campano, molisano, abruzzese, etc.
In Italy (like in China) dialects are called with city and village names, or by region names when there are similar traits.

User avatar
Lazar Taxon
Posts: 1570
Joined: 2007-10-07, 8:00
Gender: male
Country: US United States (United States)

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby Lazar Taxon » 2014-03-30, 15:45

If you want a term referring to Southern Italy in general, maybe "Ausonian"?
Native: [flag=]en-us[/flag] Good: [flag=]es[/flag] [flag=]fr[/flag] Okay: [flag=]de[/flag] [flag=]la[/flag] Beginning: [flag=]it[/flag] Interested in: [flag=]he[/flag] [flag=]hi[/flag] [flag=]ru[/flag]

Today we are cats in the apocalypse!

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 5397
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: Novi Sad
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby Saim » 2014-03-31, 0:25

Itikar wrote:
Saim wrote:In the linguistic sense "Neapolitan" can be seen as referring to "Napolitania", the territory of the old Kingdom of Naples (a polity that, lest we forget, existed much longer than the Italian Republic has so far)

Then call Piedmontese Sardinian.


You're right, that was ridiculous. "Dialect", "regional language" and "Southern Italian" are much more rigourous, apolitical terms.

Everything from outside of Florence can be a dialetto but a couple of kilometres out of Campania and it's already inherently ridiculous or offensive to talk about "Neapolitan" - very coherent indeed...

hāozigǎnr wrote:No, Mike said it was Southern (meridionale).
And Sami was criticizing that the name was too Italy-centred (that's like saying that Minnesota is the North for the Murkans. But it's South compared to Canada.)


If the US declared it needed to elimonate Minnesota for the sake of some nebulous cpncept like national unity, then it would be even more comparable.

In Italy (like in China) dialects are called with city and village names, or by region names when there are similar traits.

And in both Italy and China, most of the linguistic diversity of the cpuntry is endangered.

User avatar
Itikar
Posts: 900
Joined: 2012-10-10, 19:56
Gender: male
Country: IT Italy (Italia)

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby Itikar » 2014-03-31, 18:40

Saim wrote:You're right, that was ridiculous. "Dialect", "regional language" and "Southern Italian" are much more rigourous, apolitical terms.

Everything from outside of Florence can be a dialetto but a couple of kilometres out of Campania and it's already inherently ridiculous or offensive to talk about "Neapolitan" - very coherent indeed.

Let's be frank then.
If there is anything ridiculous and offensive here certainly it is your arrogant assertion that the guys at Ethnologue have the right to decide the collective name for a myriad of languageS without minimally caring for the opinion of their speakers, or in this case simply for reality.

Since when should some guys in North America decide that Barese should be called Neapolitan?
There are many better names for it. Ausonian certainly would be fair and historically accurate.
Apulian (volgare pugliese), albeit a bit ambiguous today, was historically used to refer to the vernaculars of the area.

But no, our unforgivable crime is that we call them dialects and, by far less importantly, that we do not wish to give up our traditions, our roots, our culture, our history and our languageS for another dumb nationalism that this time uses the language of the big town nearby.

Barese is not Neapolitan, it's simply just that.
I'm sorry if it's so hard and bitter for you to accept.
Fletto i muscoli e sono nel vuoto!
All corrections are welcome and appreciated.

User avatar
OldBoring
Language Forum Moderator
Posts: 5919
Joined: 2012-12-08, 7:19
Real Name: Francesco
Gender: male
Location: Milan
Country: IT Italy (Italia)
Contact:

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby OldBoring » 2014-04-01, 2:12

Itikar wrote:Let's be frank then.
If there is anything ridiculous and offensive here certainly it is your arrogant assertion that the guys at Ethnologue have the right to decide the collective name for a myriad of languageS without minimally caring for the opinion of their speakers, or in this case simply for reality.

Since when should some guys in North America decide that Barese should be called Neapolitan?
There are many better names for it. Ausonian certainly would be fair and historically accurate.
Apulian (volgare pugliese), albeit a bit ambiguous today, was historically used to refer to the vernaculars of the area.

But no, our unforgivable crime is that we call them dialects and, by far less importantly, that we do not wish to give up our traditions, our roots, our culture, our history and our languageS for another dumb nationalism that this time uses the language of the big town nearby.

Barese is not Neapolitan, it's simply just that.
I'm sorry if it's so hard and bitter for you to accept.

:waytogo:

Saim wrote:Everything from outside of Florence can be a dialetto but a couple of kilometres out of Campania and it's already inherently ridiculous or offensive to talk about "Neapolitan" - very coherent indeed.

Florence itself has a dialetto, and villages a couple of km away from Florence have their own dialects, all different from the Florentine urban one.
What people speak (or used to speak, unfortunately) in the Southern Italy are dialects. You could argue that they're not dialects of the Italian language. Ethnologue would say they are dialects of Neapolitan - which for me is not accurate enough either. When each city and each village has its own dialect, it's difficult to classify them in larger "languages".
Neapolitan (from Naples) and Barese are more different to each other than Spanish and Portuguese.

Also, why don't you call Punjabi Islamabadish?

User avatar
Saim
Posts: 5397
Joined: 2011-01-22, 5:44
Location: Novi Sad
Country: RS Serbia (Србија)

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby Saim » 2014-04-01, 8:22

Itikar wrote:Let's be frank then.
If there is anything ridiculous and offensive here certainly it is your arrogant assertion that the guys at Ethnologue have the right to decide the collective name for a myriad of languageS without minimally caring for the opinion of their speakers, or in this case simply for reality.

