Kloie's thread for questions

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kloie
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Kloie's thread for questions

Postby kloie » 2017-09-09, 22:50

m

Minu ode oskab hasti suua (tegema,teha).
My sister knows how to eat well.
Which verb should it be teha?
Last edited by Salajane on 2018-02-15, 7:23, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Changed the name of the tread

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Re: tegema or teha

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-09-09, 23:44

kloie wrote:m
Minu ode oskab hasti suua (tegema,teha).
My sister knows how to eat well.
Which verb should it be teha?


Tere Kloie!
Jah, "teha" on õige: Minu õde oskab hästi süüa teha.
Aga see lause tähendab "my sister knows how to cook well", sest ühendtegusõna süüa tegema / süüa teha tähendab "to cook, to prepare food, to make food" (= süüa valmistada), mitte "to eat".
"My sister knows how to eat well" oleks Minu õde oskab hästi süüa või Minu õde oskab tervislikult süüa.

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isal oli

Postby kloie » 2017-09-10, 4:59



Does this mean, my dad had a hard time finding work.!
Isal oli raske tood leidma or leida.

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Re: isal oli

Postby ainurakne » 2017-09-10, 7:41

kloie wrote:Does this mean, my dad had a hard time finding work.!
Yes (or It was hard for my dad to find work / a job)!

Isal oli raske tööd leida.

leida (the so called da-infinitive) is kind of like a regular infinitive, so it's usage should be relatively similar to the infinitive in English language.

leidma (the so called ma-infinitive and the dictionary form of a verb) is a bit trickier. It could be:
- kind of like a "relative future" or "moving into a state of doing something" (illative form of the verb, forming a triplet with its inessive leidmas and elative leidmast counterparts);
- an instructive form of the verb, used together with certain other verbs;

(in Estonian sometimes ma-infinitive is used in place where you would expect a regular infinitive in English)
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Re: isal oli

Postby kloie » 2017-09-10, 11:41

Thank you, I'm slowly trying to learn Estonian. And the -Ma and Da verbs are difficult finding out when to use them.

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pean

Postby kloie » 2017-09-10, 13:21

What does Ma pean korraks ara minema.,and ma armastan vihmas edasi tagasi hupata mean?

There is no other context, just 2 sentences that I found.

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Re: pean

Postby Salajane » 2017-09-10, 14:44

Ma pean korraks ära minema. - I should/have to go away for a while.

Ma armastan vihmas edasi-tagasi hüpata. - I love jumping back and forth in the rain.
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suitsetama

Postby kloie » 2017-09-10, 15:53

Suitsetama or suitsetada on vaga kahjulik.
Smoking is very harmful.
Which verb should I use?

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Re: isal oli

Postby ainurakne » 2017-09-10, 16:24

You are welcome!

But maybe you should create a single thread for all your questions. Or ask your questions in the general thread of questions about Estonian.
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Re: pean

Postby ainurakne » 2017-09-10, 16:33

The verb "pidama" in this context is more like the model verb must:
Ma pean korraks ära minema. = I must go away for a moment
(or I have to go away for a moment)

I should go away... would be Ma peaksin korraks ära minema.

P.S: the verb pidama (when it means must) is one of such verbs that requires the secondary verb to use ma-infinitive: pean minema, pead tulema, peab olema, pidime tegema, etc...

---

Ma armastan vihmas edasi-tagasi hüpata. = I love to jump forth-back in the rain

P.S: to jump - hence the usage of da-infinitive hüpata.
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Re: suitsetama

Postby ainurakne » 2017-09-10, 16:38

Suitsetada on väga kahjulik.

... because the meaning is actually "To smoke is very harmful." ~ "It is very harmful to smoke."

---

"Smoking is very harmful." would be:
Suitsetamine on väga kahjulik.

suitsetamine (noun) - action name, derived from the verb suitsetama.
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Re: suitsetama

Postby kloie » 2017-09-10, 17:22

I hope,that I could ask another question,without opening a new post.
Lapsed hakkavad lauda (katma, Katta.
The kids begin to ...?

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Re: suitsetama

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-09-10, 17:59

kloie wrote:I hope,that I could ask another question,without opening a new post.
Lapsed hakkavad lauda (katma, Katta.
The kids begin to ...?

Lapsed hakkavad lauda katma. The children begin to set the table. or The children are going to set the table.

Explanations:
1. The verb hakkama is another one (like pidama) which always requires the use of the ma-infinitive rather than the da-infinitive.
2. Hakkama does mean "begin," as you said, but it's also often used to indicate something that will happen in the near future, the way we use "going to" in English. So, it is correct to translate it either as "begin to" or as "going to," depending on the context.

