Untranslatable words / tõlkimatuid sõnu

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Re: Untranslatable words / tõlkimatuid sõnu

Postby ainurakne » 2018-03-24, 6:56

I have always had the impression, that the verb viitsima in negative sentences is the main thing. And its meaning in affirmative sentences is just the opposite / everything else - if the conditions of the negative meaning do not apply.

"ma ei viitsi ..." could be I'm too tired to, mentally/physically too exhausted to, not in a good enough condition to or just currently feeling too lazy to do something.
But it could be even more "negative", for example when responding to suggestions to do something, it may also mean that the action suggested by another person may not be good enough for you or it may be even a waste of time in your eyes.

I would even go as far as saying that depending on the context, your mood and the way you say it, your sentence
"[M]a ei viitsi sinuga vaielda." could be also translated as "I've had it up to here with your arguing."


oskama - to know how to, to have an ability to :?:
(oskus - learned skill, learned ability, know-how)

For example "oskan lugeda", "oskan ujuda", "oskan eesti keelt (rääkida)" ...
But could be also "oskan kuhugi minna", "oskan aidata" ...
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Re: Untranslatable words / tõlkimatuid sõnu

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-03-24, 7:22

ainurakne wrote:I would even go as far as saying that depending on the context, your mood and the way you say it, your sentence
"[M]a ei viitsi sinuga vaielda." could be also translated as "I've had it up to here with your arguing."

Yeah, well, now that you mention it, a while back Linguoboy and I got into a bit of an argument on the literature forum about the frequency of compound words in Estonian (if I remember correctly, he said my claim that Estonian uses compounds more freely than English was "nonsense" and said my arguments sounded like those made by an "average Joe with no linguistics background" or something like that)... so, actually... yep. :twisted: All in good fun though... I hope! We have different perspectives, it's fine to disagree and I always learn something from it (both from what the other person says, and from trying to find better ways to express my own thoughts).

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Re: Untranslatable words / tõlkimatuid sõnu

Postby Naava » 2018-03-24, 8:17

ainurakne wrote:I have always had the impression, that the verb viitsima in negative sentences is the main thing

I agree.

ainurakne wrote:I would even go as far as saying that depending on the context, your mood and the way you say it, your sentence
"[M]a ei viitsi sinuga vaielda." could be also translated as "I've had it up to here with your arguing."

When I read that sentence, I thought it sounded kinda rude but I wasn't sure if it's just me. :D Or at least ruder than the English translation.

Do you think there's a difference between "ma ei viitsi sinuga vaielda" and "ma ei viitsi vaielda"? Imo the first one sounds like the reason why I don't want to argue is you, that you're not worth it, while the second one is more like "I don't want to argue". Am I wrong? :hmm:

ainurakne wrote:oskama - to know how to, to have an ability to
(oskus - learned skill, learned ability, know-how)

Storytime! We had a lot of grammar tests and lessons and exercises etc during the first year of uni, and one of the recurring phrases was "I can English". I couldn't understand why anyone would say that until I realised that it's a somewhat direct translation of "ma oskan inglise keelt". :lol:

Has anyone mentioned jaksama yet?

---------

Out of curiosity, I tried to translate the küljes-sentences into Finnish because we don't use "kyljessä" as much as Estonian uses "küljes". I noticed that there's always inessive when Estonian has küljes:

Vanal pintsakul ei ole enam nööpe küljes. - Vanhassa takissa ei ole nappeja.
Puudel püsisid kaua lehed küljes. - Lehdet pysyivät puissa pitkään.
Põõsal on valged marjad küljes. - Pensaassa on valkoisia marjoja.

There were only two exceptions:
1. "Majade küljes" could be translated as "talojen seinässä" but I don't think "talojen kyljessä" sounds bad either. (Btw, isn't majade plural? Linguaphile has used singular in English but I don't know if it was a typo or if I'm wrong. :D)

2. "Auto auto küljes kinni" is a bit different: I'd say "autot vieri vieressä". Well, that's inessive, too, but it's more like a fixed expression or something. I think you could also say "autot kylki kyljessä", though.

I don't know if anyone else finds that interesting but I did. :D

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Re: Untranslatable words / tõlkimatuid sõnu

Postby ainurakne » 2018-03-24, 12:23

Naava wrote:When I read that sentence, I thought it sounded kinda rude but I wasn't sure if it's just me. :D Or at least ruder than the English translation.
Yes! I would choose very carefully to whom I would say "ma ei viitsi ...". I think it's okay in casual conversations and with people you know, though.

