Estonian conjugations

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Loiks
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Estonian conjugations

Postby Loiks » 2005-09-12, 17:16

PRINCIPAL FORMS OF ESTONIAN VERB

ma-infinitive
da-infinitive
1. person indicative personal
tud-participe

From ma-infinitive you can form: mas-, mast-, maks-, mata-forms; si-~s-~is-imperfect; present quotative, v-participe.

From da-infinitive you can form: des-gerundive, nud-participe (from which perfect conditional and perfect quotative), imperative.

From 1. person you can form: other persons of present, present conditional, 2. person present imperative.

From tud-participe you can form: the forms of impersonal.

Also indicative imperfect personal, nud-participe and present indicative impersonal are shown here.



ESTONIAN CONJUGATIONS

I CONJUGATION

Main type võima

VÕIMA-VÕIDA-VÕIN-VÕISIN-VÕINUD-VÕIDAKSE-VÕIDUD

Subtypes:

A. võima
B. treima (treima-treida-trein-treisin-treinud-treitakse-treitud)
C. saama (saama-saada-saan-sain-saanud-saadakse-saadud)
D. käima (käima-käia-käin-käisin-käinud-käiakse-käidud)
E. tooma (tooma-tuua-toon-tõin-toonud-tuuakse-toodud)



II CONJUGATION

Main type elama

ELAMA-ELADA-ELAN-ELASIN-ELANUD-ELATAKSE-ELATUD

Subtypes:

siblima (siblima-siblida-siblin-siblisin-siblinud-siblitakse-siblitud)

muutuma (muutuma-muutuda-muutun-muutusin-muutunud-muututakse-muututud)

kirjutama (kirjutama-kirjutada-kirjutan-kirjutasin-kirjutanud-kirjutatakse-kirjutatud)

esitlema (esitlema-esitleda-esitlen-esitlesin-esitlenud-esitletakse-esitletud)

näitlikustama (näitlikustama-näitlikustada-näitlikustan-näitlikustasin-näitlikustanud-näitlikustatakse-näitlikustatud)

Main type tegelema

TEGELEMA-TEGELEDA or TEGELDA-TEGELEN-TEGELESIN-TEGELENUD or TEGELNUD-TEGELETAKSE or TEGELDAKSE-TEGELETUD or TEGELDUD

Main type tulema

TULEMA-TULLA-TULEN-TULIN-TULNUD-TULLAKSE-TULDUD

Subtype:

käsitelema (käsitelema-käsitella-käsitelen-käsitelin-käsitelnud-käsitellakse-käsiteldud)



III CONJUGATION

I category

Main type õppima

ÕPPIMA-ÕPPIDA-ÕPIN-ÕPPISIN-ÕPPINUD-ÕPITAKSE-ÕPITUD

Subtypes:

rääkima (rääkima-rääkida-räägin-rääkisin-rääkinud-räägitakse-räägitud)

lugema (lugema-lugeda-loen-lugesin-lugenud-loetakse-loetud)


II category

Main type saatma

SAATMA-SAATA-SAADAN-SAATSIN-SAATNUD-SAADETAKSE-SAADETUD

Main type murdma

MURDMA-MURDA-MURRAN-MURDSIN-MURDNUD-MURTAKSE-MURTUD

Main type seisma

SEISMA-SEISTA-SEISAN-SEISIN-SEISNUD-SEISTAKSE-SEISTUD

Main type laulma

LAULMA-LAULDA-LAULAN-LAULSIN-LAULNUD-LAULDAKSE-LAULDUD




IV CONJUGATION

Main type hakkama

HAKKAMA-HAKATA-HAKKAN-HAKKASIN-HAKANUD-HAKATAKSE-HAKATUD

Subtypes:

aitama (aitama-aidata-aitan-aitasin-aidanud-aidatakse-aidatud)

lendama (lendama-lennata-lendan-lendasin-lennanud-lennatakse-lennatud)

Main type õmblema

ÕMBLEMA-ÕMMELDA-ÕMBLEN-ÕMBLESIN-ÕMMELNUD-ÕMMELDAKSE-ÕMMELDUD

Subtypes:

vestlema (vestlema-vestelda-vestlen-vestlesin-vestelnud-vesteldakse-vesteldud)

vaidlema (vaidlema-vaielda-vaidlen-vaidlesin-vaielnud-vaieldakse-vaieldud)

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Postby stordragon » 2005-09-12, 23:39

Hi Loiks, will you explain some Estonian linguistic terms?

