PiotrR wrote:I don't want to be picky mate, but symbols on the right should be in square brackets: [h] [x] [ʒ] [θ] [ɸ] [ʃ], since you're talking about regional realizations of /k/ /ʤ/ /t/ /p/ /ʧ/, rather than phonemes distinct from them.
IpseDixit wrote:Solo per curiosità, qualcuno mi può spiegare come mai?
linguoboy wrote:The first question I would ask is: How old is the standard and how far back can we trace those allophonic realisations? The gorgia toscana could be quite recent, and you wouldn't expect it to be reflected in a standard whose roots go back much further.
linguoboy wrote:The second question is: Who were the first speakers of the standard and what were their models? In Germany, a lot of oddities of pronunciation can be explained by the fact that the standard language is a High German dialect but that its first daily speakers were actually native Low Germans who learned it as a foreign language from Luther's Bible translation. That's how spelling pronunciations like /ˈeːfɔi/ eventually replaced /ˈeːphɔi/ (formerly spelled Epheu) even among Southerners.
Standard Italian seems to have undergone a similar evolution: as a written language that was originally propagated on the strength of prestigious literary texts (most notably the Divina Commedia) and then learned by Northerners as, essentially, a foreign language. Intervocalic spirantisation wasn't written down because it was entirely predictable to those speakers who had it, so there would've been no real reason for Padanians going by what they saw on the page to adopt it.
PiotrR wrote:IpseDixit wrote:- There are features of the Northern Italian pronunciations that aren't found in standard Italian.
I know about mixing up tense /e o/ with lax /ɛ ɔ/ (found also in the south), incorrect pronunciation of germinated consonants and uvular /r/ [ʁ]. Is there anything else?
uvular /r/ [ʁ]
IpseDixit wrote:So you're suggesting that another place somewhere in Northern Italy could have given birth to the standard pronunciation of Italian?
It could make sense but I have two doubts:
- I think the first people who sopke the language were actually the Tuscans (or at least a part of them).
- There are features of the Northern Italian pronunciations that aren't found in standard Italian.
IpseDixit wrote:Sorry and I mean no offence, but this term refers only to the inhabitants of the Padan Plain which doesn't cover all of Northern Italy. Not to mention that nowadays it has a highly politically charged meaning that can make many people cringe and it would be better not to use it altogether.
Perhaps then the first use of the standard (as opposed to the Tuscan varieties upon which it was based) was between Tuscans and people from nearby provinces. Most standard languages go through a process of koineïsation whereby similar but not identical varieties are merged to form a new variety which differs noticeably from all of them. When this takes place, it favours the retention of conservative features and disfavours progressive ones, particularly those confined to a single variety.
The gorgia toscana isn't even universal within Tuscany, so speakers with this feature have probably always been somewhat conscious of speaking differently from other Italians. Moreover, they probably realised that using these sounds led to some communication difficulties with people from elsewhere and thus may have made a conscious effort to speak differently when talking to them. That would've prevented this progressive feature from being incorporated into the standard pronunciation.
Duly noted. Sorry for any offence.
linguoboy wrote:Duly noted. Sorry for any offence.
IpseDixit wrote:Btw, sorry for my ignorance but what are progressive features?
linguoboy wrote:So I can't agree with Itikar when he says "traditional pronunciation has to be taken 'as it is' because it has been handed down through centuries in that way". Some features have definitely been conserved for centuries, but others must be of more recent vintage.
not necessarily mostly Tuscan, but Florentian?- the dialect from which city he was born in(Florence if you couldn't guess).
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