Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

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Linguaphile
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-11-22, 19:34

Irusia wrote:
Prantsis wrote:And also:

prii <- low german vri

proua <- low german vrouwe, german Frau

prantsuse <- low german franzōs, german Franzose

I always thought it was because the sound "f" does not exist in native Estonian words, so it was changed to "p" in early borrowings.

Yes, I think that is why. Especially with words that start with pr. All of your examples do and there's also:
priske <- alamsaksa vrisch, saksa frisch
When not followed by r the /f/ sound often changed to v (or hv) instead:
tahvel <- alamsaksa ja saksa Tafel
kahvel <- alamsaksa gaffele, saksa Gabel
ahv <- alamsaksa ja saksa Affe

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2017-11-23, 8:07

Naava wrote:The little I could find with a quick search in Finnish says it was voiceless stop -> fricative, whereas in English it says it was voiceless stop -> voiced stop. That's how it is even in Wikipedia:

...

*or maybe it was 'no fricatives with nasals'. It's been 2 years, idk. :lol: I could check the lecture powerpoints but they're on my old computer, which is slow to start and hard to work with in general so I haven't been too motivated to copy the old files to my new computer. :roll:
Okay... I'll try to understand all this. Thanks!

Naava wrote:That's like the game where you must memorize the things you have on a table, then close your eyes while someone removes one or more of the things, and then you try to remember what's missing. :D
Except in the game I know what to expect (or at least to expect something), real life makes me wonder sometimes whether I have memories from some alternative timelines or just a crappy memory and a wild imagination. :para:

Linguaphile wrote:Aitäh teile mõlemale!
Aga palun!
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2017-11-23, 15:31

ainurakne wrote: Okay... I'll try to understand all this. Thanks!

In any case, fricatives were the last stage - it explains why Estonian and Eastern Finnish dialects (likely the Karelian language, too, because the dialects there and Karelian have come from the same pre-something-language) have the gradation of /t/ -> ∅ while Western Finnish dialects have /t/ -> /l/ or /r/ or /ɾ/, and also why there was this small area around Rauma in south western coast where they had /t/ -> /ð/.

Also, Agricola used <d> and <dh> for the sound that later became /l, r, ɾ/ or ∅, and <th> for /θ/ *, so it's easy to believe his <dh> was a fricative as well. I mean, his writing system is quite wild, but it's not that illogical. If I remember right, Swedish had dental fricative(s?) too, and they were written with <th> and <dh>. This was mentioned during one course like 3 years ago so I can't guarantee this is 100% accurate now.

*...which in turn became /ts, tt, ht/ in strong grade, eg. Estonian mets, dialectal Finnish mettä, mehtä, and quite a lot of different sounds in the weak grade, eg. Estonian ise and Finnish itse, itte, ite, ihe, ihte.

About the clusters: I think it was only the nasals that changed the voiceless stop into a voiced stop, eg. ranta > randan. This is super scientific now, I know, but Estonian and some Finnish dialects have selg > selja, and at least to me [selɣa] sounds closer to [selja] than [selga] does. :P And there are Finnish dialects with selkä > selään, and I think it's more logical that a fricative has been "replaced" by an extra vowel than that a voiced stop became a vowel.

Except in the game I know what to expect (or at least to expect something), real life makes me wonder sometimes whether I have memories from some alternative timelines or just a crappy memory and a wild imagination. :para:

Can't you check the edit history somewhere? I'm quite sure there was some kind of history page or something where you could see who has edited and what and how. :hmm:

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2017-11-24, 12:49

Naava wrote:In any case, fricatives were the last stage ...
...
... than that a voiced stop became a vowel.
I see.

Naava wrote:Can't you check the edit history somewhere? I'm quite sure there was some kind of history page or something where you could see who has edited and what and how. :hmm:
I have tried, but most of the stuff on those pages are pulled in from templates in magical ways (and from magical places, which I haven't fully figured out yet), so there's not much to see in history. Also, templates seem to be often replaced with new ones making the old ones unreachable or deleting them completely, so there's not much to see even on the current template history pages.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby france-eesti » 2017-11-25, 20:03

Tere!
Not about Estonian language, but about Estonian beers :)
What happened is I found out LeCoq Premium in my hard discount shop! Well of course I tried one - and it's very, very light lager, even lighter than the usual German lager.
I also tasted Viru (I think that's another one from Tartu) - it was the same kind of beer.
So are all those Estonian lagers so light? :)
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-11-25, 20:51

I'm not a beer-drinker so I don't know about France-Eesti's question above (sorrry). Now if you had asked about Estonian chocolate or dark bread (leib) then that I could maybe answer. :mrgreen:
Anyway I am posting another totally different, (probably) non-language-related question. I found this picture online and was wondering if anyone knows what the symbols are. It is in southeastern Estonia (Põlvamaa). I think it's on a clay-covered barn (??) and it made me curious because I've never seen anything similar that I can recall. Does anyone recognize the symbols? I mean I can see there is a human figure and geometric shapes (crosses, squares, diagonal lines), but I am wondering if it has any specific meaning or origin. It may be religious especially given that much of the website I found it on has to do with Orthodox churches and chapels (tsässonad) in Setumaa. But this is not a chapel and overall it just looks very unusual to me. Any ideas?
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2017-11-26, 9:44

france-eesti wrote:What happened is I found out LeCoq Premium in my hard discount shop! Well of course I tried one - and it's very, very light lager, even lighter than the usual German lager.
I also tasted Viru (I think that's another one from Tartu) - it was the same kind of beer.
So are all those Estonian lagers so light? :)
By light, do you mean that it has too little alcohol in it?

