Estonian conjugations

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Loiks
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Postby Loiks » 2005-10-10, 16:21

eurooplane wrote:Kas võidakse kasutada « pole » verbi eitava vormiks ?
Näiteks, « Ta pole elanud » ?

Is it possible to use the word « pole » for the negative form ?
For example, « Ta pole elanud » instead of « Ta ei ole elanud ».

Alex.


Just selleks teda kasutataksegi. Pole on tegelikult kokku liitunud ep ole, kunagi nimelt on eitussõna ka eesti keeles pööratud nagu soome keeles siiani. Niisiis - pole = ei ole.

That's what it is used for. Pole is actually ep ole united to one word, the negation verb has some time ago been conjugated in Estonian also as it is done in Finnish until now. So - pole = ei ole.

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Postby eurooplane » 2005-10-10, 18:55

Thus, I suppose that people could say too:

ISIKULINE TEGUMOOD

KINDEL KÕNEVIIS

(…)

TÄISMINEVIK

pole elanud

ENNEMINEVIK

polnud elanud


(…)


TINGIV KÕNEVIIS

(…)

TÄISMINEVIK

poleks elanud

ENNEMINEVIK

polnuks elanud



KAUDNE KÕNEVIIS

(…)

TÄISMINEVIK

polevat elanud

ENNEMINEVIK

polnuvat elanud



UMBISIKULINE TEGUMOOD

KINDEL KÕNEVIIS

(…)

TÄISMINEVIK

polda elatud

ENNEMINEVIK

poldud elatud


(…)


TINGIV KÕNEVIIS

(…)

MINEVIK

poldaks elatud



KAUDNE KÕNEVIIS

(…)

MINEVIK

poldavat elatud


Just selleks teda kasutataksegi. Pole on tegelikult kokku liitunud ep ole, kunagi nimelt on eitussõna ka eesti keeles pööratud nagu soome keeles siiani. Niisiis - pole = ei ole.

That's what it is used for. Pole is actually ep ole united to one word, the negation verb has some time ago been conjugated in Estonian also as it is done in Finnish until now. So - pole = ei ole.
Interesting...
I try to enter “ep ole” on google, and I found a text, with “ep ole”, but with the letter ‘w’ too.
I guess it’s a dialect, isn’t t?

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Postby Loiks » 2005-10-11, 15:55

eurooplane wrote:Thus, I suppose that people could say too:

ISIKULINE TEGUMOOD

KINDEL KÕNEVIIS

(…)

TÄISMINEVIK

pole elanud

ENNEMINEVIK

polnud elanud


(…)


TINGIV KÕNEVIIS

(…)

TÄISMINEVIK

poleks elanud

ENNEMINEVIK

polnuks elanud



KAUDNE KÕNEVIIS

(…)

TÄISMINEVIK

polevat elanud

ENNEMINEVIK

polnuvat elanud



UMBISIKULINE TEGUMOOD

KINDEL KÕNEVIIS

(…)

TÄISMINEVIK

polda elatud

ENNEMINEVIK

poldud elatud


(…)


TINGIV KÕNEVIIS

(…)

MINEVIK

poldaks elatud



KAUDNE KÕNEVIIS

(…)

MINEVIK

poldavat elatud


Interesting...
I try to enter “ep ole” on google, and I found a text, with “ep ole”, but with the letter ‘w’ too.
I guess it’s a dialect, isn’t t?


All those forms are correct. What text that is you are talking about? All v-letters were written as w until 1920's.

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Postby eurooplane » 2005-10-11, 17:17

Looking for “ep ole”, I found this

“Et siin nimetatud wana Ilumäe kabel, mis oli ärahukatud, wana Wiitna kabel ep ole, millest meile 1690. aastal weel selgeste teada on, et ta kahe järwede wahel, suure Narwa tee ääres olnud, ja seda kaks korda taheti uueste ülesehitada ja temast ise kirikut oma õpetajaga teha, ilma et sellest nõuust midagi oleks saanud, wõime minu arwates selgeste sellest äratunda, et 1729. aastal, mil Ilumäe kabeli hakati ehitama, wana kabeli koha järele kuulati, ilma et keegi seda oleks wõinud nimetada.”
(…)
“Sesinnane paik on pühha! Jummalale ja temma Poiale, Jesusse Kristussele olgo ja jägo se kodda pühhitsetud; siin sago semet külwatud iggawesseks eluks! Siin pühha Waim õppetago, walgustago, pühhitsego, trööstigo ja römustago usklikkude hinged!”

