Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2017-12-31, 12:56

Aitäh teile mõlemile! I've found it this isn't the common cold like I first thought but influenza... It seems I've finally got rid of the 39C fever but this cough will never end. :( At least I'm not sleeping 18 hours a day anymore, which is good.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-01-02, 3:17

Naava wrote:Aitäh teile mõlemile! I've found it this isn't the common cold like I first thought but influenza... It seems I've finally got rid of the 39C fever but this cough will never end. :( At least I'm not sleeping 18 hours a day anymore, which is good.

That's not a fun way to ring in the New Year at all.... take care of yourself and feel better soon!

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-01-05, 0:20

Kas kotakas on inglise keeles "baggy" ja kodukittel "dressing gown, bathrobe"? They are not in my dictionaries and Google Translate soooo unhelpfully suggests "eagle" and "home theater".....
:hmm:

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-01-05, 0:31

Naava wrote:Aitäh teile mõlemile! I've found it this isn't the common cold like I first thought but influenza... It seems I've finally got rid of the 39C fever but this cough will never end. :( At least I'm not sleeping 18 hours a day anymore, which is good.

Hey Naava, are you feeling better? I hope so!

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2018-01-05, 10:37

Not really, I'm still coughing and feeling tired. :/

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2018-01-05, 13:19

Linguaphile wrote:Kas kotakas on inglise keeles "baggy" ja kodukittel "dressing gown, bathrobe"?
Ma olen seda sõna (kotakas) küll omajagu kuulnud, kuid minagi ei suutnud seda ühestki tavalisest sõnaraamatust leida. :lol:

Ma arvasin samuti, et see on "baggy" või "saggy" või midagi sellist -- ju ma ei ole siis sellele sõnale eriti tähelepanu pööranud, ega selle tähenduse peale mõelnud :lol: -- kuid murdesõnastikest selgus, et see tähendab hoopis räbalat või räbaldunut (rag, tatter, tattered, tatty).

"Dressing gown, bathrobe" on eesti keeles hommikumantel.

Kittel on selline kerge (ja õhuke) pikk üleriie, mida kantakse mingeid töid tehes teiste riiete peal. Enamasti selleks, et kaitsta alumisi riideid määrdumise eest.
Kitleid kannavad näiteks arstid, kokad ja muude selliste elukutsete esindajad.

Kodukittel on selline kittel, mida kantakse kodus koduseid töid ja toimetusi tehes.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-01-05, 15:52

Naava wrote:Not really, I'm still coughing and feeling tired. :/

:(

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-01-05, 16:14

ainurakne wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:Kas kotakas on inglise keeles "baggy" ja kodukittel "dressing gown, bathrobe"?
Ma olen seda sõna (kotakas) küll omajagu kuulnud, kuid minagi ei suutnud seda ühestki tavalisest sõnaraamatust leida. :lol:

Ma arvasin samuti, et see on "baggy" või "saggy" või midagi sellist -- ju ma ei ole siis sellele sõnale eriti tähelepanu pööranud, ega selle tähenduse peale mõelnud :lol: -- kuid murdesõnastikest selgus, et see tähendab hoopis räbalat või räbaldunut (rag, tatter, tattered, tatty).

Aitäh!
ainurakne wrote:"Dressing gown, bathrobe" on eesti keeles hommikumantel.
Kittel on selline kerge (ja õhuke) pikk üleriie, mida kantakse mingeid töid tehes teiste riiete peal. Enamasti selleks, et kaitsta alumisi riideid määrdumise eest.
Kitleid kannavad näiteks arstid, kokad ja muude selliste elukutsete esindajad.

kodukittel või hommikumantel 1 kodukittel või hommikumantel 2 :twisted:
ainurakne wrote:Kodukittel on selline kittel, mida kantakse kodus koduseid töid ja toimetusi tehes.

Kodukittel on siis inglise keeles housecoat.

Suur aitäh!

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2018-01-09, 12:45

Võta heaks!

Noo, minu jaoks on hommikumantel ikka selline pehme ja karvane.

Linguaphile wrote:Kodukittel on siis inglise keeles housecoat.
Ju vist.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby linguoboy » 2018-01-10, 16:14

Question about the title of the Estonian bestseller Mees, kes teadis ussisõnu: What's the etymology of ussisõnu? The English translation is The man who spoke Snakish, but ussisõnu is nothing like madu "snake".

ETA: It never fails; no sooner do I ask than it hits me that it must be ussi "worm's" + sõnu "words [part.]".
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2018-01-10, 18:28

Yes, it literally means "worm's words".

But in everyday language, the word "uss" is used for all worm-like creatures: snakes, worms, caterpillars and so on.
Which exact creature is meant, depends on the context, if it matters at all.


The word "ussisõnad" could be perceived as the language of snakes, although in folklore it refers to the spells for dispelling snakes or curing snakebites.

Similarly there are many other kinds of spells and incantations, like nõiasõnad, manasõnad, vägisõnad, tulesõnad, tuulesõnad and so on.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby linguoboy » 2018-01-10, 20:47

ainurakne wrote:The word "ussisõnad" could be perceived as the language of snakes, although in folklore it refers to the spells for dispelling snakes or curing snakebites.

