Da dove viene / chi ha inventato la pronuncia standard?

IpseDixit

Da dove viene / chi ha inventato la pronuncia standard?

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-01-05, 1:38

Ok, noi tutti sappiamo che l'italiano viene principalmente dal vernacolo fiorentino ma allo stesso tempo ci sono diversi fonemi del fiorentino che sono stati esclusi dall' "italiano standard".
Ecco i principali:

- la famosissima c ( /k/ ) che diventa aspirata ( [h] o [x] )
- la g (/ʤ/ ) che diventa una j francese ( [ʒ] )
- la /t/ che diventa l'interdentale [θ]
- la /p/che diventa [ɸ]
- e il passaggio da /ʧ/ (c morbida) a [ʃ] (sc).

(Tutti questi cambiamenti avvengono quando la lettera in questione è intervocalica)

Solo per curiosità, qualcuno mi può spiegare come mai?
Last edited by IpseDixit on 2014-01-05, 1:51, edited 1 time in total.

PiotrR
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Re: Da dove viene / chi ha inventato la pronuncia standard?

Postby PiotrR » 2014-01-05, 1:46

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNO
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IpseDixit

Re: Da dove viene / chi ha inventato la pronuncia standard?

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-01-05, 1:49

PiotrR wrote:I don't want to be picky mate, but symbols on the right should be in square brackets: [h] [x] [ʒ] [θ] [ɸ] [ʃ], since you're talking about regional realizations of /k/ /ʤ/ /t/ /p/ /ʧ/, rather than phonemes distinct from them.


Ok thanks, I'm still a newbie with IPA :) I'll change them.

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Re: Da dove viene / chi ha inventato la pronuncia standard?

Postby linguoboy » 2014-01-05, 2:18

IpseDixit wrote:Solo per curiosità, qualcuno mi può spiegare come mai?

The first question I would ask is: How old is the standard and how far back can we trace those allophonic realisations? The gorgia toscana could be quite recent, and you wouldn't expect it to be reflected in a standard whose roots go back much further.

The second question is: Who were the first speakers of the standard and what were their models? In Germany, a lot of oddities of pronunciation can be explained by the fact that the standard language is a High German dialect but that its first daily speakers were actually native Low Germans who learned it as a foreign language from Luther's Bible translation. That's how spelling pronunciations like /ˈeːfɔi/ eventually replaced /ˈeːphɔi/ (formerly spelled Epheu) even among Southerners.

Standard Italian seems to have undergone a similar evolution: as a written language that was originally propagated on the strength of prestigious literary texts (most notably the Divina Commedia) and then learned by Northerners as, essentially, a foreign language. Intervocalic spirantisation wasn't written down because it was entirely predictable to those speakers who had it, so there would've been no real reason for Padanians going by what they saw on the page to adopt it.
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IpseDixit

Re: Da dove viene / chi ha inventato la pronuncia standard?

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-01-05, 2:53

linguoboy wrote:The first question I would ask is: How old is the standard and how far back can we trace those allophonic realisations? The gorgia toscana could be quite recent, and you wouldn't expect it to be reflected in a standard whose roots go back much further.


AFAIK Tuscan gorgia is not a very recent phenomenon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuscan_gorgia#History

linguoboy wrote:The second question is: Who were the first speakers of the standard and what were their models? In Germany, a lot of oddities of pronunciation can be explained by the fact that the standard language is a High German dialect but that its first daily speakers were actually native Low Germans who learned it as a foreign language from Luther's Bible translation. That's how spelling pronunciations like /ˈeːfɔi/ eventually replaced /ˈeːphɔi/ (formerly spelled Epheu) even among Southerners.

Standard Italian seems to have undergone a similar evolution: as a written language that was originally propagated on the strength of prestigious literary texts (most notably the Divina Commedia) and then learned by Northerners as, essentially, a foreign language. Intervocalic spirantisation wasn't written down because it was entirely predictable to those speakers who had it, so there would've been no real reason for Padanians going by what they saw on the page to adopt it.


So you're suggesting that another place somewhere in Northern Italy could have given birth to the standard pronunciation of Italian?

It could make sense but I have two doubts:

- I think the first people who sopke the language were actually the Tuscans (or at least a part of them).
- There are features of the Northern Italian pronunciations that aren't found in standard Italian.

Padanians


Sorry and I mean no offence, but this term refers only to the inhabitants of the Padan Plain which doesn't cover all of Northern Italy. Not to mention that nowadays it has a highly politically charged meaning that can make many people cringe and it would be better not to use it altogether.

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Re: Da dove viene / chi ha inventato la pronuncia standard?