Since when should some guys in North America decide that Barese should be called Neapolitan?
There are many better names for it. Ausonian certainly would be fair and historically accurate.
Apulian (volgare pugliese), albeit a bit ambiguous today, was historically used to refer to the vernaculars of the area.


The "guys at Ethnologue" are a bunch of hacks who I wouldn't trust to tie their own shoelaces. If Ausonian or Apulian is a better term, that's great. Anything is better than "Southern (Italian)" or "southern Italian dialects".

But no, our unforgivable crime is that we call them dialects and, by far less importantly, that we do not wish to give up our traditions, our roots, our culture, our history and our languageS for another dumb nationalism that this time uses the language of the big town nearby.


Your "unforgivable crime" is that you are giving them up and in droves. There's no European country that has more entries on the UNESCO list of endangered languages, a fact certainly worth some reflection. My issue is whether these languages will make it to the 22nd century and based on current trends we can pretty safely conclude that all or most of them wont!

I don't care what the names of these languages are, so long as there can be a name separate from the Italian that is wiping them out. What bothers me is the attitude that it's more important to make sure no-one calls Italian "Tuscan" or group some "dialetti" into larger categories or give them a standard than to actually save these varieties, and the status of most of them is looking pretty terminal.

hāozigǎnr wrote:Florence itself has a dialetto, and villages a couple of km away from Florence have their own dialects, all different from the Florentine urban one.
What people speak (or used to speak, unfortunately) in the Southern Italy are dialects. You could argue that they're not dialects of the Italian language. Ethnologue would say they are dialects of Neapolitan - which for me is not accurate enough either. When each city and each village has its own dialect, it's difficult to classify them in larger "languages".
Neapolitan (from Naples) and Barese are more different to each other than Spanish and Portuguese.


What is a "dialect"? Why are we incapable of using the term "dialect" without indicating its subordination to some other category (it's a dialect of...)? It's hard to classify them in languages - surely it's just as hard to classify what a "dialect" is? Surely any more regionalised approach to language classification is better than the dominant discourse where practically everything is a "dialect of" or a "badly spoken version of" Italian?

Would you be against the standardisation of other languages of the Peninsula because "different villages have different dialects" even if basically all those dialects are considered endangered?

Also, why don't you call Punjabi Islamabadish?


If I saw that as the only way to coalesce the language area behind a common name and prevent its absorption by Hindi-Urdu, I would. I certainly wouldn't mind if Punjabi was historically called "Lahori" by historical happenstance, although obviously already having a common name is much better. I will latch onto any available myths that will help raise the prestige of Punjabi.
Last edited by Saim on 2014-04-02, 16:22, edited 1 time in total.

IpseDixit

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-04-01, 8:49

Saim wrote: What bothers me is the attitude that it's more important to make sure no-one calls Italian "Tuscan"


In fact Italian is not Tuscan. You can call it upper-class-Florentine, but that wouldn't be 100% correct either.

What I see is you applying Spanish categories to the Italian situation, which is a bit annoying honestly.

Would you be against the standardisation of other languages of the Peninsula because "different villages have different dialects" even if basically all those dialects are considered endangered?


Would it really be an improvement to have a bunch of conlangs created by some linguists? Also in this case the "dialects" would die and we would be left with a few conlangs with no history behind, which nobody ever spoke. Do you really see it as desirable and as an improvement?
This is a question that I personally asked myself before ditching Standard Ladin[*] in favour of the "dialect" of my family.

[*] which btw hasn't really been accepted by Ladins so far (and the difference between the variants of Ladin is probably nothing compared to those of other regional languages), the same can be said about another alike experiment, Rumatsch Grishun, and this should really tell you something about how people like standardisation.

User avatar
Levike
Posts: 6153
Joined: 2013-04-22, 19:26
Real Name: Levi
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby Levike » 2014-04-01, 12:01

But are those regional differences in dialects so big that the standards would look like a conlang?

How about choosing one variety that's the most widespread.
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.

IpseDixit

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-04-01, 12:38

Levente wrote:But are those regional differences in dialects so big that the standards would look like a conlang?


Yes, and it's not that it would look like a conlang, it would be a conlang.

How about choosing one variety that's the most widespread.


Anybody who knows something about the Italian reality knows that people would reject it outright. I cannot imagine my Modenese friend accepting Bolognese as the standard Emilian language. And yet again I don't see how this could be considered an improvement.

Either way is nonsensical IMO. The first one because you'd have a smattering of soulless conlangs that nobody would feel as their own language, the second one because you foist, yet again, a foreign dialect upon other people who will never accept that anyway, so I personally consider them false solutions, not to mention that in both cases 90% of the linguistic diversity of the peninsula would still be endangered.
Last edited by IpseDixit on 2014-04-01, 15:24, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Levike
Posts: 6153
Joined: 2013-04-22, 19:26
Real Name: Levi
Gender: male
Location: Budapest
Country: HU Hungary (Magyarország)

Re: Random language thread 2

Postby Levike » 2014-04-01, 12:46

And that's why standard Italian will gain ground. :mrgreen:
Nem egy nap alatt épült Buda vára.


Return to “Italian (Italiano)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest