Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

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ghostie
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ghostie » 2017-06-12, 14:12

Tere! Küsin kahe väikeste küsimuste. 1. Is there any difference between the two diminutive suffixes -ke and -kene, and if not, is is entirely down to personal choice which one is used? 2. Can these suffixes be added to any noun, and if not, is there any way of knowing if a noun can take diminutive suffix, eg. is it reflected in a noun's dictionary entry?

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2017-06-12, 15:27

ghostie wrote:Tere! Küsin kaks väikest küsimust.
Tere!

1. They are the same suffix, just the final -ne is often omitted in nominative singular.
But you need this -ne to decline the suffix (-ke(ne) : -kese : -kest; you cannot omit it in other cases).

2. Technically, you can add the suffix to any noun (that has a genitive form, which you will use as a stem you append the suffix to). In practice, there could be words that wouldn't make much (or any) sense with the appended suffix, but none pop into my head right now.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-06-12, 21:02

ghostie wrote:Tere! Küsin kahe väikeste küsimuste. 1. Is there any difference between the two diminutive suffixes -ke and -kene, and if not, is is entirely down to personal choice which one is used? 2. Can these suffixes be added to any noun, and if not, is there any way of knowing if a noun can take diminutive suffix, eg. is it reflected in a noun's dictionary entry?

-ke and -kene have the same meaning in the nominative form, so it's just personal choice (or, in poetry, whichever one has the number of syllables you need :D ). In the other cases besides the nominative, the longer form changes to -kese and the shorter form cannot be used.
There are a few words which are always used with the diminutive form:
päike(ne) = sun (related to päev "day")
äike(ne) = thunder (related to äi "father-in-law"!)
väike(ne) = small (related to vähe "few")
õhuke(ne) = thin (related to õhk "air")
natuke(ne) = a little
lühike(ne) = short
I would say for the words listed above in the nominative case the -ke form tends to be preferred over the -kene form (just judging from how commonly I've encountered it with those words), except for natuke/natukene, for which both forms seem very common.
Learning is a treasure that follows its owner everywhere. El aprendizaje es un tesoro que sigue a su dueño por todas partes. Õpitu on aare, mis saadab oma omanikku kõikjal. Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt. L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout. Txoj kev kawm yog cov khoom muaj nqis, uas raws nws tus tswv qhov txhia chaw. Op'minõ om aarõq, miä saat uma umanikku egäl puul.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2017-06-13, 6:28

Linguaphile wrote:päike(ne) = sun (related to päev "day")
Indeed, päike(ne) is supposedly the shortened form of *päivükkäinen (or something like that), which sure looks like a diminutive of päev.

This 'ü' there may seem weird, but there are also other peculiarities like laevuke(ne), which uses plural stem laevu- (instead of being laevake(ne)).
And pojuke(ne) which is used in parallel with pojake(ne).


Linguaphile wrote:äike(ne) = thunder (related to äi "father-in-law"!)
I think the meaning of äi has shifted in Estonian, since in other Finnic languages it seems to mean rather an old man, grandfather or even father, so äike(ne) most likely either refers to the apparition of or to the god of natural forces itself.


Also worth mentioning: some -ke(ne) suffixes have merged to the stem, so you could see parallel usages in some cases of some words, for example:
väike/väikene : väikse/väikese : väikest
päike/päikene : päikse/päikese : päikest
äike/äikene : äikse/äikese : äikest
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ghostie » 2017-06-15, 6:23

ainurakne wrote:Tere!

1. They are the same suffix, just the final -ne is often omitted in nominative singular.
But you need this -ne to decline the suffix (-ke(ne) : -kese : -kest; you cannot omit it in other cases).

2. Technically, you can add the suffix to any noun (that has a genitive form, which you will use as a stem you append the suffix to). In practice, there could be words that wouldn't make much (or any) sense with the appended suffix, but none pop into my head right now.



Linguaphile wrote:-ke and -kene have the same meaning in the nominative form, so it's just personal choice (or, in poetry, whichever one has the number of syllables you need :D ). In the other cases besides the nominative, the longer form changes to -kese and the shorter form cannot be used.
There are a few words which are always used with the diminutive form:
päike(ne) = sun (related to päev "day")
äike(ne) = thunder (related to äi "father-in-law"!)
väike(ne) = small (related to vähe "few")
õhuke(ne) = thin (related to õhk "air")
natuke(ne) = a little
lühike(ne) = short
I would say for the words listed above in the nominative case the -ke form tends to be preferred over the -kene form (just judging from how commonly I've encountered it with those words), except for natuke/natukene, for which both forms seem very common.