What in earlier German would be called Sprüche (from sprechen "to speak").

Come to think of it, I do still have a question: I was trying to translate "starshine" into Estonian and came up with tähepaiste by analogy with päikespaiste and kuupaiste. But Googling it turned up nothing obviously relevant, so I'm wondering if I missed the mark.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-01-10, 23:02

linguoboy wrote:Come to think of it, I do still have a question: I was trying to translate "starshine" into Estonian and came up with tähepaiste by analogy with päikesepaiste and kuupaiste. But Googling it turned up nothing obviously relevant, so I'm wondering if I missed the mark.

Starlight doesn't normally shine like the moon or sun so I would say tähevalgus instead. (You can also say kuuvalgus for moonlight/moonshine.) Paiste is mostly for light (and sometimes heat) that radiates. For example, there is also ahjupaiste for the light and heat from an oven's/stove's fire. So I think you could use tähepaiste for some sort of science fiction story to talk about how a star shines onto its own planets, but to use it to describe what we see here on Earth's night sky doesn't sound right. Stars just don't seem bright enough from here to have a good tähepaiste.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2018-01-11, 7:22

linguoboy wrote:Come to think of it, I do still have a question: I was trying to translate "starshine" into Estonian and came up with tähepaiste by analogy with päikespaiste and kuupaiste. But Googling it turned up nothing obviously relevant, so I'm wondering if I missed the mark.
I would say tähesära. The verb särama is also to shine or to look bright.

Linguaphile wrote:Paiste is mostly for light (and sometimes heat) that radiates.
Yes, I think that's about right.
Linguaphile wrote:For example, there is also ahjupaiste for the light and heat from an oven's/stove's fire.
Or tulepaiste if it's an open fireplace or a bonfire (or just a bright and/or warm light source): e.g end tulepaistel soojendama (to warm oneself in the radiation of fire/light).
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2018-02-17, 16:33

I saw in the synonym game topic that mänd, hong, and pedajas are synonyms. Is there any difference in meaning or can you use them to refer to the same tree? Are they all used equally much?

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-02-17, 18:04

Naava wrote:I saw in the synonym game topic that mänd, hong, and pedajas are synonyms. Is there any difference in meaning or can you use them to refer to the same tree? Are they all used equally much?

So, that's kind of a complicated question. Short answer: yes, they are the same tree, and except for hong they can be used in exactly the same way. In order of common usage, I would say mänd is the most common, followed by pedajas, then pedakas (then hong).

Long answer(s):

pedajas / pedakas = southern dialect
mänd = northern dialect

...but also...
pedajas / pedakas = etymologically older word, Finnic origin
mänd = etymologically newer word, Baltic origin

...and also...
pedajas / pedakas = bigger tree
mänd = smaller tree

...and...
hong = older tree
mänd = younger tree
Etymology from ETY

So it kind of depends. In practice mänd and pedajas are normally used as synonyms, with mänd being more common (except where the southern dialect is spoken, where they also say pettäi and pedäjä). Outside the south pedajas tends to have a bit of a folkloric feel to it, in my experience at least, but I don't think that's necessarily true for all speakers. Hong is less common and more specific than the other words, since it is only used to refer to older trees (the EKSS dictionary defines it as suur vana mänd).

Incidentally, both mänd (Estonian) and petäjä (Finnish) were among the first words I learned in those languages, for very different reasons: mänd because it was part of a friend's surname and petäjä because it was used in a Finnish song (actually, turns out it was an Ingrian song, but I first heard it sung in Finnish). Since then I've learned that Finnish also has mänty and honka....

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2018-02-17, 18:46

Thanks Linguaphile, that was a really long and detailed answer!

Do you know when mänd was loaned into Estonian? (Or Proto-Finnic or some other protoprewhatever-language?)

Also, I found out that there used to be a tool that was made of the top of a pine tree. It was used to stir porridge or make butter. It doesn't mean that in Finnish anymore, but Estonian seems to have kept the original meaning:

mänd1 : männa : mända 'toidu segamise v kloppimise riist', and then it says after the mänd2 that "on arvatud, et tuletis tüvest mänd1, see tööriist tehti enamasti noore männi ladvast."

So, which one was first, mänd or mänd? :D

// Slightly offtopic but:

Linguaphile wrote:and petäjä because it was used in a Finnish song (actually, turns out it was an Ingrian song, but I first heard it sung in Finnish)

If you want to hear a Finnish song with petäjä, try this one. It's from a kids' movie and it's been playing in my head ever since I saw the word in the synonym game. :ohwell: You can find the lyrics here. I tried to find a translation, too, but nobody's done that. I also know two songs with honka. Why do I know so many songs that mention pine trees?

Linguaphile wrote:Since then I've learned that Finnish also has mänty and honka....

Yep, they're used pretty much the same way as in Estonian: honka and petäjä are bigger and older versions of mänty. If I remember it right, petäjä was used in the eastern dialects while honka was used in the western dialects. At least there's a town called Honkajoki in Western Finland, so... :D

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-02-18, 4:12

Naava wrote:Thanks Linguaphile, that was a really long and detailed answer!