Esp. on the page http://www.filosoft.ee/gene_et/ , what does umbis. mean? I DO know the English term for it is 'impersonal', but what's the usage? What does this word 'impersonal' exactly mean in terms of Estonian grammar? Is that the same sense as impersonnel in French? And as for kaudne('indirect') what does it imply? Is it used when referring to someone else's words or phrases or elsewhere?

As you see, it does not take much effort to find the English translation for every Estonian grammar terms, and so the difficulty does NOT lie in how to translate these grammatical terms into Estonian, BUT in what these English grammatical terms exactly mean.. As you know, some Estonian grammatical terms are NOT so common EVEN when translated into English..The English terms such as gerundive does not seem to be comprehensible to me at all. :oops: (though I have a very small Estonian vocabulary and I 'can' speak a little Estonian now, with the help of a dictionary,since I am quite a bit familiar with the usage of every grammatical cases)

Or will you provide us a brief clarification of these uncommon grammatical terms or make a short glossary list with a view to introducing them?
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Dovddan earenoamážit beroštumi suoma-ugrálaš giellajoavkku dutkamuššii.(davvisámegillii)
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Postby eurooplane » 2005-09-13, 9:47

Hello !

This topic is wellcome. Thanks a lot for your idee! :D



I did before this short sum up of estonian tenses:

indicative :(kindel)
present (olevik)
perfect (lihtminevik)

quotative :(kaudne)
present (olevik)
perfect (lihtminevik)

conditionnal :(tingiv)
present (olevik)
perfect (lihtminevik)

imperative : (käskiv)
present (olevik)

When you say "imperfect", it deals with the same tense as "perfect"?



As concerning gerundive, I suppose it refers to the english ing-forms like « sleeping », « walking »… or french ant-forms like « en dormant », « en marchant »…
magades, käies…

For personal and impersonal(umbes), ma,sa,ta,me,te,nad are personal pronouns. Impersonal means you don’t know which pronoun use. You choose impersonal pronoun (german : man ; french : on)
example : « no smoking ! »=« Man raucht nicht ! »=« On ne fume pas ! »=« Ei suitsetatakse ! »

I don’t know exactly the function of the quotative(kaudne). I think you use it in sentences like « If…, then… », but I need explanations too.

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Postby stordragon » 2005-09-13, 11:37

Hi eurooplane, Thank you for reply!

And I'd thank both of you in advance for further replies to more of my questions.. :D
人生得意须尽欢,莫使金樽空对月。
Hvat krevst fyri at kunnast við aðrar mentanir? Tað er fyrst og fremst teirra mál!(á føroyskum)
Dovddan earenoamážit beroštumi suoma-ugrálaš giellajoavkku dutkamuššii.(davvisámegillii)
Būtina imtis neatidėliotinų priemonių nykstančioms kalboms apsaugoti nuo išnykimo;nes kalbinė įvairovė,mano nuomone,yra ne mažiau svarbi nei biologinė!(lietuviškai)

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Postby Loiks » 2005-09-13, 17:36

Here's my this evening's 'creation'. I thought I'd give the whole paradigm of the word 'elama'. I'm sorry if something is missing or wrong, let me know about that, especially those English translations may not be very best English but I tried to convey the closest possible meaning as well as I could.


