Pronouns to the right

cataphor
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Pronouns to the right

Postby cataphor » 2013-08-08, 14:43

Dear native speakers of Italian,

I'm doing some research on a structure which is pretty common in the world's languages, and it looks like the example in (1) to (6) which is from some dialect of English. If you know French, you'll probably recognize them in sentences like "Elle est malade, elle.":

(1) [Talking about some sort of potatoes] They cook fast, them.
(2) She's a liar, her.
(3) I payed him, me.
(4) That's great, that!
(5) We met Lisa at the train station, her.
(6) Mary talked to Peter last saturday night, to him.

What I'd like to know is whether your language allows for a similiar construction. That is, do you - in colloquial conversation - place pronouns in the end of the sentence that correlate to some referent in the preceding clause? If so, I would be pleased if you could give an example. They don't need to fit the examples above regarding the content.

I would also like to know what form the pronoun takes. So, in (1) to (5), the pronouns at the end are all in accusative or "tonic" form. Moreover, if you change the role of the correlating element, e.g. make it an object, does the case of the pronoun change? The relevant examples would be (5), where the correlate is a direct object, and (6), where it is an indirect object.

Connected to this, how would the answers to the question in (7), (8), and (9) look like?

(7) Who wants some ice cream? --
(a) Me!
(b) Her!
(c) Him!
(d) Us!
(e) Them!

(8) Who did Mary see at the train station? --
(a) Me!
(b) Her!
(c) Him!
(d) Us!
(e) Them!

(9) Who did Peter give the money to? --
(a) To me!
(b) To her!
(c) To him!
(d) To us!
(e) To them!


I would be very happy if you could help me out with that. If you like, I could also acknowledge your contribution by naming you in the paper. For further questions, feel free to ask. You can also contact me under andrea06@uni-potsdam.de. Below, you can find a template for the answers since, I guess, it would be annoying to number them yourself.

Best regards,
Andreas Schmidt

(7)
(a)
(b)
(c)
(d)
(e)

(8)
(a)
(b)
(c)
(d)
(e)

(9)
(a)
(b)
(c)
(d)
(e)

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Massimiliano B
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Re: Pronouns to the right

Postby Massimiliano B » 2013-08-11, 23:14

cataphor wrote:Dear native speakers of Italian,

I'm doing some research on a structure which is pretty common in the world's languages, and it looks like the example in (1) to (6) which is from some dialect of English. If you know French, you'll probably recognize them in sentences like "Elle est malade, elle.":

(1) [Talking about some sort of potatoes] They cook fast, them.
(2) She's a liar, her.
(3) I payed him, me.
(4) That's great, that!
(5) We met Lisa at the train station, her.
(6) Mary talked to Peter last saturday night, to him.

What I'd like to know is whether your language allows for a similiar construction. That is, do you - in colloquial conversation - place pronouns in the end of the sentence that correlate to some referent in the preceding clause? If so, I would be pleased if you could give an example. They don't need to fit the examples above regarding the content.

I would also like to know what form the pronoun takes. So, in (1) to (5), the pronouns at the end are all in accusative or "tonic" form. Moreover, if you change the role of the correlating element, e.g. make it an object, does the case of the pronoun change? The relevant examples would be (5), where the correlate is a direct object, and (6), where it is an indirect object.


Italian is a pro-drop language, so you can find sentences like

«Sono un bugiardo, io» (literal translation: «Am a liar, I»).

In this sentence, the last word is a masculine personal pronoun, in the nominative form. We can not say that it correlates to the subject of the verb «sono» (= am), because this is understood, and especially because the pronouns at the end of the sentence is in the nominative form.
The position of the subject at the end of the sentence indicates that the subject is the topic, while the rest of the sentence is the rhema (comment).


If I want to use the subject before the verb, then I can say:

Io sono un bugiardo (I am a liar)

but in this case you don't add a pronoun at the end of the sentence.





cataphor wrote:
Connected to this, how would the answers to the question in (7), (8), and (9) look like?

(7) Who wants some ice cream? --
(a) Me!
(b) Her!
(c) Him!
(d) Us!
(e) Them!

(8) Who did Mary see at the train station? --
(a) Me!
(b) Her!
(c) Him!
(d) Us!
(e) Them!

(9) Who did Peter give the money to? --
(a) To me!
(b) To her!
(c) To him!
(d) To us!
(e) To them!


I would be very happy if you could help me out with that. If you like, I could also acknowledge your contribution by naming you in the paper. For further questions, feel free to ask. You can also contact me under andrea06@uni-potsdam.de. Below, you can find a template for the answers since, I guess, it would be annoying to number them yourself.

Best regards,
Andreas Schmidt


(7)
(a) Io! (I)
(b) Lei! (she)
(c) Lui! (he)
(d) Noi! (we)
(e) Loro! (they)

All the personal pronouns are in their nominative case. In fact, the first one (io) has a different form for the accusative (me). The other pronouns are thus in the nominative forms, even though their accusative form don't differ from the nominative.

In standard Italian "lui", "lei", and "loro" have a different nominative form (egli, ella, essi/esse) but now none use them when speaking.


(8)
(a) Me! (me)
(b) Lei! (her)
(c) Lui! (him)
(d) Noi! (us)
(e) Loro! (them)

Here, the pronouns are in the accusative and tonic form. Their non-tonic form is «mi, la, lo, ci, li».


(9)
(a) A me! (to me)
(b) A lei!
(c) A lui!
(d) A noi!
(e) A loro!

Here, the pronouns are in the prepositional (or indirect) form - which corresponds to the accusative and tonic form - preceded by the preposition «a» (= to). Ther non-tonic form is «mi, le, gli ci, li/loro» - without the preposition «a», because these forms are in themselves dative.

cataphor
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Joined: 2013-03-06, 9:48
Real Name: Andreas
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Re: Pronouns to the right

Postby cataphor » 2013-08-12, 14:49

Thank you for your explicit anwer! Do you think the sentence Sono un bugiardo, io is restricted to certain dialects or would any speaker of Italian use such a sentence in collquial speech? I'm asking since Cheung (2005) said that the construction in (1) would not be possible:

(1) *Gianni é venuto, lui

As far as I understand you, the problem might be that you use a null pronoun when the referent is a topic, and the right dislocation requires the referent to be the topic, which prevents the referent from being overt with a right-periphal pronoun?

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Massimiliano B
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Re: Pronouns to the right

Postby Massimiliano B » 2013-08-12, 18:15

The sentence Sono un bugiardo, io can be used by any speaker of Italian and not only in the colloquial speech. It indicates that the speakers already know who are they talking about, and that the new information is the fact that the subject is a liar. This is what I think.

The sentence 1) is not possible. Cheung is right. I think that it depends on what I've said in the first post: since in 1) the subject is already at its normal place in the sentence - that is, it is right before the verb - you cannot use a pronoun at the end of the sentence, because the subject cannot be at the same time a topic and a non-topic! So, both this sentence Gianni è venuto, and this è venuto, Gianni are correct, but not the sentence 1).

Yes, you use a null pronoun when the referent is a topic.That's why you cannot say Gianni è venuto, lui.
I don't understand the word periphal. Do you mean peripheral?

cataphor
Posts: 53
Joined: 2013-03-06, 9:48
Real Name: Andreas
Gender: male
Country: DE Germany (Deutschland)

Re: Pronouns to the right

Postby cataphor » 2013-08-14, 6:58

Yes, I meant peripheral, that was typo. Thanks for your judgements!


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