I know, people who don't drink beer because they are thirsty, but in order for it to get into the head, drink for example Bear Beer (or "karu õlu" in colloquial language) - or at least they did several years ago. I don't know if it's still available, but I remember Bear Beer having variants of up to 10% alcohol content. And they even came in 2 liter plastic bottles, so it was the most bang for the buck. :mrgreen:

But other than that, I know nothing about beers (and don't drink them either), so I can't answer your question. Sorry!
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby france-eesti » 2017-11-26, 12:20

Tere! Aitäh!
Alcohol level is a normal 5° - I'm more speaking about the taste - you can barely taste the hops and the "usual" tastes you should feel in a beer :) But no matter anyway - I think I'll have a better sample when I finally come to Tallinn, Tartu and Pärnu :)

I'm also curious about leib! Is that rye bread? Does it countain wheat flour or just rye? So when you say "dark bread", is it really dark or just a little less whitish that the fucking French baguette that I ate? :partyhat:
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2017-11-26, 13:22

You are welcome! And sorry, I don't know anything about such qualities of beer!

france-eesti wrote:I'm also curious about leib! Is that rye bread? Does it countain wheat flour or just rye? So when you say "dark bread", is it really dark or just a little less whitish that the fucking French baguette that I ate? :partyhat:
Leib refers dark (although the darkness may vary) rye bread (although some kinds of it may contain some minuscule amount of wheat) which is (usually) made with the process of dough acidification using a sourdough starter (or however this process is called in English).
There are a whole lot a different leibu, ranging from lighter to very dark, from softer to very hard, so I think you should find something that you'd like.

The light one that is made of (usually) wheat (and is raised using yeast), is called sai. Besides that, there are also a bit darker sepik - usually wheat or wheat and barley and may contain some rye and other stuff also, but is made in the same way as sai - and other mysterious bread types.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby france-eesti » 2017-11-26, 17:36

Aitäh! this is great! I'm trying to avoid the white French baguette and wheat bread (not because of gluten but because of glycemic index) so this sound great to me :) I bought rye bread the other day at the market but I'm not sure it's the same rye bread you have in Estonian :hmm: Perhaps... :)
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-11-26, 19:07

france-eesti wrote:Does it countain wheat flour or just rye?
Here's your answer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEd7OylO-z0
:mrgreen:
But actually, despite the rye stalks in the video who do not let poor unfortunate wheat join their sauna, there are even some types of leib with chocolate or beer and many with seeds or various grains added, so there really are all kinds: Suur leibade välimääraja

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2017-11-26, 19:32

Now that we are talking about bread: how common is it to have syrup in rye bread?

Linguaphile wrote:Here's your answer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEd7OylO-z0

:rotfl:
But why are they wearing towels

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2017-11-26, 19:48

Naava wrote:Now that we are talking about bread: how common is it to have syrup in rye bread?
Searching "siirupileib" from Google gives many hits from recipe portals, so I guess it could be a rising trend among home-made rye bread makers, but I think I hadn't heard about (nor seen) it before.

I know there's some kind of honey rye bread, I think. :hmm:

Naava wrote:But why are they wearing towels
I'm bothered a lot more by the fact that the wheat left the door open. :x

But I don't know. Maybe it was easier to make it so (without needing to solve all the connection points of the limbs), or maybe because of the children watching it. :roll:
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2017-11-26, 20:08

ainurakne wrote:
Naava wrote:But why are they wearing towels
I'm bothered a lot more by the fact that the wheat left the door open. :x

Maybe it did it as a revenge? You know, the classic "I'll leave the door open so you must get up to close it"? :lol: Seems like it didn't work though, they're throwing the water on the stove as if the leil won't escape... :D

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-12-20, 1:36

On the topic of Estonian foods, does Kaseke candy have actual birch flavor and/or birch-based ingredients? Or is it just the name for a milk-based and cacao-based candy?

Koostisosad: Suhkur, taimsed rasvad (palmi-, palmituumaõli), täispiimapulber, kuivikupuru (sh muna, gluteen), vähendatud rasvasisaldusega kakaopulber, vadakupulber (piim), lõhna- ja maitseained.