ISIKULINE TEGUMOOD e PERSONAAL

KINDEL KÕNEVIIS e INDIKATIIV

OLEVIK e PREESENS

Ainsus e singular:

1. elan (I live)
2. elad (you live)
3. elab (he/she/it lives)

Mitmus e pluural:

1. elame (we live)
2. elate (you live)
3. elavad (they live)

LIHTMINEVIK e IMPERFEKT

Ainsus:

1. elasin (I lived)
2. elasid
3. elas

Mitmus:

1. elasime
2. elasite
3. elasid

TÄISMINEVIK e PERFEKT

Ainsus:

1. olen elanud (I have lived)
2. oled elanud
3. on elanud

Mitmus:

1. oleme elanud
2. olete elanud
3. on elanud

ENNEMINEVIK e PLUSKVAMPERFEKT

Ainsus:

1. olin elanud (I had lived)
2. olid elanud
3. oli elanud

Mitmus:

1. olime elanud
2. olite elanud
3. olid elanud



KÄSKIV KÕNEVIIS e IMPERATIIV

OLEVIK

Ainsus:

1. elagu
2. ela (live!)
3. elagu

Mitmus:

1. elagu
2. elage
3. elagu

(MINEVIK)

Ainsus:

1. olgu elanud
2. ole elanud (be lived!)
3. olgu elanud

Mitmus:

1. olgu elanud
2. olge elanud
3. olgu elanud



TINGIV KÕNEVIIS e KONDITSIONAAL

OLEVIK

Ainsus:

1. elaksin (I would live) (if the conditions were different)
2. elaksid
3. elaks

Mitmus:

1. elaksime
2. elaksite
3. elaksid

LIHTMINEVIK

Ainsus:

1. elanuksin (I would have lived)
2. elanuksid
3. elanuks

Mitmus:

1. elanuksime
2. elanuksite
3. elanuksid

TÄISMINEVIK

Ainsus:

1. oleksin elanud (I would have lived (the last two tenses don’t actually differ by
2. oleksid elanud meaning, in everyday speech täisminevik is used)
3. oleks elanud

Mitmus:

1. oleksime elanud
2. oleksite elanud
3. oleksid elanud

ENNEMINEVIK

Ainsus:

1. olnuksin elanud (I would have had lived)
2. olnuksid elanud
3. olnuks elanud

Mitmus:

1. olnuksime elanud
2. olnuksite elanud
3. olnuksid elanud



KAUDNE KÕNEVIIS e KVOTATIIV

OLEVIK

elavat (’he is told to be living’ I know (not absolutely surely) that
he lives.)
MINEVIK

elanuvat (’he is told to have been living’)

TÄISMINEVIK

olevat elanud (’he is told to have been living’ (see conditional))

ENNEMINEVIK

olnud elanud (’he was told to have been living’)



UMBISIKULINE TEGUMOOD e IMPERSONAAL

KINDEL KÕNEVIIS

OLEVIK

elatakse (’there is being lived’ (no object, we don’t know who lives, but we
surely know that someone lives))
LIHTMINEVIK

elati (’there was being lived’)

TÄISMINEVIK

ollakse elatud (’there has been being lived’)

ENNEMINEVIK

oldi elatud (’there had been being lived’)



KÄSKIV KÕNEVIIS

OLEVIK

elatagu (’everybody live!’)

(MINEVIK)

oldagu elatud (’everybody be lived!’)



TINGIV KÕNEVIIS

OLEVIK

elataks (’there would be lived’)

MINEVIK

oldaks elatud (’there would have been lived’)



KAUDNE KÕNEVIIS

OLEVIK

elatavat (’it is told that there is being lived’)

MINEVIK

oldavat elatud (’it is told that there has been lived’)



KÄÄNDELISED VORMID

MA-TEGEVUSNIMI e MA-INFINITIIV

Elama (to live)

DA-TEGEVUSNIMI e DA-INFINITIIV

elada (to live)

DES-VORM

elades (’while living’)

NUD-KESKSÕNA e NUD-PARTITSIIP

elanud

TUD-KESKÕNA e TUD-PARTITSIIP

elatud

V-KESKSÕNA e V-PARTITSIIP

elav (’living’)

TAV-KESKSÕNA e TAV-PARTITSIIP

elatav (’livable’ or impersonal variant of elav)

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Postby stordragon » 2005-09-14, 1:35

A thousand thanks!