Naava wrote:Do you think there's a difference between "ma ei viitsi sinuga vaielda" and "ma ei viitsi vaielda"? Imo the first one sounds like the reason why I don't want to argue is you, that you're not worth it, while the second one is more like "I don't want to argue". Am I wrong? :hmm:
Kind of. When you put it like that, I can sense that difference between them. But I think it's pretty usual to use "sinuga" without overemphasizing the other person in this context.

When stating that the other person is the reason of not wanting to argue, I would rather move the pronoun to the beginning of the sentence: "sinuga ma ei viitsi vaielda" (in this case you can't even use unemphasized "suga").
Or "sinuga ma küll vaielda ei viitsi".

Naava wrote:Storytime! We had a lot of grammar tests and lessons and exercises etc during the first year of uni, and one of the recurring phrases was "I can English". I couldn't understand why anyone would say that until I realised that it's a somewhat direct translation of "ma oskan inglise keelt". :lol:
Haha... but there's solid logic in that. :lol:

Naava wrote:Has anyone mentioned jaksama yet?
I think not yet. This should have pretty much the same meanings as listed in Wiktionary under the Finnish jaksaa.

And then there's also jõudma, which can be used as a synonym to jaksama + pretty much the same meanings as Finnish joutaa.


Naava wrote:Out of curiosity, I tried to translate the küljes-sentences into Finnish because we don't use "kyljessä" as much as Estonian uses "küljes". I noticed that there's always inessive when Estonian has küljes:
That's interesting indeed. I guess the two languages are more similar than they often seem.

Naava wrote:Btw, isn't majade plural?
Yes, it's plural.

Naava wrote:"Auto auto küljes kinni" is a bit different: I'd say "autot vieri vieressä". Well, that's inessive, too, but it's more like a fixed expression or something. I think you could also say "autot kylki kyljessä", though.
In Estonian you can also say "autod külg küljes kinni". And the equivalent for "vieri vieressä" could be maybe "külg külje kõrval", or "külg külje vastas" if they are really tightly packed.
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Re: Untranslatable words / tõlkimatuid sõnu

Postby linguoboy » 2018-03-24, 14:10

Linguaphile wrote:(if I remember correctly, he said my claim that Estonian uses compounds more freely than English was "nonsense" and said my arguments sounded like those made by an "average Joe with no linguistics background" or something like that)

ProTip: All the words I wrote are still there, so you don't have to rely on your memory alone. In context, what I said was:
linguoboy wrote:Are you seriously not recognising the fact that not all grammatically compound words in English are written as single orthographic words? I expect that kind of error from the average Joe; I don't expect it from someone with any sort of background in linguistics.

I won't say we ever came to any kind of agreement on this, but after you looked at the literature on English compounding, your understanding did shift closer to mine.

I understand that the point of this thread is just to point up some contrasts between how certain things are expressed in each language (and I'm finding that discussion very interesting), but I still bristle at the suggestion that two words in different language ever represent a "true match". The closest you can come to that is with specialised technical terms (and even then there may be sociolectal issues). Otherwise there are always instances where one will not be an appropriate translation for the other. How many usages of "come" or "suggest" can you think of which can't be found for their closest respective Estonian equivalents?
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Re: Untranslatable words / tõlkimatuid sõnu

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-03-24, 16:51

linguoboy wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:(if I remember correctly, he said my claim that Estonian uses compounds more freely than English was "nonsense" and said my arguments sounded like those made by an "average Joe with no linguistics background" or something like that)

ProTip: All the words I wrote are still there, so you don't have to rely on your memory alone. In context, what I said was:
linguoboy wrote:Are you seriously not recognising the fact that not all grammatically compound words in English are written as single orthographic words? I expect that kind of error from the average Joe; I don't expect it from someone with any sort of background in linguistics.

I won't say we ever came to any kind of agreement on this, but after you looked at the literature on English compounding, your understanding did shift closer to mine.

On the point of your definition of compound words in English, I suppose so, but not on this point:
Linguaphile wrote:
vijayjohn wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Except that in Estonian, compound words are often created ad hoc and won't be found in any dictionary, almost the same way other languages might use circumlocution or descriptions.

I know English is not Estonian, but they are in English, too. How many dictionaries contain "abso-bloody-lutely," "abso-bloody-exactly," or any one of various Twitter hashtags that exist these days?

