aitama

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Re: aitama

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-09-13, 0:14

kloie wrote:Ta raakis nonda, et jain uskuma.
Ta jai hetkeks mottesse.
Ma jain hatta keemiaulesannetega.
Lopuks jai ta vaidluses alla.
Me Jaime kahtlema, kas teda uskuda voi mitte?
Kahjuks jaid nad hiljaks.
Ma jain roomust keeletuks.
Nad jaid vihma katte.
Kas sa jaid bussist maha?
Ma jain vastusega hiljaks.
I'm very confused about these sentences.

These are all phrases using jääma (to stay, to remain). Some are fairly idiomatic, so they can't really be translated literally. I'll do my best below. (I'm in a bit of a hurry so ainurakne or others, please forgive/correct any mistakes!) :wink:

Ta rääkis nõnda, et jäin uskuma. = He spoke in such a way that I believed him.
Ta jäi hetkeks mõttesse. = He stopped to think for a moment. / He stopped for a moment in thought.
Ma jäin hätta keemiaülesannetega. = I had trouble with the chemistry assignments/tasks.
Lõpuks jäi ta vaidluses alla. = In the end he lost the argument.
Me jäime kahtlema, kas teda uskuda või mitte? = We were left in doubt of whether to believe him or not.
Kahjuks jäid nad hiljaks. = Unfortunately they were late.
Ma jäin rõõmust keeletuks. = I was left speechless with joy. / I was left speechless from happiness.
Nad jäid vihma kätte. = They stayed out in the rain.
Kas sa jäid bussist maha? = Did you miss the bus?
Ma jäin vastusega hiljaks. = I was late with my response/answer.
Learning is a treasure that follows its owner everywhere. El aprendizaje es un tesoro que sigue a su dueño por todas partes. Õpitu on aare, mis saadab oma omanikku kõikjal. Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt. L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout. Txoj kev kawm yog cov khoom muaj nqis, uas raws nws tus tswv qhov txhia chaw. Op'minõ om aarõq, miä saat uma umanikku egäl puul.

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Re: aitama

Postby kloie » 2017-09-14, 14:18

Are sõitma and juhtima synonyms? And what about ajama?

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Re: aitama

Postby ainurakne » 2017-09-14, 14:49

Sõitma is to ride in general. You can ride all kinds of vehicles (and some animals) without necessarily being the driver.


Juhtima is to drive, to lead. So, besides driving vehicles (leading them into the direction you want), you can also lead people, processes and whatever.


Ajama is an old word and isn't generally used that much anymore, except in many specific phrases. It is similar to juhtima: "Ajan auto garaaži." (I (will) drive the car into the garage), "Ajan auto garaažist välja." (I (will) drive the car out of the garage), etc...
Also for animals: "Ajan lehmad lauta." (I (will) drive/lead the cows into the barn; I (will) make the cows go into the barn)

But also to make something go the way you want/wish: "Ajasin ta minema." (I made him/her go away; I drove him/her away), "Ajasin ta hulluks." (I made him/her go crazy; I drove him/her crazy), "Ajasin kruusi ümber." (I made the cup fall over), "Ajasin vee keema." (I made the water to become boiling), etc...

But also things like "Ajasin habeme ära." (I shaved my beard) ~ I drove my beard away :mrgreen:
(and "Ajan habet." - I am shaving my beard)


But ajama is never used for driving or riding in general, at least I have never heard that in Estonian.
So, don't say "Ajan autot." when just driving a/the car!
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Re: aitama

Postby kloie » 2017-09-18, 13:22

I'm having trouble with these sentences:
Silla alla ei tohi minna.
Raamat on riiuli peal.
Mere kohale kogunesid pilved.
Markmil on raamatu all.
Kabinet on saali korval.
Kaev on maja juures.
Meie oleme lembitu juures kulas.

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Re: aitama

Postby ainurakne » 2017-09-18, 14:32

Silla alla ei tohi minna.
It is not allowed / is forbidden to go under the bridge.
lit: bridge's to under, one must not (is forbidden) to go

Raamat on riiuli peal.
A/the book is on a/the shelf.

Mere kohale kogunesid pilved.
Clouds formed above the sea.

Märkmik on raamatu all.
A/the notebook is under a/the book.

Kabinet on saali kõrval.
A/the study is beside a/the hall.

Kaev on maja juures.
A/the well is near a/the house.

Meie oleme Lembitu juures külas.
We are at Lembit's place visiting him. (or since the long "meie" is used, more like: It is us that are at Lembit's place visiting him.)


kõrval - beside; but literally means on/at one's ear
juures - near; but literally means inside one's root

A little more about such expression from this booklet, page 9 (Language and a lingering mentality).
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Re: aitama

Postby Naava » 2017-09-18, 15:33

I started to read that booklet ainurakne linked and I saw this:
Hence the contemporary Estonian käskima ‘to order’, can be translated ‘to give
orders with one’s hand’

Is it true? I can see the käs- part looks like käsi, but where did the -ki- then come from? :|

(Also, how is this word conjugated? Ma käskin? What's the imperative? Käskisin? What?? :lol: )
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Re: aitama

