Moderator:aaakknu
E}{pugnator wrote:I've read quite often that phone you know the historical development of the Estonian language (or perhaps if you know Finnish? ) the apparent irregularity on the formation of the genitive and partitive becomes self-evident. You learn how the patterns that once we regular started to look irregular thanks to the deletion of, say, a consonant that may even reappear in other forms. How much truth is there in this that can be used for practical learning? Where to go for those sources on historical forms? Would Finnish help with this?
After almost three years studying I'm still clueless about how genitives and partitives are formed and still learn each new form separately.
ainurakne wrote:as Standard Finnish is much closer to Proto-Finnic, than Estonian is.
Oo...Naava wrote:You'd love my dialect, then. It's even closer to Proto-Finnic than Standard Finnish is. :p
ainurakne wrote:Oo...Naava wrote:You'd love my dialect, then. It's even closer to Proto-Finnic than Standard Finnish is. :p
You may have already mentioned it, in which case I have overlooked or forgot it, but what is your dialect?
And where could I hear/see it?
Naava wrote:Southern Ostrobothnian (Etelä-Pohjanmaan murre in Finnish).
You can hear it spoken here (she sounds exactly like my grandma, and it's so creepy because she's been dead over 15 years),
What's the audible difference? Is it more monotonous, like "regular" Finnish?Naava wrote:The last one is the newest, recorded in 2005. However, she's been living outside of Southern Ostrobothnia, and you can hear it in her speech.
Haha, some of 8b sound kind of like Estonian.Naava wrote:Just click "kuuntele" after any place name that has (4). The numbers refer to the areas on this map.
And don't forget the "bottom"!Linguaphile wrote:It never ceases to amuse me that põhi means both "north" and "base, low part."
Well, the two words have always been existed, but they have probably been officially mapped to specific cardinal directions quite recently, and done so differently in both countries.Linguaphile wrote:And don't even get me started on etelä/edel and lounas/lõuna.....
ainurakne wrote:Haha, some of 8b sound kind of like Estonian.
Linguaphile wrote:Awww, it's nice to hear what your grandma sounded like.
Thanks for the links and information!
And I have to admit my knowledge of Finnish geography is so limited that I hadn't realized Ostrobothnia and Pohjanmaa were the same place. (Sorry, don't be mad. ) I had assumed Pohjanmaa was further north.
(Okay, that's because I was thinking of it like põhja. It never ceases to amuse me that põhi means both "north" and "base, low part." Finnish is only slightly less confusing with pohja/pohjois and since I get those two mixed up anyway, the fact that they are different words doesn't really even help me. I still can't remember which is which half the time. I just think, okay, that's like põhja. It must be "north".)
It's like someone with a twisted sense of humor was inventing words for the two languages by sitting around in a snowy forest someplace saying "hehehe... let's get them really lost." LOL.
ainurakne wrote:I also noticed that the word-final m hasn't changed into n in some places. Especially "om".
ainurakne wrote:What's the audible difference? Is it more monotonous, like "regular" Finnish?
ainurakne wrote:"Lõuna" is midday or the lunch time. The time of day when the sun is somewhere around south-east to south-west, depending on how early or late the lunch is traditionally held.
"Edel" referred to the front side of the dwelling - where the entrance (or the hole in the wall, if we're talking about ancient times) is located. The entrance was placed towards the direction where the sun was the hottest, in order to accumulate heat during the day. So again, approximately the same direction.
Linguaphile wrote:ainurakne wrote:Haha, some of 8b sound kind of like Estonian.
Wow, it really does! Or Votic.
That reminds me of this.Naava wrote:It's like someone with a twisted sense of humor was inventing words for the two languages by sitting around in a snowy forest someplace saying "hehehe... let's get them really lost." LOL.
I swear this is how the grammar of Finnic languages came to be.
Oh, okay.Naava wrote:Not really; that's assimilation and it happens even in Standard Finnish. /n/ becomes [m] before /m/ and /p/ (and [ŋ] before /k/, and [n̪] before /t/... poor /n/!) It's not usually shown in writing, but sometimes when people write in a dialect, they try to include everything.
1b sounds like someone from Saaremaa.
Naava wrote:I swear this is how the grammar of Finnic languages came to be.
Yeah, that sounds about right.... Actually, it turns out I've seen that same story in a video: How Estonian language came to be - Welcome to Estonia!ainurakne wrote:That reminds me of this.
Naava wrote:I'm already used to hear people say Finland is "somewhere in Africa, right?"
Oh, I didn't realize the vowel of pohja changed to o when -inen was added, so I thought they were different words (with different vowels).Naava wrote:It does mean 'north', too. For example, North Star is Pohjantähti in Finnish. Pohjoinen is just pohja + the adjective marker -inen.
That does make sense now!ainurakne wrote:"Lõuna" is midday or the lunch time. The time of day when the sun is somewhere around south-east to south-west, depending on how early or late the lunch is traditionally held.
LOL - or why the midday meal is called "southern food" (in Estonia anyway - lõunasöök. I don't know if Finnish has an equivalent to that or only lounas on its own).Naava wrote:That makes so much sense. I've always been wondering why one of the directions is called "lunch"!
Yeah, this story has become quite popular and wide spread, I guess.Linguaphile wrote:Yeah, that sounds about right.... Actually, it turns out I've seen that same story in a video: How Estonian language came to be - Welcome to Estonia!
Linguaphile wrote: Sadly geography isn't really taught anymore....
-- even in fairly academic publications I've sometimes found references to Estonia being one of the "Balkan countries". And I've heard people mix up Sweden and Switzerland pretty often.