The difference is that those English words (or hashtags!) sound contrived and we don't really consider them "real words," or when we do, the older generation is rolling their eyes about it. The compounds created in Estonian sound natural and no different from any other word (or so native speakers tell me). I doubt you could find anyone who would tell you that "abso-bloody-lutely" is formed in a linguistically acceptable way for formal speech, for example. In English it's considered a type of slang, but in Estonian it's just the way the language works.

To which you responded:
linguoboy wrote:Sorry, but this is all nonsense.

First of all, there's nothing unique about Estonian compounding. English forms nonce compounds at least as freely as Estonian does.


But back to viitisima:
ainurakne wrote:I have always had the impression, that the verb viitsima in negative sentences is the main thing
Yes!

Naava wrote:
ainurakne wrote:I would even go as far as saying that depending on the context, your mood and the way you say it, your sentence
"[M]a ei viitsi sinuga vaielda." could be also translated as "I've had it up to here with your arguing."

When I read that sentence, I thought it sounded kinda rude but I wasn't sure if it's just me. :D Or at least ruder than the English translation.
Do you think there's a difference between "ma ei viitsi sinuga vaielda" and "ma ei viitsi vaielda"?
Imo the first one sounds like the reason why I don't want to argue is you, that you're not worth it, while the second one is more like "I don't want to argue".

I was aware of it sounding a bit rude, although not as far as you took it - I wasn't saying "your not worth it" or anything like that, just "I don't want to argue with you" (or, as Ainurakne posted early, "I've had it up to here with your arguing"). But I used that construction in part to make a joke (maybe in too poor taste) by using the word viitsima in my response, since it is the word we were discussing and that's one of the ways it is used. I don't feel that the inclusion of sinuga makes it more personal or more rude (unless sinuga is moved to the beginning to emphasize the person, but I didn't do that). And because of Linguoboy's comments that he and I quoted above, I felt that my way of saying that wasn't that different from the way he had responded to me in the past, so I didn't feel too inhibited doing so myself. (But it's also why I felt the need to explain about the other thread, so you'd understand that my response didn't only come from his few short posts on this forum. That would have been incredibly rude of me.) :doggy: But do we know each other from other Unilang forums already....

Naava wrote:Linguaphile has used singular in English but I don't know if it was a typo or if I'm wrong. :D)

Typo. Thanks for catching it.

linguoboy wrote:I understand that the point of this thread is just to point up some contrasts between how certain things are expressed in each language (and I'm finding that discussion very interesting), but I still bristle at the suggestion that two words in different language ever represent a "true match". The closest you can come to that is with specialised technical terms (and even then there may be sociolectal issues). Otherwise there are always instances where one will not be an appropriate translation for the other. How many usages of "come" or "suggest" can you think of which can't be found for their closest respective Estonian equivalents?

Still, viitsima is a bit different because a word like "come" in English is considered polysemous (a multiple-meaning word) and if you look it up in a dictionary, even in English it will list several meanings for it. It's natural that each meaning of a word will have its own translation. But viitsima isn't a multiple-meaning word and yet its translations vary in English quite a bit - not just different "shades of meaning" but completely different meanings. That's what makes viitsima different: there is no "agreed-upon" translation for it nor any real equivalent (what we're calling in this thread "untranslatable words"). Any translation is a work-around. For example, if I use the word "fancy" to translate it, that may work sometimes, but technically that's more like a translation of Estonian "meeldima" (not "viitsima"). It's not really the same thing, it's just the best we can do in English.

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Re: Untranslatable words / tõlkimatuid sõnu

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-03-24, 18:29

linguoboy wrote:I understand that the point of this thread is just to point up some contrasts between how certain things are expressed in each language (and I'm finding that discussion very interesting), but I still bristle at the suggestion that two words in different language ever represent a "true match". The closest you can come to that is with specialised technical terms (and even then there may be sociolectal issues). Otherwise there are always instances where one will not be an appropriate translation for the other. How many usages of "come" or "suggest" can you think of which can't be found for their closest respective Estonian equivalents?

The difference between a word like "come" and a word like "viitsima" is that "come" is considered a multiple-meaning word. If you look it up in a dictionary in English, it will list those multiple meanings, and each of them is likely to have a different translation in Estonian or in any other language, because they are different meanings.