Postby ainurakne » 2017-09-18, 17:37

Naava wrote:Is it true? I can see the käs- part looks like käsi, but where did the -ki- then come from? :|
I have no idea whether this is true or someone's wishful thinking, but it sure looks similar. :D

I know two parallel forms of this verb. I think in Standard Estonian, the first one is a lot more common:

käskima/käskida:
present: käsin, käsid, käsib, käsime, käsite, käsivad | ei käsi
past: käskisin, käskisid, käskis, käskisime, käskisite, käskisid | ei käskinud

käskma/kästa:
present: käsen, käsed, käseb, käseme, käsete, käsevad | ei käse
past: käsin, käsid, käsi, käsime, käsite, käsid | ei käs(k)nud
or: käsksin, käsksid, käskis, käsksime, käsksite, käsksid

Imperatives are:
käsi (2nd person s.) and käskige (2nd person pl.)
käse (2nd person s.) and käske :?: (2nd person pl.)
for the respective forms.
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Re: aitama

Postby Naava » 2017-09-18, 19:45

So... you have two forms, where the present tense of one form is identical with the past tense of the other form. Also, the past tense of käskima is identical with the conditional of Finnish käskeä. Time to twist my brain sideways! :partyhat: This is why I both love and hate learning Estonian.

How does the conditional work, then? Käsiksin & käseksin or what?
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Re: aitama

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-09-18, 21:03

Naava wrote:So... you have two forms, where the present tense of one form is identical with the past tense of the other form. Also, the past tense of käskima is identical with the conditional of Finnish käskeä. Time to twist my brain sideways! :partyhat: This is why I both love and hate learning Estonian.

How does the conditional work, then? Käsiksin & käseksin or what?

Yes, käsiksin and käseksin.
I didn't know of the käskma forms until seeing Ainurakne's post; even the Eesti keele süntesaator site doesn't know its conjugated forms. But I did find them here: http://www.digar.ee/archiving/ru/download/136434 (from 1926 "Keeleuuendus")... :!:
So it confirms Ainurakne's käske imperative (Ainurakne put :?: next to it). Doesn't mention the past tense form käsin for käskma though, only käsksin.

It says:
Mõlemad vormid lubatavad: (both forms are permitted)
käsin, käskima, käskinud, käskisin, käskida, käskige
käsen, käskma, käsknud, käsksin, kästa, käske

Vokaal kadu on võimalik ainult e-tüvelisest käskma (käsen).

And EKSS gives these forms for käskma:
kästa, käsen, käsksin, käskis, käsku, käskev, käsknud, kästakse, kästud
Learning is a treasure that follows its owner everywhere. El aprendizaje es un tesoro que sigue a su dueño por todas partes. Õpitu on aare, mis saadab oma omanikku kõikjal. Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt. L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout. Txoj kev kawm yog cov khoom muaj nqis, uas raws nws tus tswv qhov txhia chaw. Op'minõ om aarõq, miä saat uma umanikku egäl puul.

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Re: aitama

Postby Naava » 2017-09-18, 21:20

Linguaphile wrote:Vokaal kadu on võimalik ainult e-tüvelisest käskma (käsen).

Is there any reason why?

kästa, käsen, käsksin, käskis, käsku, käskev, käsknud, kästakse, kästud

Ok what forms are käsku, kästakse and kästud? I don't recognize these (or I'm not sure if they are what I think they are).
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Re: aitama

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-09-18, 22:38

Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Vokaal kadu on võimalik ainult e-tüvelisest käskma (käsen).

Is there any reason why?

Probably, but I don't know what it is.... :twisted:
Seriously, I think it's just the way it ended up. My guess is it's just one of those things without an explanation. Not sure though!

Naava wrote:
kästa, käsen, käsksin, käskis, käsku, käskev, käsknud, kästakse, kästud

Ok what forms are käsku, kästakse and kästud? I don't recognize these (or I'm not sure if they are what I think they are).

käsku = third person imperative (jussive?) form of käskma. The equivalent for the verb käskima is käskigu.
kästakse = present impersonal form. Now to really mess with your mind, I have to tell you that I believe this form is the same for both käskma and käskima.
kästud = -tud participle, i.e. used for forming present perfect, past perfect, etc. Again, it's the same for both verbs. :?:

Now I have to say that I'm a little out of my element here but giving it a try. I don't use käskima much and hadn't heard käskma... or hadn't caught on to how it differed from käskima... until this thread. I'm just answering based on what I found online to try to learn it myself. I think it's the middle of the night now in Estonia (1:30am) but maybe Ainurakne can explain better or correct me later when it's a more reasonable hour over there. :)
Learning is a treasure that follows its owner everywhere. El aprendizaje es un tesoro que sigue a su dueño por todas partes. Õpitu on aare, mis saadab oma omanikku kõikjal. Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt. L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout. Txoj kev kawm yog cov khoom muaj nqis, uas raws nws tus tswv qhov txhia chaw. Op'minõ om aarõq, miä saat uma umanikku egäl puul.

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Re: aitama

Postby ainurakne » 2017-09-19, 8:37

käsku = käskeköön & jussive mood
kästakse = käsketään
kästud = käsketty

Linguaphile wrote:kästakse = present impersonal form.
:hmm: I thought it was called passive.