It didn’t look like modern Estonian.
-go endings; pühha…

from http://www.eelk.ee/h_ilumae.html

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Postby Loiks » 2005-10-13, 16:54

eurooplane wrote:Looking for “ep ole”, I found this

“Et siin nimetatud wana Ilumäe kabel, mis oli ärahukatud, wana Wiitna kabel ep ole, millest meile 1690. aastal weel selgeste teada on, et ta kahe järwede wahel, suure Narwa tee ääres olnud, ja seda kaks korda taheti uueste ülesehitada ja temast ise kirikut oma õpetajaga teha, ilma et sellest nõuust midagi oleks saanud, wõime minu arwates selgeste sellest äratunda, et 1729. aastal, mil Ilumäe kabeli hakati ehitama, wana kabeli koha järele kuulati, ilma et keegi seda oleks wõinud nimetada.”
(…)
“Sesinnane paik on pühha! Jummalale ja temma Poiale, Jesusse Kristussele olgo ja jägo se kodda pühhitsetud; siin sago semet külwatud iggawesseks eluks! Siin pühha Waim õppetago, walgustago, pühhitsego, trööstigo ja römustago usklikkude hinged!”

It didn’t look like modern Estonian.
-go endings; pühha…

from http://www.eelk.ee/h_ilumae.html


Hi!

You can see the datings after the texts in order to locate those old Estonian samples in time. They are about the history of Ilumäe chapel.

By the way, the second text here is in old, German based ortography. It had different rules than the modern, Finnish based one. The old ortography was developed at the end of 17th century by Forselius and Hornung and was used until the 3rd quarter of 19th century.
The rules of old ortography: the long vowel of stressed open syllable was written with one letter (Jesusse, jägo - in new ortography: Jeesuse, jäägu). In a closed syllable the long vowel was written with two letters (siin, trööstigo - now: siin, trööstigu). When the vowel of open syllable had to be pronounced short it was marked by doubling the following consonant (pühha, Jummal - now: püha, Jumal). And there was no letter for õ until O. W. Masing 'founded' it. The problem is that there was no possibility to distinguish short and long consonants:
killo and killo are now written kilu and killu (gen. of kild).

Some family names have preserved the old ortography until now.

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Postby eurooplane » 2005-10-19, 20:48

Tere!

Kas see reform puutus ka teiste murrete ? Kui võros ?
Ja kas eitav vorm on pööranud võro keeles ?

Did this reform concerned other dialects too ? For example in Võro ?
Is the negative form conjugated in Võro ?

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Postby Loiks » 2005-10-20, 19:35

eurooplane wrote:Tere!

Kas see reform puutus ka teiste murrete ? Kui võros ?
Ja kas eitav vorm on pööranud võro keeles ?

Did this reform concerned other dialects too ? For example in Võro ?
Is the negative form conjugated in Võro ?


Kas see reform puutus ka teistesse murretesse or Kas see reform puudutas ka teisi murdeid? Nagu näiteks võru?

Ja kas eitavat vormi pööratakse võro keeles (impersonal present tense!)?


Kui sa mõtled kirjaviisi reformi, siis me räägime kirjakeelest, murretel puudub või vähemalt vanasti puudus kindel kirjaviis, nii ei saanud ka midagi reformida.

Minu teada võro keeles eitussõna ei pöörata. Küll aga on olemas mineviku vorm: es, sealjuures põhiverb säilitab oleviku kuju. Veel üks erinevus võrreldes eesti kirjakeelega on see, et eitussõna asub verbi taga. Nt: olõ-õi (assimilatsioon õ-ga) - ei ole, olõ-õs - ei olnud; tee-ei - ei tee, tee-es - ei teinud.
Eesti keele mõjul on tekkinud ka igasuguseid segavariante. Mind ei maksa ka 100% uskuda, sest ma ei räägi võro keelt. Keegi pole sellest keelest kaugemal kui sünnipärane tallinlane :).

If you mean the ortography reform, then we are speaking about written language, the dialects lack or at least lacked in old times fixed ortography, so nothing could be reformed.

To my knowledge the negation word is not conjugated in Võro. However there is a form for past: es, whereby the main verb preserves the shape of present tense. Another difference with written Estonian is that the negation word is situated after the verb. Examples: olõ-õi (assimilation with õ) - is not, olõ-õs - was not; tee-ei - does not, tee-es - did not.
As a result of the Estonian influence there are several mixed variants also. I'm not to be believed 100% because I don't speak Võro. Nobody is as far from this language as a native Tallinner :).

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Postby eurooplane » 2005-10-21, 15:22

Loiks wrote:Kas see reform puutus ka teistesse murretesse or Kas see reform puudutas ka teisi murdeid?
Kui ma võtan kokku, see on:
puutuma + ill. = puudutama + part.
Kas see on õige üldistada seda (kui tähendus jääb sama)?
Kas ‘x-ma + ill.’ võidakse asendada ‘x-y-ma + part.’ ?

If I sum up, there is:
puutuma + ill. = puudutama + part.
Is it correct to generalize it(if the meaning is the same) ?
‘x-ma + ill.’ could be change with ‘x-y-ma + part.’ ?

Nagu näiteks võru
Which declension is it ? I cannot find… :?

Loiks wrote:Keegi pole sellest keelest kaugemal kui sünnipärane tallinlane :).
:) Really?