From Oxford online (translations added by me):
come VERB (came)
1 (no object, usually with adverbial of direction) Move or travel towards or into a place thought of as near or familiar to the speaker. tulema
1.1 Arrive at a specified place. saabuma
1.2 (of a thing) reach or extend to a specified point. jõudma
1.3 (be coming) Approach. tulema
1.4 Travel in order to be with a specified person, to do a specified thing, or to be present at an event. tulema
1.5 (with present participle) Join someone in participating in a specified activity or course of action.kaasa tulema
1.6 (come along/on) Make progress; develop. arenema
1.7i (imperative) Said to someone when correcting or reassuring someone. nonoh
2 (no object) Occur; happen; take place. juhtuma
2.1 Be heard, perceived, or experienced. kuulama, tundma
2.2 (with adverbial, of a quality) become apparent or noticeable through actions or performance. näitama
2.3 (come across" or British "over" or US "off ) appear or sound in a specified way; give a specified impression. muljet jätma
2.4 (of a thought or memory) enter one's mind. meelde tulema
3 (no object, with complement) Take or occupy a specified position in space, order, or priority. ette jõudma
3.1 Achieve a specified place in a race or contest. finišeerima
4 (no object, with complement) Pass into a specified state, especially one of separation or disunion.
4.1 (come to/into) Reach or be brought to a specified situation or result. saama
4.2 (with infinitive) Eventually reach a certain condition or state of mind. jõudma
5 (no object, with adverbial) Be sold, available, or found in a specified form. saadaval olema
6 (informal, no object) Have an orgasm. orgasmi saama

Similarly, the EKSS dictionary lists 15 definitions for tulema, likewise with "sub-meanings" marked as a, b, c, and so on. Many overlap very closely with the English definitions above. (I didn't bother with the translations here / ei viitsinud):
1. (eesmärgile osutamata:) lähenedes liikuma. a. (inimese v. looma kohta). b. (sõiduki vm. liikuva objekti kohta2. eesmärgipäraselt lähenedes kuhugi (v. kusagilt) liikuma. a. (seoses kohaga). b. (seoses tegevusega).
3. nähtavale ilmuma, nähtavaks saama, esile ilmuma.
4. kostma, kuulda olema, kuuldavaks saama. . ||(laulu, jutu kohta).
5. (seoses seisundi, oleku v. olukorra kujunemise ja muutumisega). a. (elusolendiga toimuvate füüsiliste, füsioloogiliste, psüühiliste jm. protsesside kohta). b. (elutute objektide, nähtuste vms. kohta).
6. (hrl. ajaliselt:) saabuma, pärale v. kätte jõudma. | PILTL. Nüüd on tulnud minu tund teile tasuda. Paistab, et järg on meie kätte tulnud. Taat arvas, et tema (viimne) tunnike on tulnud 'hakkab surema'. || (tervitusväljendis saabunud. || PILTL (lapse sünni kohta).
7. tekkima, ilmuma, sugenema, sündima. PILTL (kusagilt pärinemise, lähtumise kohta).
8. ‹hrl. 3. pöördes› saama (6. täh.), kujunema. a. osutab mingile saavutusele, tulemusele. b. (seoses omadusega).
9. juhtuma, toimuma, aset leidma.
10. tingitud olema, johtuma, tulenema.
11. (tee, jõe jne. kohta:) kulgema.
12. ‹hrl. ma-infinitiivis› kusagilt ära, mujale siirduma, (mõnikord ainult öeldisverbi tugevdavalt:) ära.
13. ‹üksnes 3. isikus da-infinitiiviga› vaja olema, kohustatud v. sunnitud olema, pidama.
14. ‹ka eitavalt› esineb püsiühendeis, mis väljendavad kinnitust, möönmist.
15. osutab millelegi tulevikus toimuvale v. osaks langevale, sageli täh. ‘saab olema’.

These are multiple-meaning words with different translations for each meaning, which is demonstrated by their many uses listed in the dictionary, and by the different translations for each.
But viitsima isn't a multiple-meaning word in that sense.
The EKSS dictionary gives a single meaning for viitsima:
tahtmist omama, vaevaks võtma, vaevuma, hoolima (midagi teha)

Literal translation of the definition: to have a desire, to take the trouble, to take the trouble, to care (to do something).
This is considered a single meaning in Estonian (this is why it is a single listing rather than a numbered list of meanings like the dictionary had for tulema). And yet various dictionaries suggest all of the following translations in English (all of which seem to have a slightly different meaning from viitsima):

To have a mind to do, to feel inclined to do
To care to do
To feel like doing
To take the trouble to do, to bother to, to bother with
(to which Linguoboy added: to fancy)

In the negative:
To be loath to
To not care to do
To have no stomach for doing
Can't be bothered, to be too lazy for
To not give a damn about
To be unwilling to

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Re: Untranslatable words / tõlkimatuid sõnu

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-03-25, 19:41

ainurakne wrote:oskama - to know how to, to have an ability to
(oskus - learned skill, learned ability, know-how)

For example "oskan lugeda", "oskan ujuda", "oskan eesti keelt (rääkida)" ...
But could be also "oskan kuhugi minna", "oskan aidata" ...