However I have some questions for your last post, and I would put them forth later on here!
人生得意须尽欢,莫使金樽空对月。
Hvat krevst fyri at kunnast við aðrar mentanir? Tað er fyrst og fremst teirra mál!(á føroyskum)
Dovddan earenoamážit beroštumi suoma-ugrálaš giellajoavkku dutkamuššii.(davvisámegillii)
Būtina imtis neatidėliotinų priemonių nykstančioms kalboms apsaugoti nuo išnykimo;nes kalbinė įvairovė,mano nuomone,yra ne mažiau svarbi nei biologinė!(lietuviškai)

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Postby Loiks » 2005-09-14, 16:31

Questions are welcome! And: you wanted a list of Estonian grammar terms. Is there such list with Latin-based words that I could take as an example somewhere? It would be good for myself too, because I'm too used with the Estonian terms.

But I forgot that there is also negation.

So here it is.

ISIKULINE TEGUMOOD

KINDEL KÕNEVIIS

OLEVIK

ei ela

LIHTMINEVIK

ei elanud

TÄISMINEVIK

ei ole elanud

ENNEMINEVIK

ei olnud elanud



KÄSKIV KÕNEVIIS

OLEVIK

Ainsus:

1. ärgu elagu
2. ära ela
3. ärgu elagu

Mitmus:

1. ärgem elagem
2. ärge elage
3. ärgu elagu

All the other forms: put this 'ärg-' in front of affirmative form.



TINGIV KÕNEVIIS

OLEVIK

ei elaks

LIHTMINEVIK

ei elanuks

TÄISMINEVIK

ei oleks elanud

ENNEMINEVIK

ei olnuks elanud



KAUDNE KÕNEVIIS

OLEVIK

ei elavat

LIHTMINEVIK

ei elanuvat

TÄISMINEVIK

ei olevat elanud

ENNEMINEVIK

ei olnuvat elanud



UMBISIKULINE TEGUMOOD

KINDEL KÕNEVIIS

OLEVIK

ei elata

LIHTMINEVIK

ei elatud

TÄISMINEVIK

ei olda elatud

ENNEMINEVIK

ei oldud elatud



KÄSKIV KÕNEVIIS

OLEVIK

ärgu elatagu

(MINEVIK)

ärgu oldagu elatud



TINGIV KÕNEVIIS

OLEVIK

ei elataks

MINEVIK

ei oldaks elatud



KAUDNE KÕNEVIIS

OLEVIK

ei elatavat

MINEVIK

ei oldavat elatud

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Postby eurooplane » 2005-09-15, 7:43

Anyway, it’s possible to make such a list, from the “Käsiraamat”, if interested. :wink:

Here is a little chart, about conjugation words:





Pööramine e verbi paradigma = conjugation




Paradigma = inflexion

Ainsus e singular = singular
Mitmus e pluural = plural
Eitus e eitav kõneliik e negatiiv = negation
Jaatus e jaatav kõneliik e afirmatiiv = affirmation

Pöördsõnad e verbid = verbs
Isikulised asesõnad e personaalpronoomenid e isik = personal pronouns

Tegumood = voice
Umbisikuline tegumood e impersonaal e umbes = impersonal voice
Isikuline tegumood e personaal = personal voice

Kõneviis = mode
Tegevusnimi e infinitiiv = infinitive
Käskiv kõneviis e imperatiiv = imperative
Kesksõna e partitsiip = particip
Kindel kõneviis e indikatiiv = indicative
Tingiv kõneviis e konditsionaal = conditional
Kaudne kõneviis e kvotatiiv = quotative