Arvud on osastavas käändes! ("Üks" aga nimetavas käändes, jah?) Tänan, õppisin uue grammatika. Jah suur aitäh, mõlemad! Te vastused on väga kasulikud. See on kena foorum, ma tulen ka siia tagasi, kui minul on jälle küsimuse. :D

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2017-06-15, 9:33

ghostie wrote:Arvud on osastavas käändes! ("Üks" aga nimetavas käändes, jah?) Tänan, õppisin uue grammatikareegli. Jah suur aitäh, mõlemad! T(ei)e vastused on väga kasulikud. See on kena foorum, ma tulen (ka) siia tagasi, kui m(in)ul on/tekib jälle/veel küsimusi. :D
Võta heaks!

Kui pead silmas loendatava(te) objekti(de) käänet, siis see oleneb arvu enda käändest. Kui arv ise on nimetavas käändes, siis jah, ühe puhul kasutatakse nimetavat käänet ning teiste arvude puhul osastavat. Kusjuures osastava puhul kasutatakse ainsust, mitte mitmust:
üks käsi - one hand (käsi on nimetavas käändes)
kaks kätt - two hands (käsi on osastavas käändes)

Kui arv ise on mõnes teises käändes, siis arvu ja loendatava objekti kääne ühtivad:
ühe käe, üht(e) kätt, ühte/ühesse kätte/käesse, ühes käes, ühest käest, ühele käele, ühel käel, ühelt käelt, üheks käeks, ühe käeni, ühe käena, ühe käeta, ühe käega
kahe käe, kaht(e) kätt, kahte/kahesse kätte/käesse, kahes käes, kahest käest, kahele käele, kahel käel, kahelt käelt, kaheks käeks, kahe käeni, kahe käena, kahe käeta, kahe käega

Sama kehtib ka kõikide käänete mitmuse puhul:
ühed käed, ühtede käte, ühtedesse kätesse, ühtedes kätes, ühtedest kätest, ühtedele kätele, ühtedel kätel, ühtedelt kätelt, ühtedeks käteks, ühtede käteni, ühtede kätena, ühtede käteta, ühtede kätega
kahed käed, kahtede käte, kahtedesse kätesse, kahtedes kätes, kahtedest kätest, kahtedele kätele, kahtedel kätel, kahtedelt kätelt, kahtedeks käteks, kahtede käteni, kahtede kätena, kahtede käteta, kahtede kätega

---

If you mean the case of the countable object(s), then this depends on the case of the number itself. If the number itself is in nominative case, then yes, in case of one nominative is used and in case of other numbers partitive is used. And in case of partitive, singular partitive is used, not plural.

If the number itself is in some other case, then the case of the number and the countable object agree (including the plural forms of all cases).
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Prantsis » 2017-06-15, 12:29

ainurakne wrote:
ghostie wrote:Tere! Küsin kaks väikest küsimust.

ghostie wrote:Arvud on osastavas käändes! ("Üks" aga nimetavas käändes, jah?)

Ma küsin kaks, kolm, neli... küsimust.
Ma küsin ühe küsimuse. (Mitte: üks küsimus)

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2017-06-15, 13:19

Prantsis wrote:
ainurakne wrote:
ghostie wrote:Tere! Küsin kaks väikest küsimust.

ghostie wrote:Arvud on osastavas käändes! ("Üks" aga nimetavas käändes, jah?)
Oh, I didn't even realize the question was about that specific sentence. Thanks!

In sentences "küsin (ühe) küsimuse." and "Küsin kaks küsimust.", "üks küsimus" and "kaks küsimust" are objects. Objects use either partitive or accusative case.

In case of partitive ("Küsin (üht(e)) küsimust.", "Küsin kaht(e) küsimust.") you are talking about the question as a partial object. As if you are asking only part of the question(s) or you are currently in the middle of the process of asking.