I know how to get somewhere (i.e., oskan sinna minna: I know how to get there) and I can help :?:

Your oskama example makes me also think of the different usages of sõitma, which is basically "to move by means other than walking" (vehicle or animal): Sõidab bussiga (ta istub ja vaatab aknast) vs. Sõidab kiiresti (tema ise on autojuht). When I first learned it, it was difficult to get a grasp on the various usages of ride, drive, travel, fly, etc., especially since there are other words that translate more directly (reisima, lendama, juhtima, minema) and I tended to want to use those instead.

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Re: Untranslatable words / tõlkimatuid sõnu

Postby ainurakne » 2018-03-26, 9:52

Linguaphile wrote:... I can help :?:
I guess, this would be the best translation. Although oskan aidata is not exactly the same as võin aidata or saan aidata.

Linguaphile wrote:Your oskama example makes me also think of the different usages of sõitma, which is basically "to move by means other than walking" ...
Yes, this is a word whose existence I often miss in English.


Another word that I think doesn't have an exact equivalent in English, is kahjurõõm. Although, this is probably a direct translation from German Schadenfreude:
the experience of pleasure, joy, or self-satisfaction that comes from learning of or witnessing the troubles, failures, or humiliation of another


But not having it in English is weird, since kahjurõõm on ju kõige suurem rõõm. :lol:
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Re: Untranslatable words / tõlkimatuid sõnu

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-03-26, 13:56

ainurakne wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:... I can help :?:
I guess, this would be the best translation. Although oskan aidata is not exactly the same as võin aidata or saan aidata.

Maybe "I'm able to help." :?: To me oskan aidata has more of an implication that "I know what I'm doing, you're in good hands with my help," but I don't know if that's right. It makes me think of advertisements for professional services (Oskame aidata! We know what we're doing and we can help you!) or eager girl scouts who just learned a new skill (Let me start a fire for you! Oskan aidata!) but honestly, I can't remember if I've heard it used that way, or I'm just making that up in my head. :whistle:

ainurakne wrote:Another word that I think doesn't have an exact equivalent in English, is kahjurõõm. Although, this is probably a direct translation from German Schadenfreude:
the experience of pleasure, joy, or self-satisfaction that comes from learning of or witnessing the troubles, failures, or humiliation of another


But not having it in English is weird, since kahjurõõm on ju kõige suurem rõõm. :lol:

Yeah, we borrowed it from German too, the difference is that we just kept it as schadenfreude. All we did is take away the capital letter in English, while Estonian translated the parts. :D Anyway, you can use schadenfreude in English too. (By the way, my German teacher really loved that word. LOL!)

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Re: Untranslatable words / tõlkimatuid sõnu

Postby ainurakne » 2018-03-27, 9:03

Linguaphile wrote:Maybe "I'm able to help." :?: To me oskan aidata has more of an implication that "I know what I'm doing, you're in good hands with my help," but I don't know if that's right.
I guess this is pretty much it.

Either I have experience with dealing this (or similar) problem, or this is something that I'm certain I would be able to figure out along the way.

Linguaphile wrote:Yeah, we borrowed it from German too, the difference is that we just kept it as schadenfreude. All we did is take away the capital letter in English, while Estonian translated the parts. :D Anyway, you can use schadenfreude in English too.
I see. Is it a common word?
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Re: Untranslatable words / tõlkimatuid sõnu

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-03-27, 13:11

ainurakne wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Yeah, we borrowed it from German too, the difference is that we just kept it as schadenfreude. All we did is take away the capital letter in English, while Estonian translated the parts. :D Anyway, you can use schadenfreude in English too.
I see. Is it a common word?

Well, yes and no. I don't hear people say it often, probably because it describes such a specific situation. But I believe it is widely understood.

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Re: Untranslatable words / tõlkimatuid sõnu

Postby Salajane » 2018-03-29, 7:56

ainurakne wrote: I guess, this would be the best translation. Although oskan aidata is not exactly the same as võin aidata or saan aidata.

In Ukrainian:
saan aidata - можу допомогти
oskan aidata - вмію допомогти

"Вміти" is often used the same way as in Estonian.