Aeg ( e tempus ?) = tense
Olevik = present
Tulevik = futur
Minevik = past
Täisminevik e perfekt = perfect (french: « passé-composé » = composed past)
Lihtminevik e imperfekt = imperfect (german: « Präteritum » = preterite)
Enneminevik e pluskvamperfekt = pluperfect (french: « plus-que-parfait »)







I almost forget my question…
Nud-particip for personal voice, and –tud for impersonal?
In the following sentence: « Kaks väikest tütarlast läinuvad muiste kord metsa marjule ja eksinuvad ära. », there is a strange tense, based on nud-particip. Is it a litteral tense? How do you use this ?

http://www.wordtheque.com/pls/wordtc/ne ... 69&lang=ET


Alex.

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Postby stordragon » 2005-09-15, 9:00

Loiks wrote:Questions are welcome! And: you wanted a list of Estonian grammar terms. Is there such list with Latin-based words that I could take as an example somewhere? It would be good for myself too, because I'm too used with the Estonian terms.

But I forgot that there is also negation.

Thank you!
As we know, the English verb 'live' serves in common cases as an intransitive verb which implies that it normally does not have an object, i.e. it cannot be used in passive voice, so I wonder what you meant in the last post by phrases such as 'be lived', 'have been being lived'?
i.e.Who's the actor and who's the undergoer of the verb 'live'?

Secondly,
1. elanuksin (I would have lived)
...
1. olnuksin elanud (I would have had lived)

To my best knowledge there doesn't seem to be such tenses as 'have had done sth.' or 'would have had done sth.' in English(or is it a rare compound tense that I'm totally ignorant up to this moment,e.g.,similar to les temps surcomposés in French?), thus I'd ask, what the phrase 'I would have had lived' would exactly mean in Estonian, and how it would differ from 'I would have lived'? And thank you for further reply! :D
人生得意须尽欢,莫使金樽空对月。
Hvat krevst fyri at kunnast við aðrar mentanir? Tað er fyrst og fremst teirra mál!(á føroyskum)
Dovddan earenoamážit beroštumi suoma-ugrálaš giellajoavkku dutkamuššii.(davvisámegillii)
Būtina imtis neatidėliotinų priemonių nykstančioms kalboms apsaugoti nuo išnykimo;nes kalbinė įvairovė,mano nuomone,yra ne mažiau svarbi nei biologinė!(lietuviškai)

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Postby stordragon » 2005-09-15, 9:26

Loiks wrote:Questions are welcome! And: you wanted a list of Estonian grammar terms. Is there such list with Latin-based words that I could take as an example somewhere? It would be good for myself too, because I'm too used with the Estonian terms.

With Latin-based terms that you mentioned, sorry I have not yet find sufficient resources, except only http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Estonian .

There IS an overview of Finnish grammar on that site, though: http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Finnish_grammar , however as concerning Estonian, I simply cannot find any detailed information about the Latin-based grammar terms of it on that site:( Or perhaps you may find these terms in the Finnish version? :)

However, as for me, I've been using this grammar book, http://www.eestikeel.nl/index2.html , which is written in Dutch, where one can find many 'Latin-based' grammatical terms of Estonian(e.g.http://www.eestikeel.nl/grammatica/naamvallen.html), and you'd perhaps take a view on it provided you too comprehend Dutch on those pages, and make a glossary of comparative terms between the Estonian and the Latin-based terms?
人生得意须尽欢,莫使金樽空对月。
Hvat krevst fyri at kunnast við aðrar mentanir? Tað er fyrst og fremst teirra mál!(á føroyskum)
Dovddan earenoamážit beroštumi suoma-ugrálaš giellajoavkku dutkamuššii.(davvisámegillii)
Būtina imtis neatidėliotinų priemonių nykstančioms kalboms apsaugoti nuo išnykimo;nes kalbinė įvairovė,mano nuomone,yra ne mažiau svarbi nei biologinė!(lietuviškai)

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Postby Loiks » 2005-09-15, 16:07

eurooplane wrote:
I almost forget my question…
Nud-particip for personal voice, and –tud for impersonal?
In the following sentence: « Kaks väikest tütarlast läinuvad muiste kord metsa marjule ja eksinuvad ära. », there is a strange tense, based on nud-particip. Is it a litteral tense? How do you use this ?

http://www.wordtheque.com/pls/wordtc/ne ... c?code=369〈=ET


Alex.