For whole objects (finished/bounded action performed on the object) you use accusative case. In case of "üks küsimus", accusative looks like genitive, hence: "Küsin ühe küsimuse."
But "kaks küsimust" is inherently plural. Plural accusative always looks like nominative (even if plural form isn't used), that's why "kaks" remains "kaks" (nominative singular). And singular nominative number (which is larger than one) requires the countable object to use singular partitive (küsimus -> küsimust), hence: "Küsin kaks küsimust."
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Prantsis » 2017-06-18, 22:59

ainurakne wrote:But "kaks küsimust" is inherently plural.

Sometimes I feel that inherence moves in mysterious ways.

"Viimased kaks päeva" −−> "(Mäletan) viimast kahte päeva", "viimase kahe päeva (jooksul)"... When viimane comes before kaks, is the plural correct only in the nominative form?

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2017-06-19, 6:15

Hmm :hmm:
Prantsis wrote:"(Mäletan) viimast kahte päeva", "viimase kahe päeva (jooksul)"
I would rather say "(Mäletan) kaht(e) viimast päeva" and "kahe viimase päeva (jooksul)".

I may be wrong, but for me at least "viimast kaht(e) päeva" and "viimase kahe päeva" look/sound like colloquial reorderings. At least they seem to have the exact same meanings as their reordered counterparts. While "viimased kaks päeva" and "kaks viimast päeva" feel like they have a bit different shades of meaning.

"viimaseid kaht(e)" sounds weird to me and I think I have never used it (I always choose an alternative if I'm not sure; "kaht(e) viimast" in this case). Although, I did find instances of "viimaseid kaht(e)" when doing a Google search (and quite many of them; that may mean nothing though, since it's the internet), so it could be valid.
"viimaste kahe" sounds even more weirder, although I found even some instances of that.

I guess, always using plural forms of "viimane" when placing it before a (plural) number, could be the actual valid usage, but in that case it is falling out of or has almost fallen out of usage in present day Estonian (and being replaced with singular forms of "viimane" like in your example sentences).
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Prantsis » 2017-06-19, 16:23

So the grammar is intact, great!
Indeed, I tried to figure out how to decline "viimased kaks" by searching on google...
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2017-07-28, 7:35

Can someone help with this song? There's this one part I can't hear/understand.

I think the first verse is "uni tule rutuga et magama ma jään" but what comes after it? I hear it every time as "sen kataen oma tekiga" which can't be right... I think it could be katan oma tekiga, but I just can't hear the first word as anything else than "sen". :|
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2017-07-28, 8:01

Naava wrote:I think the first verse is "uni tule rutuga et magama ma jään" but what comes after it? I hear it every time as "sen kataen oma tekiga" which can't be right... I think it could be katan oma tekiga, but I just can't hear the first word as anything else than "sen". :|
I'm not sure either, it's really difficult to hear the words.

I would have guessed "sind katan oma tekiga", but looking at the original, it seems to be a little different: song and lyrics.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2017-07-28, 10:01

Yeah I found the original song (and lyrics) too! :) It's a pretty song. Is it a real lullaby or made up by Jaan Tätte?

But it looks like she's remembered some words incorrectly or changed them deliberately because she definitely sings "ma jään" rather than "jääks" and "olen homme parem kui olin eile" is "tuleb homme parem kui oli eile" for her. That's why I think it's possible she does say sind even though that's not what is in the original lyrics. She could swallow the final -d* and she sings in a... can I say she sings in a lax way? :lol: A bit breathy, sleepy manner, so that the pronunciation is not super exact. (Like the täna at 0:39 sounds almost like "täno" or "tänu" to me!)
So it might be sind but pronounced almost like sen(d), I think?

*I think she swallows letters elsewhere, too, like that "väsimus must läks" sounds like she'd say "väsimus us läes" at 0:20. :P
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-07-28, 14:05

Naava wrote:Yeah I found the original song (and lyrics) too! :) It's a pretty song. Is it a real lullaby or made up by Jaan Tätte?

But it looks like she's remembered some words incorrectly or changed them deliberately because she definitely sings "ma jään" rather than "jääks" and "olen homme parem kui olin eile" is "tuleb homme parem kui oli eile" for her. That's why I think it's possible she does say sind even though that's not what is in the original lyrics. She could swallow the final -d* and she sings in a... can I say she sings in a lax way? :lol: A bit breathy, sleepy manner, so that the pronunciation is not super exact. (Like the täna at 0:39 sounds almost like "täno" or "tänu" to me!)
So it might be sind but pronounced almost like sen(d), I think?