Ma oskan ujuda. - Я вмію плавати.

However, we do not use it when we speak about knowing languages. In this case, we use the verb "знати":

Ma oskan eesti keelt. - Я знаю естонську мову. (literally: Ma tean eesti keelt).

Such a verb exists in many Slavic languages.

Also, you can express this in Spanish using the verb "saber" (to know):

Ma oskan ujuda. - Yo sé nadar.
Ma saan ujuda. - Yo puedo nadar.
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Re: Untranslatable words / tõlkimatuid sõnu

Postby Salajane » 2018-03-29, 8:04

Another word that I think doesn't have an exact equivalent in English, is kahjurõõm. Although, this is probably a direct translation from German Schadenfreude:
the experience of pleasure, joy, or self-satisfaction that comes from learning of or witnessing the troubles, failures, or humiliation of another


In Ukrainian, it is also translated from German, as "зловтіха".
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Re: Untranslatable words / tõlkimatuid sõnu

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-04-06, 21:43

ainurakne wrote:Another word that I think doesn't have an exact equivalent in English, is kahjurõõm. Although, this is probably a direct translation from German Schadenfreude:
the experience of pleasure, joy, or self-satisfaction that comes from learning of or witnessing the troubles, failures, or humiliation of another


But not having it in English is weird, since kahjurõõm on ju kõige suurem rõõm. :lol:


I came across the phrase ei ilkunud while reading today (in that same book which had manu and turdim that I asked about a few days ago), which was a new word for me. To my surprise the dictionary lead me to a whole collection of kahjurõõm-related verbs in Estonian:

ilkuma (midagi pilavalt v. parastades ütlema, parastama, kahjurõõmutsema) "to express malicious joy at the misfortunes of others"
ihitama (kahjurõõmsalt naeru kihistama) "to fleer or snigger maliciously at a person's misfortune"
kahjurõõmutsema (kahjurõõmu tundma) "to take malicious pleasure in the misfortune of others"
parastama (kahjurõõmsalt osatama, kahjurõõmsalt etteheiteid tegema v. noomima) "to show malicious joy at a person's misfortune, to utter 'paras!'"

We have the noun schadenfreude in English, but not the whole noun/verb/adjective/adverb "complete collection." :D We don't have adjective or adverb forms of it like Estonian and German do: kahjurõõmus and kahjurõõmsalt in Estonian, schadenfreudig and schadenfroh in German. For verbs "gloat," "sneer," "snigger," and "jeer" come fairly close, although they can be used in situations that don't involve someone else's misfortune, so they aren't quite as specific to the feeling of kahjurõõm as verbs like kahjurõõmutsema and parastama are.

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Re: Untranslatable words / tõlkimatuid sõnu

Postby linguoboy » 2018-04-06, 21:58

Linguaphile wrote:We have the noun schadenfreude in English, but not the whole noun/verb/adjective/adverb "complete collection."

"schadenfreudy" is attested in published works going back at least a decade. There's even a popular podcast named "Feelin' Schadenfreudy". The use of "schadenfreude" as a verb (e.g. "I haven't schadenfreuded this hard since Kelsey Grammar fell off stage.") goes back almost as far. Both of these usages are informal, whereas the noun schadenfreude can be used in all registers.

A formal synonym of schadenfreude is "epicaricacy", from which is derived the formal (and extremely rare) adjective form "epicaricatic".
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Re: Untranslatable words / tõlkimatuid sõnu

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-04-06, 22:33

linguoboy wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:We have the noun schadenfreude in English, but not the whole noun/verb/adjective/adverb "complete collection."

"schadenfreudy" is attested in published works going back at least a decade. There's even a popular podcast named "Feelin' Schadenfreudy". The use of "schadenfreude" as a verb (e.g. "I haven't schadenfreuded this hard since Kelsey Grammar fell off stage.") goes back almost as far. Both of these usages are informal, whereas the noun schadenfreude can be used in all registers.

A formal synonym of schadenfreude is "epicaricacy", from which is derived the formal (and extremely rare) adjective form "epicaricatic".

Interesting. I have never heard any of those. How did you figure out the "going back at least a decade" part? That's pretty recent, really. I googled it just now but mostly found references to a podcast from Deep State Radio (and a grand total of 19 unique Google hits for epicaricatic so yeah, I'd say that's extremely rare). I think I stand a much better chance of being understood with kahjurõõmsalt . :D Where do you find these words?


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