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Postby Loiks » 2005-10-22, 17:39

Kui ma võtan kokku, see on:
puutuma + ill. = puudutama + part.
Kas [s]see[/s] (inglise keele mõju - English influence, arvasin, et prantslastele see ka ei meeldi; thought that the Frenchmen don't like that either :)) on õige üldistada seda (kui tähendus jääb samaks)?
Kas ‘x-ma + ill.’ võidakse asendada ‘x-y-ma + part.’ ?

If I sum up, there is:
puutuma + ill. = puudutama + part.
Is it correct to generalize it(if the meaning is the same) ?
‘x-ma + ill.’ could be change with ‘x-y-ma + part.’ ?

Jah, täpselt nii ongi. Need on väljendid.
Yes, that's exactly what it is. These are expressions.

'võro' is in nominative.

Loiks wrote:Keegi pole sellest keelest kaugemal kui sünnipärane tallinlane :).
:) Really?

I referred to the arrogance of 'city' people :).

Sorry, I had some problems with quoting, hope you don't mind.

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Postby eurooplane » 2005-10-29, 12:05

puutu/ma > t →d (puudu-) + -ta- > puudu/ta/ma

I guess it is related to these particules :
Arvan, et seda on seostanud nende partiklite :

1. a) kausatiivi- ja faktitiiviliited -ta-, -da-, -sta-, -nda-, -lda-, -t-
b) refleksiiviliited -u-, -bu-, -bi-
2. a) translatiiviliited -ne-
b) kontinuatiiviliited -tse-, -ise-
c) momentaaniliited -ata- (-ahta-)
d) frekventatiiviliited -le-, -dle-, -tle- (-tele-), -skle- (-skele-), -i-, -ki-, -gi-, -ku-, -gu-, -u-

What are the meanings of these grammar terms ?
Mis on nende sõnade tähenduste ?

Aitäh ! :wink:

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Postby Loiks » 2005-10-29, 19:00

eurooplane wrote:puutu/ma > t →d (puudu-) + -ta- > puudu/ta/ma

I guess it is related to these particules :
Ma arvan, et see on seotud nende partiklitega : (And in common spoken Estonian you have to use personal pronouns, otherwise you sound too bookish :)).



Do you mean gradation? If so, then it is related to the loss of vowels and even syllables at the end of words (see Finnish and some other Finnic languages, the words have some extra vowels compared to EE). They had to maintain the original 'power', so if in Finnish you say: taloon (*talohon) then in Estonian: tallu (ülipikk [l], is it superlong in English?). There are some certain conditions when the gradation has appeared. And Estonian has the most of it! :) All this because of the loss of vowels inside or at the end of words. I have to do some research to explain it properly, then I'll give you some examples too.

Oh, and there are also particles that gradate: imelik : imeliku : imelikku. (gen. pl. imelike or imelikkude)

But now I'm really looking forward to further questions. :)

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Postby eurooplane » 2005-10-30, 8:31

I’m very interested in gradation, but I didn’t mean this. :)

Sometimes, there are verbs into which comes a particle :

puutuma : -ta- => puudutama
muretsema : -da- => muretsedama
hoolima : -tse- => hoolitsema
armuma : -sta- => armastama
koguma : -ne- =< kogunema
teretama : -vi- => tervitama
jätma : -ka- => jätkama


How does these particles change the meaning of the word ?
The käsiraamat give the particles: http://www.eki.ee/books/ekkr/sm9.html , unfortunately I don’t understand enough.
In some cases, it’s a way to change a noun/adjective/adverb into a verb, but on the other hand, it could be inserted in a verb. I suppose it changes the meaning of the verb, no ? What are the differences between muretsema and muretsedama, for instance ?
How would you translate kausatiiviliited, faktitiiviliited etc. and simply, what is it ?
kausatiiviliited = causual link ? (help !)


As gradation, I would like to know how it works.

I have to do some research to explain it properly, then I'll give you some examples too.


It’s great, thanks ! :)
Does the inversion between vowel/consonnant belong to gradation too ? (Küünal/küünla, tütar/tütre…)

tallu (ülipikk [l], is it superlong in English?).


Yes ! In english it’s « short // geminate or long // superlong or overlong » (and « brèves // longues // surlongues » for me). Btw there is a new classification. It doesn’t describe the lenght of vowels or consonnants, but the syllables (I‘m looking for desesperately the link :cry: ).

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Postby eurooplane » 2005-11-27, 12:21

Interesting link about Setu conjugations:
http://www.verbix.com/languages/setu.shtml
:wink:

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Postby Loiks » 2005-11-27, 12:31

eurooplane wrote:Interesting link about Setu conjugations:
http://www.verbix.com/languages/setu.shtml
:wink:


Seto is the same as Võro, sometimes called Võroseto. I'd compare with Serbs and Croats: Seto are Russian orthodox and Võro are Lutherans. The nation has been divided by cultural border all the time.


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