About -nud and -tud you're right. Ma olen kooli lõpetanud. (I have finished the school.) Kool on lõpetatud. (The school has been finished.)

This sentence of yours is in quotative (kaudne kõneviis), however it's archaic I'd say (my grandmother uses that 'läinuvad' form). Today I'd say 'Kaks väikest tütarlast olevat läinud kord metsa marjule ja olevat eksinud ära.' or 'Kaks väikest tütarlast läinud kord metsa marjule ja eksinud ära'. -vad ending tends to shorten to -d (f.e. olid (they were), old form: olivad) except in present tense.

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Postby Loiks » 2005-09-15, 17:23

stordragon wrote:
Thank you!
As we know, the English verb 'live' serves in common cases as an intransitive verb which implies that it normally does not have an object, i.e. it cannot be used in passive voice, so I wonder what you meant in the last post by phrases such as 'be lived', 'have been being lived'?
i.e.Who's the actor and who's the undergoer of the verb 'live'?

Secondly,
1. elanuksin (I would have lived)
...
1. olnuksin elanud (I would have had lived)

To my best knowledge there doesn't seem to be such tenses as 'have had done sth.' or 'would have had done sth.' in English(or is it a rare compound tense that I'm totally ignorant up to this moment,e.g.,similar to les temps surcomposés in French?), thus I'd ask, what the phrase 'I would have had lived' would exactly mean in Estonian, and how it would differ from 'I would have lived'? And thank you for further reply! :D


I had a long story almost finished when there was a blackout for a minute and I lost everything :evil: So this variant would be shorter.

Firstly, about the actor: the actor's quality and quantity is unknown. Elatakse - somebody somewhere somehow lives, the only exactly known thing is that somebody lives . Of course with that word there can't be any undergoers. But: Seda raamatut loeti palju (This book was read a lot). We don't know who read, undergoer is the book. Or: Midagi oldi nähtud (Something had been seen). The only sure thing is the fact of seeing.

olnuksin elanud - before a certain moment in the past I would have lived if the conditions had been different.

oleksin elanud - at that moment in the past I would have lived.

elanuksin - actually same as previous but not used much any more.

Looking at those translations into English I made... I've surprised myself too.
:oops:

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stordragon
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Postby stordragon » 2005-09-15, 21:31

Loiks wrote:I had a long story almost finished when there was a blackout for a minute and I lost everything :evil: So this variant would be shorter.

Oh That's really damn! :( I have too experienced such incidents for dozens of times, so now I have to draft my long post in a Word file :wink: , and remember to save the file at intervals in case a blackout occur..
Anyway much admiration for your patience and your work! :D

Firstly, about the actor: the actor's quality and quantity is unknown. Elatakse - somebody somewhere somehow lives, the only exactly known thing is that somebody lives . Of course with that word there can't be any undergoers. But: Seda raamatut loeti palju (This book was read a lot). We don't know who read, undergoer is the book. Or: Midagi oldi nähtud (Something had been seen). The only sure thing is the fact of seeing.

olnuksin elanud - before a certain moment in the past I would have lived if the conditions had been different.

oleksin elanud - at that moment in the past I would have lived.

elanuksin - actually same as previous but not used much any more.