So, for example, the phrase Hakkame minema more often means "let's get going!" rather than "we're beginning to go." For some reason, memorizing this phrase hakkame minema has helped me to always remember that the verb hakkama requires the ma-infinitive. Maybe that will help you as well?

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aitama

Postby kloie » 2017-09-10, 19:03

Isa on alati valmis mind aitama, aidata.
Should it be aidata? And does it mean my dad is always game when it comes to helping me / my dad is always willing to help me.

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Re: suitsetama

Postby ainurakne » 2017-09-10, 19:07

Differently from pidama (which I think requires the secondary verb to use the "instructive" ma-form, even though the difference is not visible in modern Estonian), hakkama is a pure example of requiring "going into the state of doing something" ma-form (or relative future).

You use ma-infinitive when you:
- start doing something: hakkan minema, hakkan jooksma, hakkan lugema;
- go somewhere where you do something, get into the position for doing something: lähen jooksma, lähen sööma, lähen magama;
- cause something to happen, make someone do something: panen käima, ajan minema, sunnin jooksma, panen lugema;

But ma-infinitive could also stand alone:
Sööma! - Come to eat! Go to eat! Start eating! (literally: Into the state of eating!)
Magama! - Go to sleep! (literally: Into the state of sleeping!)

kloie wrote:I hope,that I could ask another question,without opening a new post.
I think you can also change the title of this thread if you edit your first post, in case you would like to do so.

Linguaphile wrote:So, for example, the phrase Hakkame minema more often means "let's get going!" rather than "we're beginning to go."
I think this is because in colloquial language, the regular we-form of the indicative mood is often used in place of the we-form of the imperative mood. Imperative mood for 1st person plural ("Hakakem minema!") is overly poetic.
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Re: aitama

Postby ainurakne » 2017-09-10, 19:23

Isa on alati valmis mind aitama.
And yes, your translation is correct.

:hmm: But I'm afraid I can't explain the exact reasons why ma-infinitive is used here. Maybe it could be perceived as relative future. Or "on valmis aitama" could be translated as 'is ready to get into the state of helping'.
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Re: aitama

Postby kloie » 2017-09-10, 19:31

How about mul tuleb see Kiri lõpetama,lõpetada.?
What does it mean? And I think it should be lõpetada because it's impersonal.

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Re: aitama

Postby ainurakne » 2017-09-10, 20:10

Mul tuleb see kiri lõpetada. ~ Mul on vaja see kiri lõpetada. ~ Ma pean selle kirja lõpetama.
I need to finish this letter, I have to finish this letter
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Re: aitama

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-09-10, 20:12

ainurakne wrote:Isa on alati valmis mind aitama.
And yes, your translation is correct.

:hmm: But I'm afraid I can't explain the exact reasons why ma-infinitive is used here. Maybe it could be perceived as relative future. Or "on valmis aitama" could be translated as 'is ready to get into the state of helping'.

"Dad is always ready to help me" would be another way to say it (not that the other translations are incorrect - they're fine). To me, in English "Dad is always ready to help" and "Dad is always willing to help" can be synonyms (at least in certain contexts) and both mean "isa on alati valmis aitama."

Usually texts or other resources for "Estonian as a foreign language" don't get into the specific reasons for the use of the ma-form (or the various types of ma-forms), at least at beginning levels, and simply give a list of the verbs and expressions that require the ma-form. That's why I put "hakkama" together with "pidama" in my earlier post. For speakers of other languages, who haven't grown up hearing the Estonian words used often, this seems to be the easiest way to learn when to use the ma-form.
Based on the questions you (Kloie) have posted here recently, it seems like you are going through a collection of exercises based on such a list. So maybe the list of verbs/expressions that require the ma-form would help you! "On valmis" is one of the ma-form expressions, along with a few others that use a similar construction:
valmis olema
harjunud olema
nõus olema
osav olema
sunnitud olema


List of common verbs that require the ma-form when used with a second verb:
hakkama
istuma
jooksma
jätma
jääma
kutsuma
minema
panema
pidama
saatma
sõitma
tulema (*as a verb of motion)
viima
õppima
õpetama

Nearly everything else requires the da-form, including a few expressions that sound similar to those listed above (on tarvis, on vaja, etc) and the verb "tulema" when it is NOT used as a verb of motion, as in your other question here:
kloie wrote:How about mul tuleb see Kiri lõpetama,lõpetada.?
What does it mean? And I think it should be lõpetada because it's impersonal.

Yes, mul tuleb see kiri lõpetada, since "tulema" here is not referring to motion ("to come") but rather to need (similar to saying "mul on vaja") - "I have to finish this letter," "It's necessary for me to finish this letter."

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Re: aitama

Postby kloie » 2017-09-10, 20:23

Ok! What are the verbs that require the (da) form?


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