Oh, I didn't realize the vowel of pohja changed to o when -inen was added, so I thought they were different words (with different vowels).Naava wrote:It does mean 'north', too. For example, North Star is Pohjantähti in Finnish. Pohjoinen is just pohja + the adjective marker -inen.
LOL - or why the midday meal is called "southern food" (in Estonia anyway - lõunasöök. I don't know if Finnish has an equivalent to that or only lounas on its own).Naava wrote:That makes so much sense. I've always been wondering why one of the directions is called "lunch"!
Naava wrote:Linguaphile wrote: Sadly geography isn't really taught anymore....
We were forced to learn every European country and its capital in school. I still think there's way too many small countries in ex-Yugoslavia... I have no memory of learning any non-European countries in school*, though I think we had something.
Anyway, when Azerbaijan won the Eurovision, it was lovely to see how confused people were because no one had any idea where it was.
*except, for some reason, the countries in South America. My theory is that Uruguay and Paraguay sounded so funny that I would never forget them. I also remember Nauru because everyone thought it's funny that there's an island that name literally means 'laughter'.-- even in fairly academic publications I've sometimes found references to Estonia being one of the "Balkan countries". And I've heard people mix up Sweden and Switzerland pretty often.
Wow, that's bad! I can - kinda - understand why people mix up Austria and Australia, but Sweden and Switzerland...? Lol.
I'm not going to admit that for a second or two I stared at the "Balkan countries" and wondered what's wrong, Estonia is there...
ainurakne wrote:Yeah, this story has become quite popular and wide spread, I guess.Linguaphile wrote:Yeah, that sounds about right.... Actually, it turns out I've seen that same story in a video: How Estonian language came to be - Welcome to Estonia!
But it seems to be originally written by this guy - an American who lived in Hiiumaa in the early nineties.
A show about him, if you are interested.
Same: we had to learn every European country and their capital. And we had to be able to name everything on a blank map (with only borders marked on it) or place listed countries to correct places on a similar map.Naava wrote:We were forced to learn every European country and its capital in school. I still think there's way too many small countries in ex-Yugoslavia... I have no memory of learning any non-European countries in school*, though I think we had something.
*except, for some reason, the countries in South America.
Yes, jalg has both strong (jalgu - partitive, illative) and weak grade u-plurals (jalu - instructive and as the stem for various other cases; I haven't seen it used for genitive, though, although technically could be possible).Yes, there's a rule that [a] changes to [o] before [i] and [j]. For example, the plural partitive of jalka is jalkoja. I think Estonian has a bit of that left because Wiktionary says the plural partitive is jalgu and then there's the instructive paljajalu vs paljain jaloin.
In Estonian: hommikusöök (morning food), lõunasöök (midday food) and õhtusöök (evening food).Naava wrote:I was about to say it's only "lounas" but no, google tells me people do speak of lounasruoka. Maybe I didn't know that because my family usually calls it päiväruoka and, similarly, dinner is iltaruoka aka day food and evening food... :p
Linguaphile wrote:I consider myself pretty good with geography and knew that Azerbaijan is a country south of Russia, but until fairly recently I thought it was over near Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan. For some reason it just sounds like it should be there instead of near Georgia and Armenia. Maybe it's because of the Z in the names?
As for Switzerland/Sweden, I think it's because the adjective for Switzerland in English is Swiss. People hear "Swiss" and can't remember which Sw- country it describes.
That's so funny about Nauru! And it's really called Nauru in Finnish too, right? Because apparently in Nauruan it's Naoero (I looked it up) so Finnish could have used that instead.... But then, when I looked it up, I also found that it used to be called Pleasant Island in English. So there you go....
ainurakne wrote:And we had to be able to name everything on a blank map (with only borders marked on it) or place listed countries to correct places on a similar map.
ainurakne wrote:I think, this should be pretty consistent, for partitive at least: kala -> kalu (FI: kaloja); aeg -> aegu (FI: aikoja); etc...
ainurakne wrote:Although, there are also weird things like for example leib -> leibu (FI: leipiä).
(I can't find how it could have been in Proto-Finnic, though)
ainurakne wrote:And also, if ai hasn't changed into oi (seem to be words with weak partitive and strong genitive): hammas -> hambaid (FI: hampaita); kinnas -> kindaid (FI: kintaita); and also for example põõsas -> põõsaid
ainurakne wrote:In Estonian: hommikusöök (morning food), lõunasöök (midday food) and õhtusöök (evening food).
I see. Good to know.Naava wrote:I think it was /leipiðä/. If I remember right, plural partitives were just the stem + plural marker /i/ + /tA/ or /ðA/.
Hmm, maybe.Naava wrote:It might be that leib was seen as part of the same group with kala, jalg and other nouns that end or used to end with an A. Analogy? There's also the diminutive leipuska, so there might've been some A/Ä -> U -rule.
Yeah, I figured there was something going on. I was just emphasizing that despite being different from the others, they are still the same in both languages.Naava wrote:ainurakne wrote:And also, if ai hasn't changed into oi (seem to be words with weak partitive and strong genitive): hammas -> hambaid (FI: hampaita); kinnas -> kindaid (FI: kintaita); and also for example põõsas -> põõsaid
That's because none of these words had A and I in the same syllable. You see, they all end with a S: the plural partitive used to be hampas+i+ta > hampasita > hampahita > hampaita (> hambaid). Compare with the South Ostrobothnian dialect which has hampahia, lampahia, kintahia, pensahia... When the /h/ disappeared, the A+I = OI rule had already went out of style.
I think they are mostly used for the food itself.Naava wrote:How are these used? Can you say that you had X for lõunasöök or that you're having lõunasöök with someone?ainurakne wrote:In Estonian: hommikusöök (morning food), lõunasöök (midday food) and õhtusöök (evening food).
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