*I think she swallows letters elsewhere, too, like that "väsimus must läks" sounds like she'd say "väsimus us läes" at 0:20. :P


It's basically an old campfire song, I think. Online I found references to people singing it at summer camps and scout campfires here, here, here, and here.

So as can be expected from a traditional campfire song, there are different versions - here's one from 1935:
Nüüd, uni, tule rutuga, et magama ma jääks.
Ja kata oma tiivaga, et väsimus mul läeks.
Ole homme parem kui olid eile!
Ole homme parem kui olid täna!

What I noticed is that the different versions have different intents, for example, in Jaan Tätte's version the lyrics are focused on the singer, in the campfire version the lyrics are instructions and in Naava's Youtube version the lyrics are meant to be sung to reassure someone else.

Jaan Tätte's version about the singer's own own future: "olen homme parem kui olin eile" - "I will be better tomorrow than I was yesterday,", "olen homme parem kui olin täna" - "I will be better tomorrow than I was today."

The 1935 version is mostly sung as instructions: "Ja kata oma tiivaga" - "And cover [me] with your wings" (this part is addressed to "Uni" - Sleep) / "Ole homme parem kui olid eile!" - "be better tomorrow than you were yesterday!" (addressed to the group of singers and anyone listening, I assume) and so on.

The Youtube version you posted, Naava, seems to be changed for singing as a lullaby to a child. "Sind katan oma tekiga" - "I cover you with your blanket", "Tuleb homme parem kui eile!" - "Tomorrow will be better than yesterday!"
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2017-07-30, 8:59

Linguaphile wrote:What I noticed is that the different versions have different intents, for example, in Jaan Tätte's version the lyrics are focused on the singer, in the campfire version the lyrics are instructions and in Naava's Youtube version the lyrics are meant to be sung to reassure someone else.

You're right - I know a few (folk) songs with slightly different lyrics (e.g. a lullaby where some people sing "I saw your new gate", some sing "this is how I knew your gate" and so on) but usually the message is pretty much the same. I can see why Uni tule rutuga has these three versions, oli and olid and olin are not that far away from each other, but imo it changes the meaning a lot.

Is it used as a lullaby nowadays or is it well-known at all? What Estonian lullabies there are that are popular? Are these even questions about Estonian anymore?
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby ainurakne » 2017-08-03, 6:16

Naava wrote:Is it used as a lullaby nowadays or is it well-known at all? What Estonian lullabies there are that are popular? Are these even questions about Estonian anymore?
I don't know, actually I think I hadn't even heard the song before you brought it up here. Also, I'm not currently in a mood to do any research... sorry! :oops:

From my early childhood, I remember this, although with a bit different words. It sounded more rhyme-y back then.

From the same page, "Uinu, mu väsinud lind" and "Väikesed lapsed kõik magavad juba" are also familiar. I think the latter is still used on some radio station where it's always played after the evening story for children.
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2017-08-03, 7:27

Thanks!
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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Linguaphile » 2017-08-08, 1:35

Naava wrote:Estonian lullabies

I'm not sure how often these are actually sung to put babies to sleep nowadays, but they are based on old folksongs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfELY98Pjqchttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tAyFm2VtaU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FT9iWjXW5g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8Fad72QOiM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pDmQFqlWX8

And for what it's worth, I happened across a Livonian one too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry5aZnlYTOY
Learning is a treasure that follows its owner everywhere. El aprendizaje es un tesoro que sigue a su dueño por todas partes. Õpitu on aare, mis saadab oma omanikku kõikjal. Lernen ist ein Schatz, der seinem Besitzer überallhin folgt. L'apprentissage est un trésor qui suit son propriétaire partout. Txoj kev kawm yog cov khoom muaj nqis, uas raws nws tus tswv qhov txhia chaw. Op'minõ om aarõq, miä saat uma umanikku egäl puul.

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Re: Küsimus eesti keele kohta / Questions about Estonian

Postby Naava » 2017-08-08, 6:35

Thanks! I didn't know Estonians sing 'tuu tuu' to their kids too!

Is that mina laulan lapselleni possessive suffix?

//Are the regilaul and uni tule silma peale sung in some dialect?
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