The ingredients list doesn't seem to include it, but I wondered if it might be included as lõhna- ja maitseained. And I assume(d) that kuivikupuru is dry breadcrumbs, but I just discovered that another definition for kuivik is jalal kuivanud puu. (What does that mean exactly? A tree that has died and dried up while still standing? A dead branch on a living tree?) So now I'm totally questioning what this kuivikupuru is made from and visualizing candy made from the ground-up powder of birch trees that have died.... :doggy: :mrgreen:

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2017-12-22, 15:15

Linguaphile wrote:The ingredients list doesn't seem to include it, but I wondered if it might be included as lõhna- ja maitseained. And I assume(d) that kuivikupuru is dry breadcrumbs, but I just discovered that another definition for kuivik is jalal kuivanud puu. (What does that mean exactly? A tree that has died and dried up while still standing? A dead branch on a living tree?) So now I'm totally questioning what this kuivikupuru is made from and visualizing candy made from the ground-up powder of birch trees that have died.... :doggy: :mrgreen:
:shock: I doubt anyone would put wood inside a candy. It's indigestible and, probably even worse, it doesn't melt in the mouth like the rest of the candy, so you end up having hard pieces of wood in your mouth, that you probably need to spit out anyway -- doesn't look like a good first impression of a candy to me.

I always thought Kaseke was some kind of kama-based candy, but looking at the ingredient list, I guess not. Although, it seems to have changed somewhat. I remember it as quite light-colored. Not exactly white, but natural looking light, kind of like kama. Now it has become quite brown, probably because of quite considerable amount of cacao in it:

kaseke_small.jpg


Most likely, kuivikupuru is here indeed dry breadcrumbs, although I think kuivik could be any kind of solid chunk of dried food that doesn't go bad when not having any contact with moisture.

I think jalal kuivanud puu is rather a whole tree that has dried up while standing, than just a branch.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-12-22, 15:49

ainurakne wrote: :shock: I doubt anyone would put wood inside a candy. It's indigestible and, probably even worse, it doesn't melt in the mouth like the rest of the candy, so you end up having hard pieces of wood in your mouth, that you probably need to spit out anyway -- doesn't look like a good first impression of a candy to me.

:rotfl:

ainurakne wrote:I always thought Kaseke was some kind of kama-based candy, but looking at the ingredient list, I guess not. Although, it seems to have changed somewhat. I remember it as quite light-colored. Not exactly white, but natural looking light, kind of like kama. Now it has become quite brown, probably because of quite considerable amount of cacao in it.

That's interesting that it has changed! I was joking about the powdered wood (at least, I was hoping it was a joke! LOL!) but I thought it could have some sort of birch-based flavor. Birch sap (kasemahl) can be consumed, so why not? :yep: I've never tasted birch sap though so I have no idea if it would make a good candy. I don't think it is so sweet like maple.....

ainurakne wrote:
Most likely, kuivikupuru is here indeed dry breadcrumbs, although I think kuivik could be any kind of solid chunk of dried food that doesn't go bad when not having any contact with moisture.

I think jalal kuivanud puu is rather a whole tree that has dried up while standing, than just a branch.

Suur aitäh!

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2017-12-22, 17:39

Võta heaks!

Linguaphile wrote:I was joking about the powdered wood (at least, I was hoping it was a joke! LOL!) but I thought it could have some sort of birch-based flavor. Birch sap (kasemahl) can be consumed, so why not?
Maybe leaves... :hmm:
I haven't tasted birch leaves (at least I think I haven't, although who can keep track of all the things put into one's mouth as a child), but if their taste is anything similar to the smell of fresh birch-viht in the heat of sauna, then I think this could be a hit.

Linguaphile wrote: :yep: I've never tasted birch sap though so I have no idea if it would make a good candy. I don't think it is so sweet like maple.....
Maple sap is a lot sweeter than birch sap. Even too sweet for me. Birch sap is very light and kind of refreshing. Not much taste, though. Maybe just a faint taste of wood... or dirt... :hmm:
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-12-23, 22:07

ainurakne wrote:(at least I think I haven't, although who can keep track of all the things put into one's mouth as a child)

LOL - that's a good point.

ainurakne wrote:Birch sap is very light and kind of refreshing [...] Just a faint taste of wood... or dirt...

Ah, the light, refreshing taste of wood and dirt! :ohwell:
I want to say that it sounds so Estonian, but I think it might be misinterpreted. I'm not saying Estonians eat wood and dirt and I don't mean it as an insult. I guess your comment makes me think of the smell of wood and dirt, not the taste, because it somehow sounds wholesome and makes me think of of things like sleeping in a hayloft on a summer night or making a crown out of cornflower blossoms. Can't quite explain it.
We really should market this idea of birch-leaf-and-birch-sap candy, that smells like sauna whisks and tastes like wood and dirt. We could make beautiful video ads for it. It would probably sell very well, at least until people actually tasted it. But since the name Kaseke is already taken, I have no idea what we'll call the stuff.
:rotfl:

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-12-24, 20:10

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