Linguaphile wrote:kästakse = present impersonal form. Now to really mess with your mind, I have to tell you that I believe this form is the same for both käskma and käskima.
kästud = -tud participle, i.e. used for forming present perfect, past perfect, etc. Again, it's the same for both verbs. :?:
Yes, I think these are the same for both verbs.

But probably because the two parallel forms are so fused together. Looking at käskima/käskida, I would say that the respective forms should be something like käsitakse (or käskitakse) and käsitud (or käskitud) - I can't decide which is correct, the parallel verb form is interfering too much. :roll:
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Re: aitama

Postby ainurakne » 2017-09-19, 9:07

Naava wrote:How does the conditional work, then? Käsiksin & käseksin or what?
I was always wondering (well, not always, only after I started learning Finnish) why is Estonian conditional -ksi and Finnish conditional -isi. Until I saw Proto-Finnic conjugation tables. :D

Let's take *tuldak, for example. It has two parallel conditional forms: *tulekci- and *tulici-. The first one is based on the present stem *tulek and the second one is based on the past stem *tuli, but both have the same conditional suffix -ci- appended to them.

:hmm: I wonder if they were once present and past conditional, or just parallel conditional forms that were used in different areas like different dialects.


:hmm: I'm also wondering, if this present tense -k was also once in the first and second person singular, something like *tulekmi(k) (for tulen) and *tulekti(k) (for tulet). At least it would give a nice symmetry for the singular - dual - plural triplet:
*tulekmi(k) - *tulekmek - *tulekmak
*tulekti(k) - *tulektek - *tulektak
:D

I once noticed from somewhere that the first person singular marker could have been -m (tulem) instead of -n (tulen), and before ti syllables became si, sinä was tinä. So, it would make sense that the personal pronouns (or their fragments) mi and ti were appended to the verbs and thus became personal markers, just like in case of mek/mak and tek/tak for dual/plural. And as the word-final -i seem to show the tendency to often disappear over time, this could have triggered the change into the current form.
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Re: aitama

Postby Naava » 2017-09-19, 9:49

Thanks to both of you! :)

Linguaphile wrote:Now I have to say that I'm a little out of my element here but giving it a try.

That's my motto. :mrgreen:

ainurakne wrote: :hmm: I wonder if they were once present and past conditional, or just parallel conditional forms that were used in different areas like different dialects.


:hmm: I'm also wondering, if this present tense -k was also once in the first and second person singular, something like *tulekmi(k) (for tulen) and *tulekti(k) (for tulet). At least it would give a nice symmetry for the singular - dual - plural triplet:
*tulekmi(k) - *tulekmek - *tulekmak
*tulekti(k) - *tulektek - *tulektak
:D

I can check my notes about the morphology when I'm home again. I have a lecture starting in an hour, so this needs to wait till evening.
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Re: aitama

Postby kloie » 2017-09-22, 1:19

What is maa pealt and maa seest?
Kas nad leidsid selle kivi maa pealt voi maa seest?!

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Re: aitama

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-09-22, 4:56

kloie wrote:What is maa pealt and maa seest?
Kas nad leidsid selle kivi maa pealt või maa seest?

Literally: Did they find this stone from on the earth/land or from inside the earth/land?
maa pealt = from on the earth/land, from on top the earth/land, from the surface of the earth/land
maa seest = from in the earth/land, from within the earth/land, from inside the earth/land
In more natural-sounding English it would probably be something more like "Did they find this stone on the ground or buried (underground)?"
I think it should also be correct to leave out the word "maa" the second time; it's understood that we're still talking about the land (maa) the second time even if the word isn't repeated:
Kas nad leidsid selle kivi maa pealt või seest?
"Did they find this stone on or under the ground?"
Learning is a treasure that follows its owner everywhere. El aprendizaje es un tesoro que sigue a su dueño por todas partes. Õpitu on aare, mis saadab oma omanikku kõikjal. Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt. L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout. Txoj kev kawm yog cov khoom muaj nqis, uas raws nws tus tswv qhov txhia chaw. Op'minõ om aarõq, miä saat uma umanikku egäl puul.

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Re: aitama

Postby kloie » 2017-09-25, 14:00

I'm reading from the colloquial Estonian book,and I see this sentence.
Ma helistan koju,aga enne ma ootan veel natuke.
What does it mean?

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Re: aitama

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-09-25, 15:13

kloie wrote:I'm reading from the colloquial Estonian book,and I see this sentence.
Ma helistan koju,aga enne ma ootan veel natuke.
What does it mean?

I'll call home, but first I'll wait a bit longer.
Literally: I call home, but before I wait yet a little.
Learning is a treasure that follows its owner everywhere. El aprendizaje es un tesoro que sigue a su dueño por todas partes. Õpitu on aare, mis saadab oma omanikku kõikjal. Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt. L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout. Txoj kev kawm yog cov khoom muaj nqis, uas raws nws tus tswv qhov txhia chaw. Op'minõ om aarõq, miä saat uma umanikku egäl puul.


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