Postby PiotrR » 2014-01-05, 3:03

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNO
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IpseDixit

Re: Da dove viene / chi ha inventato la pronuncia standard?

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-01-05, 3:29

PiotrR wrote:
IpseDixit wrote:- There are features of the Northern Italian pronunciations that aren't found in standard Italian.

I know about mixing up tense /e o/ with lax /ɛ ɔ/ (found also in the south), incorrect pronunciation of germinated consonants and uvular /r/ [ʁ]. Is there anything else?


It really depends on the places.

A very common thing is pronouncing /s/ as [ʃ] when it's at the beginning of the word, and /s/ is always the voiced [z] when intervocalic.
Then, for intance, Venetians not always pronounce the double consonants and would pronounce /tʃ/ as [s] when intervocalic and /r/ as [ɽ].
Emilians and inhabitants of Romagna pronounce /ts/ as [s:].
Certain dialects have the umlaut.

And probably many other things that aren't coming to my mind.

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Re: Da dove viene / chi ha inventato la pronuncia standard?

Postby PiotrR » 2014-01-05, 3:37

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNO
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IpseDixit

Re: Da dove viene / chi ha inventato la pronuncia standard?

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-01-05, 3:42

They are :)

I'm having some doubts about the /s/ ---> [ʃ] thing. I know it happens but I'm not really sure when...

uvular /r/ [ʁ]


Not so common though.
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Re: Da dove viene / chi ha inventato la pronuncia standard?

Postby PiotrR » 2014-01-05, 3:56

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNO
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IpseDixit

Re: Da dove viene / chi ha inventato la pronuncia standard?

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-01-05, 4:02

Yeah, that's probably what I meant, in fact it is not exactly [ʃ] but that was the closest symbol I knew :)

[ʃ] instead of /s/ is pronounced by Neapolitans and other inhabitants of Campania when S is followed by another consonant.

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Re: Da dove viene / chi ha inventato la pronuncia standard?

Postby linguoboy » 2014-01-05, 6:20

IpseDixit wrote:So you're suggesting that another place somewhere in Northern Italy could have given birth to the standard pronunciation of Italian?

It could make sense but I have two doubts:

- I think the first people who sopke the language were actually the Tuscans (or at least a part of them).
- There are features of the Northern Italian pronunciations that aren't found in standard Italian.

Perhaps then the first use of the standard (as opposed to the Tuscan varieties upon which it was based) was between Tuscans and people from nearby provinces. Most standard languages go through a process of koineïsation whereby similar but not identical varieties are merged to form a new variety which differs noticeably from all of them. When this takes place, it favours the retention of conservative features and disfavours progressive ones, particularly those confined to a single variety.

The gorgia toscana isn't even universal within Tuscany, so speakers with this feature have probably always been somewhat conscious of speaking differently from other Italians. Moreover, they probably realised that using these sounds led to some communication difficulties with people from elsewhere and thus may have made a conscious effort to speak differently when talking to them. That would've prevented this progressive feature from being incorporated into the standard pronunciation.

IpseDixit wrote:Sorry and I mean no offence, but this term refers only to the inhabitants of the Padan Plain which doesn't cover all of Northern Italy. Not to mention that nowadays it has a highly politically charged meaning that can make many people cringe and it would be better not to use it altogether.

Duly noted. Sorry for any offence.
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IpseDixit

Re: Da dove viene / chi ha inventato la pronuncia standard?

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-01-05, 12:38

Perhaps then the first use of the standard (as opposed to the Tuscan varieties upon which it was based) was between Tuscans and people from nearby provinces. Most standard languages go through a process of koineïsation whereby similar but not identical varieties are merged to form a new variety which differs noticeably from all of them. When this takes place, it favours the retention of conservative features and disfavours progressive ones, particularly those confined to a single variety.

The gorgia toscana isn't even universal within Tuscany, so speakers with this feature have probably always been somewhat conscious of speaking differently from other Italians. Moreover, they probably realised that using these sounds led to some communication difficulties with people from elsewhere and thus may have made a conscious effort to speak differently when talking to them. That would've prevented this progressive feature from being incorporated into the standard pronunciation.


That could be a feasible hypothesis but I wish I had more precise info on the development of the standard pronunciation. :|

Btw, sorry for my ignorance but what are progressive features?

Duly noted. Sorry for any offence.


Don't worry.

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Re: Da dove viene / chi ha inventato la pronuncia standard?

Postby Itikar » 2014-01-05, 15:57

I think the answer was known only by those who decided how the traditional pronunciation had to be several centuries ago.