I see! Thank you so much & I'll spend some more time to study thoroughly all you've provided us here. I don't have more questions for the moment but I really appreciate that you'd keep an eye on such threads! :)

Looking at those translations into English I made... I've surprised myself too.
:oops

No, personally I don't think it's anything surprising. Actually I find it really a great job, as a whole, that you've done for us beginners, despite some very minor faults(now I see)! And it can hardly be denied that the Estonian grammar is extremely sophisticated so it can be tough for everyone to put it directly into English.. :wink: Thank you again for your elaborate instructions & I look forward to read more from you about Estonian! :D
人生得意须尽欢,莫使金樽空对月。
Hvat krevst fyri at kunnast við aðrar mentanir? Tað er fyrst og fremst teirra mál!(á føroyskum)
Dovddan earenoamážit beroštumi suoma-ugrálaš giellajoavkku dutkamuššii.(davvisámegillii)
Būtina imtis neatidėliotinų priemonių nykstančioms kalboms apsaugoti nuo išnykimo;nes kalbinė įvairovė,mano nuomone,yra ne mažiau svarbi nei biologinė!(lietuviškai)

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Postby eurooplane » 2005-09-16, 11:46

Actually I find it really a great job, as a whole, that you've done for us beginners, despite some very minor faults(now I see)! And it can hardly be denied that the Estonian grammar is extremely sophisticated so it can be tough for everyone to put it directly into English.. Thank you again for your elaborate instructions & I look forward to read more from you about Estonian!


I think the same. Good work!


KÄSKIV KÕNEVIIS [NEGATIIV]

OLEVIK

Ainsus:

1. ärgu elagu
2. ära ela
3. ärgu elagu

Mitmus:

1. ärgem elagem
2. ärge elage
3. ärgu elagu

All the other forms: put this 'ärg-' in front of affirmative form.


I try it: :wink:

KÄSKIV KÕNEVIIS NEGATIIV

MINEVIK

Ainsus:

1. ärgu olgu elanud
2. ära ole elanud
3. ärgu olgu elanud

Mitmus:

1. ärgem olgem elanud
2. ärge olge elanud
3. ärgu olgu elanud


In which cases do you use a past imperative? It’s so strange to give an order out of the present! :?
Perhaps the order is given in the past, and sb in the present tells “ Ole elanud! ”. Then, could I translate it by “You had to live.”?
“Ära ole elanud!” = “ You hadn’t to live.”?
“Ärgu elagu!” = “I give myself the order to live!”?? So strange!!:D

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Postby Loiks » 2005-09-16, 16:50

eurooplane wrote:

KÄSKIV KÕNEVIIS [NEGATIIV]

OLEVIK

Ainsus:

1. ärgu elagu
2. ära ela
3. ärgu elagu

Mitmus:

1. ärgem elagem
2. ärge elage
3. ärgu elagu

All the other forms: put this 'ärg-' in front of affirmative form.


I try it: :wink:

KÄSKIV KÕNEVIIS NEGATIIV

MINEVIK

Ainsus:

1. ärgu olgu elanud
2. ära ole elanud
3. ärgu olgu elanud

Mitmus:

1. ärgem olgem elanud
2. ärge olge elanud
3. ärgu olgu elanud


In which cases do you use a past imperative? It’s so strange to give an order out of the present! :?
Perhaps the order is given in the past, and sb in the present tells “ Ole elanud! ”. Then, could I translate it by “You had to live.”?
“Ära ole elanud!” = “ You hadn’t to live.”?
“Ärgu elagu!” = “I give myself the order to live!”?? So strange!!:D


I see the point, you can't deny things that have already happened. So maybe I've messed up a little here :), sorry. Maybe it would be right to say that past imperative is logically impossible (technically your try was absolutely correct). But 'ärgu elagu' would be correct in following example: someone keeps telling that he's tired of living and living sucks big time, and then you'd tell somebody else about it with anger because you're tired of him talking that way all the time: 'ärgu siis elagu!' (then he doesn't have to live! can't be translated into English actually).

As I've done lots of thinking about the issue now I guess I wanted to 'fill all the blanks' without thinking if it really is used or not. Excuse moi, it has been kind of hazard (good fun and relaxation after working day anyway :). But all your good questions have put me thinking the right way, thanks! It's a collaboration after all, isn't it?