Do you know when mänd was loaned into Estonian? (Or Proto-Finnic or some other protoprewhatever-language?)

Also, I found out that there used to be a tool that was made of the top of a pine tree. It was used to stir porridge or make butter. It doesn't mean that in Finnish anymore, but Estonian seems to have kept the original meaning:

mänd1 : männa : mända 'toidu segamise v kloppimise riist', and then it says after the mänd2 that "on arvatud, et tuletis tüvest mänd1, see tööriist tehti enamasti noore männi ladvast."

So, which one was first, mänd or mänd? :D

Well, mänd came first before mänd, obviously.... :grin:
Actually, the word mänd1 mända männa (the wooden utensil) apparently came before mänd2 mändi männi (the tree). No, I don't know how long ago the word entered Estonian. Just... sometime after they had contact with Balts, but probably fairly early while it was still a proto form of the language, since the same stem is shared by most other Finnic languages (but not the other branches of Uralic).
Naava wrote:
Linguaphile wrote:and petäjä because it was used in a Finnish song (actually, turns out it was an Ingrian song, but I first heard it sung in Finnish)

If you want to hear a Finnish song with petäjä, try this one. It's from a kids' movie and it's been playing in my head ever since I saw the word in the synonym game. :ohwell: You can find the lyrics here. I tried to find a translation, too, but nobody's done that. I also know two songs with honka. Why do I know so many songs that mention pine trees?

Aitäh! No problem about not having a translation, I'll just plug it into Google translate and....
Google Translate wrote: :whistle: Tahdon laittaa porkkanamaan ja tahdon rakentaa töllin, missä pääni kallistaa saan, kainaloon tyttöröllin.
I want to put some carrots and I want to build the stuff where my head tends to get a girl in the armpit. :hmm:

:headbang: Eh, never mind. :roll: But seriously, between my minuscule Finnish, Estonian and Google Translate's silly antics, I get the gist. Thanks for the link!

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2018-02-18, 8:51

Well, mänd came first before mänd, obviously.... :grin:

Of course. :D Estonian, this is why you need to take the final vowels back. Now.

Actually, the word mänd1 mända männa (the wooden utensil) apparently came before mänd2 mändi männi (the tree)

It feels really strange because I had never even seen any connection between the two it means piston in Finnish it's not like I'd think about tree tops when someone mentions motors! and then I don't only learn that they are related but also that the tree was named after the tool. :shock:

No problem about not having a translation, I'll just plug it into Google translate and....

Truly, who needs human translators when we have such useful machines?
I tried too and:
Google wrote:I want to put some carrots and I want to build the stuff where my head tilts, and I'm gonna have a girl in the armpit.

I like the attitude here!
Google speaking in Estonian wrote:Ma tahan panna mõned porgandid ja ma tahan ehitada kraami, kus mu pea kipub, tüdruk kaenlaalust.

...yeah.

How it really goes:
I want to make a carrot patch and I want to build a hut where I can rest in the arms of a girl troll.
(It does say 'where I can tilt my head into the armpit of a girl troll' but that doesn't sound right in English. :lol:)

But seriously, between my minuscule Finnish, Estonian and Google Translate's silly antics, I get the gist. Thanks for the link!

No problem! :D In short, the troll is lonely and full of love, and he doesn't know what to do with it. It was kinda surprising when he started to sing because he doesn't say a word before or after that, he only growls and roars and looks damn scary.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2018-02-18, 17:37

Naava wrote:
Well, mänd came first before mänd, obviously.... :grin:

Of course. :D Estonian, this is why you need to take the final vowels back. Now.

LOL. Well, they often take the final vowels back for the genitive and partitive forms though. So there's that.

Naava wrote:It feels really strange because I had never even seen any connection between the two it means piston in Finnish it's not like I'd think about tree tops when someone mentions motors! and then I don't only learn that they are related but also that the tree was named after the tool. :shock:

Yeah. Now you're going to think of pistons whenever you see a pine tree. "They have a really tall Piston Tree in their backyard" and so on. Even in Estonian... "last night's storm blew down the Wooden Stirring Utensil across the street."

Naava wrote:I want to make a carrot patch and I want to build a hut where I can rest in the arms of a girl troll.
(It does say 'where I can tilt my head into the armpit of a girl troll' but that doesn't sound right in English. :lol:)

Words for body parts are interesting to translate between English and Finnic languages, particularly hands and feet. Kaenla is a "larger" body part than it is in English. I'm not saying Finns and Estonians have enormous armpits... but the English word "armpit" or even "underarm" refers to a smaller part of the body, that small part directly under the shoulder that tends to get a bit smelly if you don't use deodorant. And its "translation" kaenal is quite a bit larger and therefore less smelly, since it includes the (inner) upper arm towards the elbow. So it should be "in her arm" or (for carrying something) "under her arm" but annoyingly it often gets translated as "armpit" anyway, so you end up hearing about schoolkids walking to school with textbooks in their armpits and farmers carrying chickens in their armpits and so on. :doggy:


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