Probably cultivated Florentines of that time perceived the gorgia as an informal way of speaking and so they decided it had not to be used when speaking the literary language. But that is just an hypothesis and cannot be anything more.

Traditional pronunciation has to be taken 'as it is' because it has been handed down through centuries in that way, so even if it sounds weird to Tuscans, Northerns or whomever else, it does not matter.

Even if it says that gónna is to be preferred over gònna. That's life. :mrgreen:

On the other hand Modern Standard, which is still nothing more than a proposal based on Roman Mediatic pronunciation (which has some minor Northern features concerning the pronunciation of intervocalic s's and initial z's which tend to be generally voiced), obviously has not the gorgia because Romans do not have it, or, more pragmatically, because users of this pronunciations did not use it.

A good article about the topic: http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/pro ... aliano%29/

linguoboy wrote:Duly noted. Sorry for any offence.

Thank you also on my behalf. :)
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Re: Da dove viene / chi ha inventato la pronuncia standard?

Postby linguoboy » 2014-01-05, 16:13

IpseDixit wrote:Btw, sorry for my ignorance but what are progressive features?

Innovations. Contrasted with conservative features, which are retentions from earlier forms of the language. Sometimes the same innovation takes place in multiple dialects in which case it's a likely candidate for inclusion in a koiné. But if it's limited to one or two, it will be excluded. The de facto standard here, General American, has been described as "American English shorn of all marked regional characteristics".

Of course, what is "marked" changes over time. [ʍ] used to be considered normative in the US; now it's all but absent even from educated speech. So I can't agree with Itikar when he says "traditional pronunciation has to be taken 'as it is' because it has been handed down through centuries in that way". Some features have definitely been conserved for centuries, but others must be of more recent vintage.
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Re: Da dove viene / chi ha inventato la pronuncia standard?

Postby Massimiliano B » 2014-01-05, 16:22

"Lingua toscana in bocca romana": questo detto credo che spieghi al meglio quali siano le vicissitudini che hanno portato alla formazione della pronuncia standard. In breve, i romani colti studiavano il fiorentino scritto e cercavano di imitarlo, perciò le occlusive sorde venivano pronunciate così come erano scritte. La pronuncia sonora della s intervocalica non è un fenomeno estraneo alla parlata romana - anzi, il romano si caratterizza proprio per la pronuncia sonora delle consonanti sorde intervocaliche - eccetto le doppie. Al mio orecchio, quando un romano dice, per esempio, "noto", io capisco "nodo", e quando dice "la sera" il capisco /la'zera/, "la casa" diventa /la'gaza/ ecc. La pronuncia sonora della s intervocalica ha poi trovato d'accordo romani e italiani settentrionali.
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Re: Da dove viene / chi ha inventato la pronuncia standard?

Postby Itikar » 2014-01-05, 17:10

linguoboy wrote:So I can't agree with Itikar when he says "traditional pronunciation has to be taken 'as it is' because it has been handed down through centuries in that way". Some features have definitely been conserved for centuries, but others must be of more recent vintage.

You do not have to agree with me, since I have simply written down what is the common attitude.
I have never found anything more radical being accepted as a change in traditional pronunciation than a simple switch like gònna being accepted as a legitimate variation of gónna.
If something more relevant changes it simply will not be anymore the "traditional pronunciation" but something else as a "new modern standard" and so on.

It is not my opinion or anything else, you can check that this is reality opening most Italian dictionaries.
Personally, anyway, I find it quite logical that nobody is interested in forcing a change in a literary pronunciation used by... practically nobody. What would be the purpouse of such an endeavour?
They propose a new standard and when this is accepted, then we can be fine with it.
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Re: Da dove viene / chi ha inventato la pronuncia standard?

Postby Koko » 2014-01-08, 7:32

I thought Dante was the "Father" of Standard Italian, as lingoboy said- in the Divina Comedia(I'm glad to be reading L'Inferno Di Dante) he used a jumbled up(pardon my expressions if not that accurate) language of the dialects, not necessarily mostly Tuscan, but Florentian?- the dialect from which city he was born in(Florence if you couldn't guess).

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Re: Da dove viene / chi ha inventato la pronuncia standard?

Postby Koko » 2014-01-08, 7:40

A language of which he invented for poetic use other than Latin. I find it hard to believe those above realizations would've occured. Then again, I am only learning the language alone, not the history and with very little help and no information on the regional pronunciations.

IpseDixit

Re: Da dove viene / chi ha inventato la pronuncia standard?

Postby IpseDixit » 2014-01-08, 13:06

not necessarily mostly Tuscan, but Florentian?- the dialect from which city he was born in(Florence if you couldn't guess).


The Florentine dialect is a form of Tuscan.


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