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Postby eurooplane » 2005-09-16, 20:35

I see the point, you can't deny things that have already happened. So maybe I've messed up a little here , sorry. Maybe it would be right to say that past imperative is logically impossible (technically your try was absolutely correct). But 'ärgu elagu' would be correct in following example: someone keeps telling that he's tired of living and living sucks big time, and then you'd tell somebody else about it with anger because you're tired of him talking that way all the time: 'ärgu siis elagu!' (then he doesn't have to live! can't be translated into English actually).

With your example, I realized it’s possible to give an order at the 3rd singular.
And I could naturaly do it, using another mode/ Kõneviis: the Subjonctive. (Subjonctiiv?)

Qu’il vienne immédiatement! (subjonctive with idee of imperative)
= ‘Et ta tuleb otseselt !’ (indicative)
=Tulgu otseselt! (imperative)


On my side, I’m trying to translate the tenses.
In conditional, there are no problems with olevik. « I would like sth »
Lihtminevik: OK. « At that time, I would have like… »
Täiseminevik: OK, but difficultly. « At that time, if sth had happened, I would had like… »
Enneminevik: Well… I’m lost! :)

As I've done lots of thinking about the issue now I guess I wanted to 'fill all the blanks' without thinking if it really is used or not.
Anyway, Loikstonian conjugations are very fun !
Pööramised loige keeles on väga naljaka ! :D

It's a collaboration after all, isn't it?
Yep!

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Postby eurooplane » 2005-09-25, 13:01

I have another question:
In which cases is used quotative?
Only after näima, as I often seen?
:?:

Mul on iseküsimus:
Milles juhtumis kasutatakse kaudne?
Ainult pärast “näima”, nagu sageli vaatan?

Thanks in advance! (Tänamiseni?)

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Postby Loiks » 2005-09-25, 15:49

eurooplane wrote:I have another question:
In which cases is used quotative?
Only after näima, as I often seen?
:?:

Mul on iseküsimus:
Milles juhtumis kasutatakse kaudne?
Ainult pärast “näima”, nagu sageli vaatan?

Thanks in advance! (Tänamiseni?)


At first corrections:

Mul on üks teine küsimus: (iseküsimus doesn't suit here, it's just wrong context. Iseküsimus on see, kas ta hakkama saab. It's another question if he'll manage.)
Millisel juhul / Millal / Mis puhul kasutatakse kaudset kõneviisi. (juhtum is an accident. You can't say kaudne without kõneviis.)
..., nagu sageli näen (vaatama - to look, to watch)

Ette tänades!


I would say that it's pretty much used in spoken language. People love to speak about other people's actions especially when they don't know exactly about these actions. And quotative is the best possible way to express those relations. Näima on the contrary is very litteral word and hardly used in spoken language, you'd say paistma orally. Täna paistab/näib ilus ilm tulevat. (It seems to come beautiful weather today.) It's an expression actually, not the 'natural' quotative, paistma, näima demands quotative here, I guess. Täna paistvat/näivat ilus ilm tulevat - this is real quotative.

So you use qoutative speaking about something that you're not sure about, that you have heard about from a third person.

From Eesti Keele Käsiraamat:
Kaudne kõneviis väljendab kaudset (st kelleltki kolmandalt kuuldud) väidet, nt Jüri olevat endale uue maja ostnud.

Well, I hope you got something clearer :). If not, ask again!

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Postby eurooplane » 2005-09-26, 19:39

Well, I hope you got something clearer . If not, ask again!
It’s clear for the moment. Thanks again!

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Postby eurooplane » 2005-10-10, 8:34

Kas võidakse kasutada « pole » verbi eitava vormiks ?
Näiteks, « Ta pole elanud » ?

Is it possible to use the word « pole » for the negative form ?
For example, « Ta pole elanud » instead of « Ta ei ole elanud ».

Alex.


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