Naava wrote:Linguaphile wrote:My Estonian etymological sources says nothing about *talsi but instead offer various possibilities including a connection to Swedish or German Stall (and therefore Estonian tall and Finnish talli)
I don't think it could be Stall because
1) its stem is talle-, but talli's stem is talli- (e.g. tallella vs tallilla)
2) its strong grade stem is talte- (e.g.
talteen , to put away, to put into a safe space
Right, unless both were loaned from Stall independently; if some phrase using Stall was loaned with the "storage" meaning and the talle stem, and at some other time Stall was loaned with the "stable" meaning and given the talli stem. They would have always been considered separate words, with different forms, but both from Stall. No idea if that actually happened though. It was just the only explanation I could come up with for the -e versus -i.
The Estonian etymological dictionary really takes you in circles with this one.
For
tallel it says
On oletatud, et sama tüvi mis tald. Vt ka talitama.So then you go to
tald and it says
Tõenäoliselt tuletis tallama tüvest. On arvatud, et sõna on osaliselt segunenud skandinaavia laenuga tüvest, mille vasted on vanaislandi stallr 'alus; altar; auguga puu, kuhu toetub masti alumine ots; tall; sõim', rootsi stall 'tall; sõidukite hoiukoht'; mrd 'nugade vms alus seinal; viiuliroop'. Segunemine on tõenäolisem nendes läänemeresoome keeltes, kus kehaosa tähendust ei tunta. Vt ka tall1 ja tallel.Looking up
tallama doesn't give us anything new:
Läänemeresoome või läänemeresoome-permi tüvi. Vt ka tald.Tall1 mentioned above is actually the word for a young goat or sheep but it has the right
talle stem with -e and aside from a possible connection to Hebrew (
ṭāleh 'lambatall') the entry tells us that another meaning of
tald in old dialects was a (human) kid:
On ka oletatud, et sõnas on sama tüvi kui tald, mille üks tähendusi on vanemas murdekeeles olnud 'põngerjas'. That's nice but meaning-wise it seems we're getting further and further away from our original word (
tallel) here.
So let's try the other word referenced in the original entry,
talitama:
On oletatud, et sama tüvi mis sõnas taluma ja/või taltuma, mõjutanud võib olla ka sõna tallel tüvi. Vt ka talitsema.So now we've got to look up
taluma and we get
Läänemeresoome tüvi. Vt ka talitama ja taltuma and we're just going in circles.
So we'll try the word
taltuma referenced above and we get
Võib olla tuletis taluma tüvest. Vt ka talitama ja talitsema. Still going in circles.
So our last hope is the only referenced word that we haven't looked up yet,
talitsema, and it says
Võib olla tuletis taltuma tüvest. Vormiliselt saab tõlgendada talitsema tuletisena.So yeah. Lots of words that might be connected to each other but no indication of where any of them came from. The entries just reference each other. And the other odd thing is that most of them are infixed verbs, which are usually derivatives themselves, but aside from
Stall, Old Norse
stallr and the various forms and meanings of
tall there's not much indication of what they might be derived from.